I have been concerned for some time about the push to impose christian teaching on all Americans. The push by the white, christian nationalists has been aided by the Supreme Court, and the SC will apparently no longer protect the separation of church and state. Sadly the Catholic bishops have joined with the right-wing evangelicals to do this - saying that non-religious, for-profit businesses can discriminate against gays (so that means they can discriminate on anyone else, based on their religious beliefs), that prayer can be imposed on football players at a Washington state public school (the coercion is not out loud - not a spoken order - , but implied and the players felt pressured to join in or sit on the bench), including pushing at the state/local level for tax money to fund Catholic schools.
I read two articles this week about the push for "integralism" in the Catholic church. Basically it's a push to officially impose christian beliefs on ALL Americans. A conference at Steubenville was quite open about this intention. Yes - Steubenville is known for its exstremism both in secular and RCC matters, but even I am shocked that they now feel that they can be this open about their intentions.
America also ran an article about integralism, but apparently isn't totally on board.
A definition from America - Integralism, for those new to the conversation, is an interpretation of Catholic teaching that advocates for the direct subordination of political authority to the church.
https://www.ncronline.org/news/new-right-academics-argue-biblical-lawmaking-steubenville-conference
https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2022/10/17/integralism-church-and-state-243966
Of course Scott Hahn was one of the speakers. Extracts from the Steubenville conference
Several speakers articulated a vision of the United States ... where traditional Christian morality is restored to a central place in society and mainstream culture, and where leaders in government are comfortable using political power to enforce those religious values and punish "woke" progressives.
"Overt biblically grounded lawmaking, a concomitant biblically informed constitutional jurisprudence, and an approach to God in the public square that we might think of as an ecumenical integralism, represents our only hope for recovery at this late hour in our ailing, decadent republic," Josh Hammer, a Newsweek opinion editor, said during one panel discussion.....
Though the U.S. Constitution's First Amendment prohibits the establishment of an official state religion, several of the conference's Catholic speakers articulated their dissatisfaction with a religiously neutral American civil society...
"Another world is possible, namely, Hungary," said Gladden Pappin, a University of Dallas political scientist who has lauded the regime of Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban, a populist authoritarian who has been criticized in western Europe for turning Hungary into an "illiberal democracy" where freedoms of the press and judiciary are curtailed.....
The EU has issued a (toothless for now) rebuke of Hungary -
The EU is also considering withholding more than $7 billion in funding from Hungary due to the extensive corruption in the government. Trump worked to use our government to enrich his family and close friends, as well as himself, and Orban has done the same in Hungary. No mention here either of Orban's publicly stated desire to keep non-christians, especially Muslims, out of Hungary. So CPAC held their annual conference in Hungary to learn how they can accomplish the same thing in the US -and, of course, welcomed him with open arms as speaker at their meeting here this summer
Mary Imparato, chairwoman of political science at Belmont Abbey College, recalled a trip to Washington as a young woman where she said she found herself disagreeing with other Catholic students who were not comfortable with the idea of contraception being banned by law or an image of the Virgin Mary one day replacing the Statue of Freedom atop the U.S. Capitol building.
Seriously - this woman thinks contraception should be banned and a statue of Mary should stand on too of the US Capitol?
But - there is a surprising element to all of this - they praise the New Deal! And condemn some of capitalism's excesses. Interesting. The economic platform is a mish-mash of liberal and conservative notions. I would think that the farm debacle rooted in trump's trade war - a totally predictable and avoidable debacle - would have taught them that lots of tariffs are NOT a good idea!
Attributed to Sinclair Lewis: "When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross". When that day comes for America, I hope we, at least, have what the Germans had, a Confessing Church. Things took a bad turn in the fourth century when Constantine granted state approval and allied with the Church. We're supposed to be "not of this world" but "the world" may have won that round.
ReplyDeleteI'm always sorry to hear about Catholics getting on the "Christianity for All" bandwagon. I used to think they were, with a few deviants like Fr Coughlin, pretty much above that.
ReplyDeleteOne thing for sincere people of faith to make cases against abortion, death penalty, gay marriage, etc. that everybody gets to consider. Another thing when "Christian values" are made compulsory without a hearing. It seems unAmerican and probably waters down faith.
I don't get the fascination with Orban. He just comes across like a garden variety bully. Of course that apparently is what some people like. Until it's directed at them. And we have our quintessential former president.
ReplyDeleteI wish people who think integralism is such a great idea would study a little American history. The founding fathers weren't all Christian believers in the sense evangelicals think of it. The most that could be said about some of them was that they were deists. I think there were only one, maybe two, Catholic signers of the Declaration of Independence. Freedom from religion as well as freedom of religion were founding values.
