However, many Republicans, including President Trump, have not rejected this policy and in fact have doubled down on it with specious arguments, prevarications, and false equivalence. His defenders and water-carriers parrot his arguments and invent some of their own. One of the prime justifications and examples of a false equivalence is the one which says, "If a citizen commits a crime and is incarcerated, they are going to be separated from their children. How is this any different?"
From this excellent article by Doug Mataconis:
"During her appearances on Sunday morning television yesterday, White
She argued that the practice is not unlike the separation of families when a parent in the United States commits a crime and is sent to jail."To start with, someone who is convicted of, to pick an example, armed robbery isn’t sent to prison unless they’ve been found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt by an appropriate tribunal. That is not the case with the people seeking asylum at the border. At best the most they can be charged with is improper entry into the United States which is, generally speaking, a misdemeanor rather than a felony. That offense only becomes a felony in the event that someone has been caught trying to get into the United States illegally multiple times. While it’s possible for someone to be jailed for a misdemeanor it’s not common except in the case of serious violent misdemeanors or if the Defendant has a pre-existing criminal record. In any case, as I noted such persons are generally speaking not jailed unless and until they have been convicted and found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Defendants can also be jailed pretrial if they do not qualify for bail, or cannot meet the conditions of the bail imposed by the court, but even here they are given an opportunity to argue their case for pretrial release before a Judge and to have that decision revisited in the event of changed conditions. The parents who are having their children taken away are given no opportunity for a hearing before their children are taken from them and being placed in a mass detention facility.
“That happens in this country as well,” she explained. “In other words, if I commit a crime and I am put in jail, my four children are separated from their mother, because we don’t have a policy — Why would you want the children in jail with their parents? You want them in a facility temporarily or you want them to be repatriated back to their home country, with said parent, or you want them to come into this country with a responsible adult who you know, who the authorities are confident means that child no harm.”
Second, if a person is convicted or accused of a crime and held in
jail or prison, their children are not placed in mass detention
facilities like the children at the border. In those cases, they are
either placed in the custody of the other parent, if that person can be
located, or an appropriate family member if one can be found and
assuming that doing so would not be detrimental to the child(ren) for
some reason. If that can’t be arranged, then the children are placed in
the temporary custody of the relevant child welfare agency and, while
they may temporarily be housed in a facility for children that, while
less than ideal, are certainly better than the facilities these
immigrant children are being housed in. Additionally, in these
situations the ultimate goal would be to place them with a foster family
at least until their custodial parent is released from jail. Depending
on the offense(s) the parent is charged with, of course, it may require
additional court proceedings to determine if the child(ren) should be
returned to them, but they are generally being treated far better than
any of the 2,000 or so children being held in mass detention facilities
operated by the Federal Government.
Third, it is crucial to remember that the vast majority of the parents who have been impacted by this new Trump Administration policy are seeking asylum rather than merely being undocumentedimmigrants
who were caught trying to sneak across the border with their children.
Most of them, in fact, have presented themselves at designated border
crossing locations and seeking asylum for reasons ranging from the
political to the personal, including women fleeing domestic violence and
families fleeing the gang violence that is far too common in many of
the nations of Central America. Seeking asylum is not a crime and can
also be a defense against a charge of improper entry. In either case,
the act of seeking asylum means that we are required to give them a
hearing by existing Federal law as well as international treaties to
which the United States is a signatory, thus making those treaties part
of the “Supreme Law of the Land” pursuant to Article VI, Clause Two of the Constitution.
There is, simply put, no justification for the way in which these
parents and children are being treated, and no justification for
allowing this policy to continue for a single day."
Then there is the fiction put forth by Fox News' Laura Ingraham that the detention facilities which house the children are "like summer camp". Okay, Laura, if you really believe that, let's see you send your kids or grandkids to enjoy nature and the fresh air at one of these havens of bliss.
And for the Republicans who reject this policy, let's see you exercise some backbone and make some serious waves.