One reason they like Orban is because he IS a bully, who has managed to become an authoritarian ruler with no significant pushback from the citizens. He is keeping the undesirables ( in their minds) out and openly promising to keep Hungary white and christian. This is what the conservatives wanted trump to do in a second term, and the GOP is working hard to make sure the MAGA party controls Congress and the White House in 2024, even if it’s not trump but a policy clone like DeSantis. They will help the MAGA president weaken free elections and the free press by following the Hungary blueprint, increase the power of the president to authoritarian levels, and they really don’t seem to have to worry that the SC will hinder their plans. This SC has been bought and paid for by MAGA. This is why real conservatives like David French are urging legitimate Republicans to hold their noses and vote for the Dems for EVERY office, including at the state level. The state level is just as important as Congress because it’s where an attempt to overthrow election results could happen, only this time they are working to have laws n place that will make it legal to do the things they tried in 2020, like substitute their own electors for those of the real winner.
DeleteRe: Steubenville, they are facing their own crisis. I had thought they were Catholic central. Turns out there aren't that many Catholics in that are of Ohio, and they are a small diocese with financial troubles. They are facing a merger with the Columbus, Ohio diocese. That was sprung on their clergy by their bishop rather lately, and has left them feeling that the rug was pulled out from under them.
ReplyDeleteThere has been speculation for some time that Steubenville which was carved out of Columbus and Youngstown which was carved out of Cleveland will be merged back into their original dioceses. There was some speculation of merging them together to ward off the inevitable but that is not going to happen.
DeleteYoungstown sends its seminarians to Cleveland and has a priest on its seminar faculty, look for it to be next.
There has been speculation for some time that Rome will begin to fold smaller dioceses back into their original or larger dioceses.
While there evidently was little consultation with the people of the diocese, there was consultation with the other bishops of Ohio who have approved the deal.
Steubenville was known mainly for its conservative university which should be right at home in Columbus. They have a new young bishop who has achieved notoriety by sending the liberal Paulists packing form the Ohio State campus and installing his own priest with a conservative agenda.
I guess I don't really understand the advantage of folding dioceses into bigger ones. Maybe saving on administrative costs? Our Nebraska dioceses used to be one big one, also I think including part of Wyoming. That was pioneer era, over a hundred years ago. But each of the dioceses have their own characteristics. Everyone knows Lincoln is ulrtraconservative. Omaha is more middle of the road. Grand Island is more liberal, I think because they never really got out of pioneer mode. Their moto seems to be, do whatever it takes to get 'er done. Lincoln and Grand Island are suffragans of the Omaha archdiocese. They work well together, and help each other. But I think it wouldn't work to fold them together, because they are different, and their priests went through different formation programs. They aren't interchangeable like pieces on a checker board.
DeleteThe key factor in consolidating dioceses is the number of priests. In the case of Steubenville, it is clear that there will no longer be enough to go around no matter how much consolidation of parishes is done. The bishop simply recognized that it would have to be done in ten years so why not do it now.
DeleteAs for diocesan administration, most dioceses are phasing that over to laity to free up priests for parishes.
As for the parochial character of dioceses and parishes, I am not sure that is such a blessing. It works well for some priests and some laity, but it also means many gifted people are not called to serve within their narrow frameworks.
The Gospel of the Publican and the Tax collector sums up Jesus’ attitude toward all self- satisfaction with religious projects either in church or society.
ReplyDeleteToday is also Mission Sunday, and the Notre Dame Mass had the priest who is the Holy Cross Fathers coordinator for missionary efforts do the preaching.
A very impressive resume of missionary efforts of diverse types (healthcare, education, etc.) across a wide diversity of nations! All of the sorts of people who are not high on the priority list of our Christian nationalists. Again, no matter how impressive and worthy our missionary efforts and care for humanity, they can always give rise to the temptation that Francis calls “spiritual worldliness” that they become pursuit of money, prestige, and power under the guise of religion. Francis believes that is worse than pursuing money, prestige, and power for their own sake.
I see that Cardinal Parolin, the Vatican secretary of state, took EWTN to task for lack of unity with the pope.
DeleteAnne, thanks for that link re: the Steubenville conference. I mentioned to a friend: I think what they are pushing is bad political philosophy and bad Catholic theology.
ReplyDeleteMy view: all of us disciples are called to proclaim the Good News. We have significant - not utterly unconstrained, but still significant - freedom to do so in the United States, unconstrained by government or institutional coercion. I'd oppose any effort to change that.
I don't agree that the Supreme Court is part of the problem here. Overturning Roe vs. Wade is not some plot to impose religious values on everyone else. It's simply an effort to correct a disastrously bad prior decision. We should all cheer its deep-sixing.
Scott Hahn and Rusty Reno, two of the presenters at the Steubenville conference, are converts. I don't know whether any others are converts, but I'd think the notion of making the United States subordinate to Christianity has more currency among Evangelicals than Catholics.
DeleteJim, it’s not just Roe v Wade. They have cracked open the door to abuses of people’s civil rights, to permitting tax money to be used to fund religious schools, and to permitting prayer in public schools. This year’s cases will show how far they are prepared to go to further the goals of the christian nationalists. It seems likely that the door will be pushed wide open, and separation of church and state will be at risk, along with religious liberty for the millions of Americans who don’t share the religious beliefs of conservative christians.
DeleteNot sure whether this is behind a paywall, but it's another point of view re: Christian nationalism.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.nationalreview.com/magazine/2022/10/31/confessions-of-a-christian-nationalist/?utm_source=recirc-desktop&utm_medium=homepage&utm_campaign=top-of-nav&utm_content=hero-module
Sadly it's paywalled. I gather some of the article tackles the vexing question of how one defines "Christian nationalist."
DeleteI find labels increasingly hard to navigate and adding to obfuscation in public discourse. They seem to be rooted in trying to demonize the "other side" or passing themselves off as oppressed victims.
In my neck of the woods, we have school board candidates running on a platform of being "against all that CRT and woke sh*t in the school library."
When you ask exactly what in the library is woke or pushes CRT, you're seen as a goad of some kind, and they turn on you with questions like, "You want your kid learning how to be gay books and thinking he might be a girl???"
The left does similar things with its purity tests.
I am not sure how a debate or discussion is even possible when people are content to fling names at each other.
I was able to access the article, apparently I hadn't used up my free articles yet. I actually thought it was good.
DeleteI'll copy and paste a couple of paragraphs which seem relevant to the discussion:
"Fundamentally, Whitehead and Perry pathologize religious traditionalists, using vague statements to spread a wide net and then connecting everyone in it to obviously bad phenomena such as the January 6 Capitol riots. Their approach leaves no theoretical space for the possibility that some Christians might have principled, complex positions on church and state. For progressives this may be a fun exercise in confirmation bias, but they’ve probably revealed more about themselves than about the people they claim to be studying."
"...By caricaturing religious traditionalists as prejudiced, panicked illiberals, they may make it easier to ignore how much has been lost. If that’s true, then the challenge for religious traditionalists is to articulate a vision of the future that is appealing, unapologetic, and non-exclusionary. This will require us to answer some hard questions. Traditions normally help people to do that. It is more difficult than ever today to draw appropriate lines between church and state, but that’s all the more reason to be judicious and circumspect in our discussions of faith and freedom."
Thanks, Katherine.
DeleteI'm a progressive of sorts, but I think traditions are great. They undergird culture, prosperity, and stability. But like any good floor, tradition has to have some flexibility. Without tolerance, goodwill, and willingness to accept that things change, the whole structure becomes brittle and collapses.
But I'm basically just rambling without any real idea of what the article says or where Jim wanted to go in referring to it.
Considering where our country seems to be headed, I think separation of Christianity and state would be good for Christianity. At this point, I identify more as a Christian than as an American. Christianity for me has depth, in its spiritual tradition, not necessarily in its managers. I have come to doubt the validity of the American ideals. Fifty years ago, I thought we were in a bad place but heading to a better place. Now it seems we're going from bad to worse. I don't see anything in the collective character of the American people that will elect leaders who will take us in the right direction. PA Democratic candidates Fetterman (for Senator) and Cartwright (for representative) have voiced support for fracking. I voted for them already but they're pandering to the short term thinking of just about everybody.
DeleteBTW. The OZ vs. Fetterman debate just ended. I think Fetterman's stroke put him at a disadvantage. He locked up at times. I would have asked Turkish citizen OZ if he believed in the Armenian genocide. I didn't watch all the debate but I doubt if it came up.
Stanley, good point that lack of separation of Christianity and state hurts Christianity.
DeleteTangential re tradition: As I understand it, Catholics teach that Holy Tradition along with Holy Scripture, are the pillars on which the faith rests.
DeleteAnglicans claim that faith, tradition, and reason are their foundation, a three legged stool able to stand even on uneven ground.
My sense is that conscience is the Catholic stand-in for reason, but conscience is seen as subordinate, not equal to, scripture and tradition. Conscience must be informed by scripture and tradition, and converts are too "young" in the Church to be able to diverge from them.
I no longer trust much of what I learned in RCIA or my understanding of it, just based on the corrections I get over here. So am wondering if this sounds correct to you cradle Catholics.
Rather than pester you all with my remedial attempts at faith instruction, I have thought about going to a different parish if/when gathering feels safe to audit RCIA as a do-over. I am inundated with book reading suggestions, but reading somebody else's ideas about God without a chance to ask questions doesn't work for me. I get bored without engagement.
One of my daughters in law was thinking of converting prior to she and my son getting married. Like you, she had a lot of questions and wanted to ask them in an environment where questioning wasn't discouraged. She did some research and ended up in the Creighton University parish RCIA. Which of course featured Jesuits who weren't at all afraid of questions. It was a good fit for her. Is there a Jesuit college or university anywhere near you?
DeleteI think you are correct that conscience is the RC third leg. Of course one wants a well informed conscience, but ultimately I don't think it's subordinate. The VII documents of Dignitatis Humanae and Gaudium et Spes discuss it. Of course EWTN and company try to walk the teaching back and put it back in the tube, but actually the idea of primacy of conscience predates VII.
Thanks, but I would have to drive a couple hours to metro Detroit to find any Jesuits. Certainly not feasible to audit an entire RCIA class during Michigan winter in the shape I'm in.
DeleteCatholics do not make it easy to find help, but, then, maybe that's the point. Some of us will not find the Narrow Gate or be able to pass through if we do find it. I am guessing lots of us get stuck at the entrance and will spend eternity muttering to ourselves.