Third, it is crucial to remember that the vast majority of the parents who have been impacted by this new Trump Administration policy are seeking asylum rather than merely being undocumented
Then there is the fiction put forth by Fox News' Laura Ingraham that the detention facilities which house the children are "like summer camp". Okay, Laura, if you really believe that, let's see you send your kids or grandkids to enjoy nature and the fresh air at one of these havens of bliss.
And for the Republicans who reject this policy, let's see you exercise some backbone and make some serious waves.
Child snatching is one of those nasty things that human beings do to others to punish or dominate. The Ottoman Turks would take boys born in Christian families, raise and educate them as Muslims, becoming janissaries. The US government took indigenous children from their parents to zero out their culture. Native Americans earlier did the same but put the children into families, not institutions. It's a weapon, alongside rape, killing and torture, to demoralize and terrorize. I sometimes wonder if the DYFS bureaucracies in the various states aren't carried away by their power. A friend overheard a DYFS woman at a party bragging about how she was going to remove a baby from pot smoking parents. My friend told her pot smoking was a ridiculous excuse for doing something so extreme. I sometimes wonder if these people do more harm than good. And if it's part of some ancient and dark human practice.
ReplyDeleteAnthony Scaramucci was Trump's designated mouthpiece for 10 days, or until Scaramucci's mouth was getting more attention than Trump's quotes. Today the blind pig found a truffle and tweeted:
ReplyDelete“You can’t simultaneously argue that family separation isn’t happening, that it’s being used as a deterrent, that the Bible justifies it and that it’s @TheDemocrats fault. @POTUS is not being served well by his advisors on this issue."
POTUS is his own adviser on this, and that is exactly the argument coming from his administration. As of the weekend, two-thirds of Republicans in one poll found that position to be logical and perfectly correct, and, besides, Pelosi. A few Republicans -- who swallowed the groping, swallowed the Nice Nazis, swallowed the racism, swallowed the doubletalk and swallowed the name-calling have somehow noticed that the man makes no sense. What took them so long?
What was the family-separation policy when we interred Japanese US citizens during WWII? Anyone know? That strikes me as a better parallel than Conway's imprisonment analogy.
ReplyDeleteSome family friends were interned in Arizona. Immediate family were kept together.
DeleteGeorge (Sulu) Takei said he was never separated from his parents during internment.
DeleteAccording to this article "..families were generally kept together in the United States, Canada sent male evacuees to work in road camps or on sugar beet projects. Women and children Nikkei were forced to move to six inner British Columbia towns." One instance where Canada did worse than we did; it doesn't say if the men were paid for the work they did. Hopefully they were.
DeleteJean was kind enough to correct my malapropism - it is "interned", not "interred"!
DeleteInterred is when you're buried.
DeleteHad you asked the Yoshimines, I think they would have told you it felt like interment.
DeleteI follow Sen. Chuck Grassley's Twitter account. He says he is against separating families and that the Flores ruling of 1997 needs to be overturned to prevent it.
ReplyDelete???
As I understand it, the Flores case, which was brought in protest over family detention conditions under the Obama admin, has no bearing on the Trump policy. If anything, the spirit of that ruling was to keep families together in licensed facilities.
Moreover, as a court ruling, it cannot be blamed on The Democrats.
More on Flores here: https://www.humanrightsfirst.org/blog/flores-ruling-and-possible-end-family-detention
Meantime, Bethany Christian Adoptions here in Michigan says it cannot find foster parents quickly enough for children removed from their parents and shuttles to Michigan because there are not enough foster parents along the border.
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DeleteI deleted a reply to Jean which I had written earlier today because it had a couple of errors of fact in it. Let me try again:
Delete----------
Jean, many thanks for that link re: Flores.
If I'm not mistaken, Flores, which goes back to 1997, was a consent decree to address the problem of unaccompanied immigrant minors who were detained. It strictly limits how long they can stay in custody. It states that they should be released to the care of their parents whenever possible, and establishes minimal standards of care while they are being detained.