I think it is a matter of resources being spread thin over long distances in rural or smaller town areas. It is the same here. If I wanted to audit something at Creighton it would be a good two hour drive to get there. They do have some good online resources. Maybe that type of thing is something to look at.
DeleteJean, I recall that Crystal Watson became Catholic after doing the online Ignatian Spiritual Exercises at Creighton. She lives in California and it was all virtual. She mentioned that a Jesuit guided her and mentored her. Perhaps you could contact one of the people who oversee that program and someone might help you. Post- Covid, there might even be an online RCIA class run by someone who,isn’t afraid of disagreement with whatever teachings one has trouble with. If there is, make sure it’s run by a Jesuit older than 60. :)
DeleteI’m sure the priest would be happy to help you then! But when I have tried to get clarification from priests or other professional Catholics I learned that they could do little more than parrot the official teachings in the catechism, or bishops’ websites, or their seminary professors. When pressed with more questions for clarifying teachings, they were helpless- couldn’t answer them. When I did disagree, stating my reasons for questioning the validity of a teaching, they became almost angry. They had obviously never thought very deeply about the doctrines/teachings that I had questions about, and were upset that I wouldn’t simply accept “with docility” what I was told.
DeleteSo, perhaps you simply want the “must believe” teachings, and the “this is the official teaching - for what it’s worth- but not a must believe” clarified as to which teachings fall where. As a Catholic, exactly what are you supposed to believe? That’s where I started - and I found that none of the people I spoke with knew the answer. Hence, cafeteria Catholicism apparently is fine with one or two exceptions. At the moment thé must believes seem to be - being pro-choice is a mortal sin; God does not want women to be priests; and it is ok to discriminate against gay people.
BTW, Katherine is right about what the church teaches about conscience. It’s a carefully hidden teaching among those who usually cite the catechism, chapter and verse. If the catechism is quoted to them, they will say that dissent from anything the church teaches is prima facie evidence that one hasn’t “properly” formed one’s conscience because dissent would be impossible if one had. That rather absurd claim essentially nullifies the meaning of primacy of conscience.
My advice stands - find an older Jesuit. There are exceptions, but generally they are far better educated than most parish priests, far more capable of higher level thinking, and often pretty good teachers. After all, they chose an order known for its dedication to education.
I always thought the basic "must believes" were the articles of the Nicene Creed.
DeleteThanks everyone. I know you are trying to be helpful.
DeleteBut apparently we haven’t been. ;).
DeleteYou are Avery smart woman.you will find a way.
I can’t get past the paywall either. However, I have read several articles by Rachel Lu at the America site and she came across to me as a soulless right winger, utterly lacking in insight and compassion for others.
ReplyDeleteI would be curious to know exactly what she is advocating.
Anne, in this particular article I think she is just advocating not lumping all believers who are somewhat traditional in the same category with Jan. 6 insurrectionists and election deniers, that there is a lot of complexity to the church and state issues.
DeleteYah, just a suggestion that if you're going to refer to articles behind a paywall, summarize the point you want to make instead of just dumping the link so we (i.e., I) don't make fools of ourselves trying to guess what yr point is.
ReplyDeleteYeah, sorry, I wasn't sure whether or not it was behind a paywall. Honestly, I didn't think it was that awesome. I just happened to run across it and it seemed to be on-topic so I provided a link. When I think there are worthwhile things in an article to call people's attention to, I generally do paste quotes.
DeleteI was able to read her article by changing devices and browsers. I still had 2 free articles left. I do not have the time right now to give my full critique of her article. As usual she is slick, not giving much in the way of factual information, but relying on disingenuous I’m so reasonable, definitely not an extremist statements that do not give any real information. The questions are few and she hints at how she answered then by providing the score category. She deflects - maybe Muslims and Jews don’t mind if christian symbols are in public places - which symbols ? which public places? She doesn’t say. She is similarly vague about her definition of “tradition(s)” and “traditional”. It is not Muslims and Jews who are pushing to destroy the boundaries between church and state under the guise of “religious freedom”.
ReplyDeleteAll here can answer the questions themselves and see where they fall. I expect that it will all depend on one’s interpretation of the questions. They can be interpreted in different ways. I suppose one has to read the book to know if the questions are explained in precise terms. I have copied the questions and scoring from another article. And I give my own answer. The article provides a bit of a breakdown describing some characteristics of those scoring in the different groups. The article is not behind a paywall.
6 Questions
Whitehead and Perry’s research has led them to establishing a Christian nationalism scale, built around 6 questions from the Baylor Religion Study. Let’s find out where you land and what it means.
Answer the following 6 questions with:
Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Unsure
Agree
Strongly Agree
The federal government should declare the United States a Christian nation - strongly disagree
The federal government should advocate Christian values - unsure. Not enough information about these. Love your neighbor ? Do unto others? Welcome the stranger and care for the poor? Maybe defined in the book. But - these are not exclusively christian values so I’m not sure what they are referring to here. The values on the Statue of Liberty are traditional American values, but are not embraced by conservative Americans these days.
The federal government should enforce strict separation of church and state - strongly agree.
The federal government should allow the display of religious symbols in public spaces - unsure. Some should be «grandfathered » as historical pieces. Maybe. Very easy for people to abuse this . But no religious symbols in most public places - schools, courthouses, all public buildings, parks etc.. Ok in military cemeteries
The success of the United States is part of God’s plan - strongly disagree. The reason should be obvious on multiple levels.
The federal government should allow prayer in public schools - strongly disagree. Question #1 - Whose prayers?
Now that you answered the 6 questions above, here is how you score each question.
For questions 1, 2, 4, 5, 6: 0 — Strongly Disagree, 1 — Disagree, 2 — Unsure, 3 — Agree, 4 — Strongly Agree
Question 3 (the Separation of Church and State one) is reverse scored, so it is: 4 — Strongly Disagree 3 — Disagree 2 — Unsure 1 — Agree 0 — Strongly Agree
Add up your scores above and see where you landed on the scale: 0–5 Rejecter 6–11 Resister 12–17 Accomodator 18–24 Ambassador
Full article at this link
https://cjtackett.medium.com/the-christian-nationalism-scale-and-what-it-means-6f2969c6dd4e
Thanks Anne, interesting. I scored 9, placing me in the resister camp.
DeleteI'm a 11, also resister. I am a sucker for quizzes, but not sure that six questions adequately reflect my views on Church and state. I was surprised to be so close to the accommodaters.
DeleteThe entire article gives helpful information about who falls where - demographics, religion, political preferences etc.
DeleteI just did the quiz in my head. I'm on the borderline between rejecter and resister. I don't want the federal government mandating nor forbidding religious expression.
DeleteI came up 7. Probably because I think the state in its present form is no friend of Jesus. Perhaps no government can be. I prefer that the Constantinian rapprochement be reversed. At best, "Christian nationalism" would only distort and sully what it professes to proclaim.
DeleteStanley, my hang-up was the question about whether the success of the US was part of God's plan. How the heck do I know?
DeleteI strongly disagree with conservative Christians who think God has designated the US as some kind of special case. God wants the "success" (whatever that is) of all nations.
So if I strongly disagreed with the question on that basis, my score would be an 8.
I also strongly disagreed with allowing prayer in school. I assume they mean prayers led by the teachers. Anybody can say prayers in school individually to themselves. I never stepped in front of a classroom in a public university without thanking God for the job and asking God to help me do it well. Never big on grace before meals, but always, always to start the work day.
Anyone is allowed to pray in school privately. That’s completely legal. But prayer cannot be official or led by a teacher or staff member. That’s why the SC decision about the coach in Washington kneeling to pray on the 50 yard line after games raises red flags.. The argument was that he didn’t Overtly order his players to join in. But interviews with players indicated that they felt coerced anyway - that those who didn’t join in might spend more time on the bench than those who did. Apparently there weren’t any players who are members of a minority religion or the pressure would be even worse for them. The coach’s actions were strictly prohibited by the school system’s rules. Yet the SC ruled in his favor. They are taking down the wall between church and state brick by brick. The baker case was not decided on religious freedom, but as a reprimand to the local court. However there is at least one similar case this term that will make clear the SC’s stance about public, for profit businesses being allowed to discriminate against gays based on their “ religious freedom”. The Maine religious schools funding case was also a strong hint that this court will open the door further to allowing tax money to be used for religious schools. The Maine legislature had a workaround ready to go so that their tax money wasn’t used to fund religious schools in rural areas, but the danger from this SC has been clearly demonstrated already. I’m waiting for the right wing christians to scream loudly when some of their tax money is given to a madrasa.
DeleteI dislike public displays of religiosity, and praying on the 50 yard line struck me as trivializing prayer. The coach is a jackass. Should his activity be illegal? I'm not sure it should.
DeleteInstead of running to court, isn't it better to teach kids that they also have rights to religious freedom, which includes standing on the sidelines or going to the lockerroom when Coach starts thanking Jesus for their big win? If Coach or other jocks start ridiculing those who decline to pray with them or curtailing their playing time, then, yup, they've crossed a legal line. I am wary of making things illegal because they merely cause discomfort or embarrassment.
There is a group of local teachers here who have prayer meetings every Wednesday to pray for our schools. It's done before school in a public park, not school grounds. These teachers all go to some Jumpin' Jesus non-denom, so it's partisan even though they say it isn't. I have been asked to attend several times. I have no problem wishing them well and declining. I also have no problem with them praying in the public park.
Jean, the teachers you refer to are not conducting their religious life on school grounds. The coach in Washington was on school grounds immediately following a school sponsored event. Some players felt intimidated into joining. The coach should not have e erred pressure on them, even if not verbally. He knew exactly what he was doing, and he knew it was prohibited behavior, and he k de that some of the players would feel intimidated into joining the pray- ERs. The SC has opened the door now to future non- verbal religious intimidation of public school students. A very bad ruling.
DeleteMy iPad is not hitting well on all letters. I hope that you can fill in the blanks! - exerted, knew
DeleteJean, I think that God has a goal, if not a plan. Generally, the great empires, ours included, make everything wrong and God works in a long arc to fix and redirect our missteps. Or so I hope.
DeleteAnne, I do get where you are coming from. The crux of the biscuit is whether the coach was imposing prayer on students in school. His actions may certainly be construed as encouragement of others to pray in a school-adjacent setting. But if he is not requiring prayer of the kids or discriminating against players who don't join him, I'd say the law is on his side, much as I find his actions distasteful.
DeleteMy assumption is that Coach Kennedy will feel emboldened to push the envelope when he is reinstated.
I also have a deep distrust of people who feel the need to grandstand their religiosity for a crowd. Often they're trying to distract from some private personal problem, or they have a screw loose. I'd watch him like a hawk, and I would not let my kid play on his team.
But firing him for solo prayer on a football field? No, I can't see it unless he's crossed some other line.
Jean, I look at it this way. As far as I know a teacher would not be allowed to kneel in prayer before beginning class, even if not explicitly inviting students to join in. The coach is a teacher and the field is his classroom. His actions did place pressure on the players to join in. So the SC ruling is opening the door to teachers being allowed to lead prayer in public school classrooms. What next? The Catholics should worry - first “Protestant” prayers, next Bible study in class - most likely a “Protestant” Bible with evangelical interpretations. And what of the non- christian students? Will they be expected to take part?
DeleteIt was a bad ruling and will lead to future court fights.
I really don't buy the "domino" arguments. It doesn't seem fair to make rulings based on what people might do in the future. Coach Kennedy is not teaching Bible class or telling his fellow religious nuts to pray in the classroom.
DeleteThe slippery-slope is the argument conservatives use when they object to gay rights, that it will open the door for bestiality and incest.
I don't like what Coach Kennedy is doing, but people have to tolerate stuff they don't like sometimes. And there are ways the boys and parents on the team can show disapproval.
Jean, there is currently a very organized movement to overturn the prohibition against prayer in public schools. It is well funded, and when legal cases arise, there are law firms ready to provide pro bono services to those pushing to break down the walls between church and state. I have read about many efforts to take over school boards. Here is one recent example, one that may havé backfired
Deletehttps://publicwitness.wordandway.org/p/putting-god-on-the-school-board
This danger is evident also in the push, supported by the RCC bishops, to allow tax money to be used to help support private religious schools.
Also - https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/07/supreme-court-religion-schools-prayer-kennedy-carson/661365/
There have been multiple news stories about some public schools in the Bible Belt openly defying the prohibitions regarding prayer (always christian prayer of course. No Praise to Allah though) and testing the boundaries related to bible studies.
I know The Boy is a musician. I don’t know if he was an athlete, especially one who played a varsity sport. All three of our sons were high school varsity athletes. One was a varsity athlete in college, but not in one of the glamour sports (football and basketball). All of my sons felt pressure of different kinds from their coaches. Two went to Catholic high school. Ironically, I don’t believe that their coaches ever led public prayers with their athletes after games. Maybe before but if so, it wasn’t obvious. No kneeling or signs of the cross n the court or field. Maybe in the locker room? But it was a Catholic school, not a public school. I’ll have to ask them. But they always knew what their coaches wanted them to do, could feel certain kinds of pressure, even without explicit verbalization.
I believe that you have a digital subscription to the WaPo. There was a very interesting article about the facts that were ignored by the majority, but which appeared in the minority opinion written by Sotomeyer. The fact that the coach actively sought publicity indicates that this wasn’t just a private thing for him.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/06/29/gorsuch-sotomayor-praying-coach/
One more - I definitely don’t want my taxes to support private schools like this one.
Deletehttps://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/08/kennedy-vs-bremerton-scotus-religion-church-state/671063/
Nor do I want tax money supporting schools that teach that women are to be subservient to men, supporting roles only, in the family and church, which includes the RCC.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/08/kennedy-vs-bremerton-scotus-religion-church-state/671063/
For the most part I agree that it is inappropriate for tax money to support religious schools ( actually any private schools). However I do subscribe to a "sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander" point of view. In the Maine situation my understanding was that tax money was used to support secular private schools under certain circumstances. The SCOTUS ruling was that religious schools couldn't be excluded under the same circumstances. Which seems fair enough. Also it seems fair that any schools accepting tax money should accept certain conditions, such as accreditation and nondiscrimination..
DeleteKatherine, it’s not good at all to fund religious schools with tax money. Reread the Atlantic article for why. The discrimination practiced by the religious schools is the loophole that Maine is currently using to keep tax money from religious schools. But it should be an absolute principle that religious schools do not ever qualify for taxpayer funding, so that states don’t have to find loopholes.
DeleteKatherine, you might also want to think about the fact that a number of conservative protestant religions teach anti- Catholic beliefs such as the Pope is the anti- Christ, Catholics are idol worshippers - they worship statues, etc. Do you really want your tax money supporting these kinds of religious schools?
DeleteFair enough, if they also exclude other private schools. I am thinking of those such as the for-profit charter schools chain owned by the DeVos family. To me those aren't any better than the fundie Protestant ones.
DeleteI'm saying that even though one of my sons works for a now-secular, (used to be Episcopal school). I'm not thinking the people who send their kids there have to worry about funding much though.
Katherine, the for profit private schools are usually a scam. The reason Maine was giving money to some secular private schools is because there are no public schools available within a reasonable distance in some in these rural areas. If the private schools discriminate against gays or anyone else as the Catholic and christian schools do, they won’t get tax money either under the workaround law that Maine crafted. But opening the door to tax money use in religious schools is a very bad idea, one that some who push for it may regret in the future.
DeleteThe for- profit “colleges” and “universities “ are an even bigger scam than the for profit private k- 12. A very disproportionate percentage of student loan debt is the result of those outfits luring people to sign up, promising a degree and professional job opportunities on graduation, and easy to finance, as they help them complete the federally guaranteed student loan applications. Most of those phony schools are accredited by almost as phony accreditation groups (one just went bankrupt and brought down a chain of the for- profit outfits with them. ) The feds really need to stop guaranteeing loans for these institutions that have relatively few actually graduate even in 8 years (most are part- time, online or in an office building with night classes, part of the appeal for those working in poorly paid, dead- end jobs). A couple of other for- profit “universities” that have folded in recent years have generated lawsuits. Unfortunately many who belatedly decide a high school degree isn’t enough these days seem unaware of a far better, and cheaper, alternative. First - the community colleges now offer many night classes as well as online. They should start there. The counselors can guide the students to a curriculum that will transfer credits to a four year state college should they wish to go beyond an AA or specialized certificate program. Most community college systems have reasonable tuitions, and some are free. At the 4 year state college they can continue to take classes at night or online, and get a legitimate Bachelors that really might help their future career opportunities. A friend of our son was a star athlete and total party boy in high school. After he graduated he traveled around taking minimum wage jobs. He ended up in Hawaii eventually, unable to afford to rent any kind of apartment and sleeping under the lifeguard stands until the police told him he would be arrested if he continued to do that. He came back to Maryland and enrolled in a legitimate state school, doing his degree online, while working part- time.
After that he found a specialized management Masters ( Sports Event Management) at another state’s university and got an MBA. Online but totally legit and affordable. He was then hired by the US Olympic Committee and moved to Colorado. He has had a great career since, moving around to run major world competitions, living in Australia, Switzerland, and now in Germany. Only minimal student loan debt, that he has paid off. But too many are unaware of their options and get lured in by slick advertising.
Yes, there are religious nuts with $$ and law firms ready to turn themselves into prayer martyrs. Coach Kennedy seems to be one of them.
DeleteBut that is beside the point of the case.
Where is the demonstrable evidence that moves the needle from Coach having an individual prayer to him coercing kids into unwanted religious activity?
A bunch of kids saying that they felt like Coach wanted them to pray with him and they didn't much care for it is not evidence of coercion. People cannot sic the law on others because they have some sort of creepy feeling. That woman in Central Park got a creepy feeling when a black man asked her to leash her dog. That's not evidence he was doing anything wrong.
I doubt the park woman felt fear. I think she was upset to have her highness' insensitivity called out by a man, black at that. Time to call in an air strike by the forces of law and order to set the universe right side up once more. Could have gone many other ways. He could have been killed.
DeleteThe Berkeley Center at Georgetown has several articles addressing aspects of this. There is no paywall. The linked to article provides links to the other articles.
ReplyDeletehttps://berkleycenter.georgetown.edu/responses/white-christian-nationalism-the-deep-story-behind-the-capitol-insurrection
I am for both freedom of religion and the separation of church and state.
ReplyDeleteIn general, I am against concentration of power. So, I like the separation of powers among the executive, legislative and judiciary, the balance between federal and state authority.
Likewise, I like the tension between church and state. Religious people should be critical of the state, but also there should be limits to what a religion can do. The state needs to intervene in situations such as sexual abuse, and financial abuse in religious organizations.
When I was a child in public schools, I experienced prayer as a Protestant institution. Therefore, I was glad when they did away with required prayer. On the other hand, the attempt to do away with too much religious expression in public schools went too far. Around Christmas time in the Painesville Post Office, they display “holiday” art by school children, except that not one single piece has anything to do with Christmas. The recent “secular” public schools became just as hostile to my Catholic experience as the ‘Protestant” public schools had been in my youth.
Where is the expression of religious diversity in public schools (and elsewhere in society) implied in both freedom or religion and separation of church and state?
I don’t think that we need to protect people with no religion from feeling left out. There are plenty of other values, e.g., truth, beauty and goodness that seem to me to be appropriately expressed along with religious values. One can read a poem rather than recite a prayer. There is a lot of literature that has the dignity and value of scripture. There is beautiful secular as well as religious music. All should be shared. In a society where there are now many "spiritual but not religious" people there should be great liberty to express spirituality (e,g, love of animals) as there is variety in religion.
Good points, Jack.
DeleteJack, imagine how a Jewish child would feel when faced with Christian prayers at school ? Or a Muslim child? A Hindu child? A Native American child? You didn’t like the Protestant prayer, a Christian prayer, that I can’t really imagine is all that different than a Catholic prayer., NO prayer is appropriate in public schools.
DeleteAround here the holiday art is mostly displayed in commercial establishments like grocery stores, local pizza parlor etc, not at the post office, a government building. It’s a very diverse community, so there are kids’ drawings of Christmas trees, and Menorahs, and Kwanzaa symbols. Kids from non- religious homes might do winter scenes. The mall is full of Christmas colors and secular Christmas symbols like a Christmas tree and Santa. But there are also token displays of other celebrations, especially Jewish - usually a huge menorah, and Kwanzaa symbols. But the greeting is Happy Holiday. As it should be everywhere in stores during the winter holidays, but especially in my community where christians are a minority of the population. I have shopped for Christmas presents many times and had a salesperson wearing a hijab or a sari wish me a Happy Holiday. How can this possibly offend some people? Besides, the sales person would have no way of knowing if the white lady at the counter is christian or Jewish or nothing in particular. But the customer is probably celebrating a holiday of some kind, even if it’s a secular Christmas or Hanukkah or just the New Year.
I don't feel obliged to acknowledge holidays to people helping me complete business transactions. If they wish me merry Christmas or happy holidays, I say "thank you" or "you, too."
DeleteYoung people here tend to wind up transactions by saying, "Have a good rest of your day," which always sounds like "havagoodresterday."
God knows I usually need a good rester day!
Saying Thank you or You too is acknowledging the sales person’s greeting. Of course they are required to greet customers politely, and during the holiday period use a greeting that acknowledges the holiday season without being religious.
DeleteUntil O’Reilly and trump and various other right wing types decided that saying Happy Holidays was part of the “War on Christmas “, there was no controversy at all.
I try to remember to greet sales people when shopping, and thank them afterwards. If they have a name tag, I use their name when thanking them. Sometimes they then thank me - a grocery store cashier. I once had a grocery clerk in a store in one of the wealthiest areas not only thank me, but share her experiences. She told me that she was applying to transfer to a store in a different part of the county - not all K Street lawyers, doctors, and lobbyists - where the customers were polite enough to greet her and/or say thank you. She said the usual shoppers in this store didn’t look at her, much less greet her. She felt that she was just part of the equipment, like the cash register. From age 13 through 19, I worked in customer service jobs in my resort community, usually at the cash register. Sales people and cashiers are often the direct targets for abuse from any customer with a gripe about the business. I vowed to never treat sales people or other CS staffers the way I was often treated. Some sales people at cash registers are indifferent, ignoring customers until the customer actively seeks their attention, and are often rude that you interrupted their perusal of their phone, but I still try to be polite to them. That seems to convey the message better than a gripe.
The Boy works in customer service and supervises cashiers at a big indie garden/gift store. He's a people person, but some of the "karen" stories he has, ye gods. People trying to get free stuff or just making up problems because they enjoy the drama and attention.
DeleteStore clerks who give good service appreciate a shout out by name on the business Web site or FB page. Managers absolutely do pay attention to this stuff, and it helps them with pay and promotion. If anybody wanted to help the working stiffs ...
Agreed. I sometimes request a name so that I can send a positive comment to a supervisor. Once I did that at a major chain hotel at a huge airport in Europe when they were dealing with big tour groups, overtired independent tourists etc., often dealing with multiple languages. I was amazed to get a personal email response from the hotel’s general manager thanking me for letting him know about the superior customer service. One of my sons once worked for Marriott near Washington National Airport and also at the checkin desk for US Air when he was in college. The stories he told….He is 6’6” so when a flight was cancelled- or multiple flights because of weather - they always sent him out to make the announcement and be the bad news messenger.
DeleteThanks for the FB suggestion. I never thought about that and will definitely do that in the future.
DeleteStanley, I can get to a number of towns along the MD PA border in 2 hours or less. I am thinking of calling one of the Dem groups to volunteer to drive people to the polls in areas where the vote might be close in a congressional race. Do you have any suggestions? Gettysburg or Chambersburg or Lancaster or York or?..
ReplyDeleteI’m also looking at two VA districts that flipped to blue two years ago and are now running 50-50. Maryland is blue overall, and there is no hope in the red districts. Not close
Anne, I sent a text to inquire. I'll get back to you.
DeleteNo response from the Dems yet, Anne. On the US-down-the-tubes front, a MAGAzoid looking for Nancy Pelosi hit her husband with a hammer. Cops got the attacker, Mr. P had surgery and is supposed to be OK. Well, how many Dems get attacked before someone seeks balance.
DeleteThanks, Stanley. I have decided to head for the Virginia Beach/ Norfolk area. The race there is a dead heat. The incumbent, a Democrat, flipped the seat two years ago, a big surprise. A niece who lived with us for several months when she was in college just moved there in August, We became fairly close when she lived here and I would like to see her. So I hope to head south and will pray for a decent outcome in Pennsylvania.
DeleteSounds good, Anne. Have a safe trip.
Delete