That consent decree was then added on to in 2015 by a federal court decision that stated that the consent decree doesn't only apply to unaccompanied minors, but also to minors who are detained with their parents.
Those are the legal limits within which the Trump Administration is trying to maneuver: they are limited in how long they can hold the children in detention; but because they insist on prosecuting the parents as criminals, and criminal prosecutions can easily take longer than the Flores-imposed time limits for holding children, the government has to figure out what to do with the kids while the parents continue to languish in jail during the period of prosecution.
Prior to the court decision in 2015, The Obama Administration had actually been having the Department of Homeland Security detain immigrant families together, because, well, it seemed more humane than separating kids from parents. Once the court decision went into effect, the Obama Administration decided the only humane way it could comply was to release the families into the US until the asylum claims could be adjudicated. This is the so-called "catch and release" approach which the Trump Administration's policy is basically a reaction against.
I read the executive order that Trump issued today, and it looks to me that it restores precisely what got the Obama Administration into trouble: it orders the Department of Homeland Security (which presumably does not suffer from a budget shortfall) to come up with family detention centers, and the Department of Defense (also exceedingly well-funded) to provide those facilities. to DHS. I guess that means families will now live in tent cities on military bases? Sounds not that different than, say, Syrians in Jordan, or the Rohingya in Bangladesh.
And it doesn't seem to address the root cause of the current kerfuffle, which is that the Department of Justice continues to criminally charge asylum seekers who bypassed the ports of entry. I've got to think that litigation will be forthcoming immediately to claim that the Trump administration's new approach violates the 2015 court order. To my amateur reading, that claim sounds like a slam dunk.
The executive order does instruct the Attorney General to go to court to apply to have the case law changed (which I guess means, appeal the ruling?). Not sure if families won here, but it seems that lawyers did.
Thanks for those of you who replied to my Japanese internment camp question. Even that morally-indefensible program didn't separate children from their parents.
ReplyDeleteSeems that, for whatever reason, this issue may be getting more traction than previous attempts to shame Republicans. But also seems that Trump isn't buying that claim yet.
Politically, the way this will pan out is: Democrats will continue to make hay on this for all they're worth. Congressional Republicans will introduce bills to address the problem (seems at least two in the House and one in the Senate are in the works) with a view to (a) taking the heat off them and (b) forcing Democrats to vote against a moderate-sounding immigration solution. Then they'll all take public opinion surveys. If, as I expect in this case, Democrats come out ahead in the surveys, the Trump Administration will find some way to cave, with the worst possible grace and while letting fly with prodigious amounts of lies, blame and deflections.
In my view, the public opinion polls are the key to all this. Will Democrats succeed in moving the needle on immigration, in districts they must win in order to flip the House and/or Senate?
They are holding the children hostage to some poison pill provisions in the bills. One of them is fully funding and building Trump's #@&%ing wall. Another is cutting way back on the number of legal immigrants they allow in. Another is doing away with so-called '"chain" immigration, meaning family members will have a much harder time being alowed in.
DeleteIf it were just the stupid wall, I'd say give him the wall if he put signs on it saying "Paid for by americans who can't stand children being abused by an orange ogre". But the rest is just too nasty.
DeleteIf the bargain on offer is, the wall for the kids + some sort of help for Dreamers, there will be Americans who wonder why Democrats wouldn't take that deal.
DeleteAgain: will any of this move the needle politically? If Democrats turn their back on GOP legislation and take back Congress anyway, then any chance of getting anything done on any of those issues is gone until 2021 at the earliest.
I think it's the Wall for the Dreamers. Let them stay, and the Wall keeps everyone else out.
DeleteThe bargains on offer will not stop people who get traffic tickets from being deported. It will not increase work visas or quota levels. And forget bringing Gramma over. Nope, plenty of scenes of family trauma to come, even if these bills pass.
Sessions has changed what constitutes grounds for asylum.
And there is a lot of fear mongering about maintaining our Euro-Protestant heritage.
I am reading conflicting accounts about "ports of entry". Some say all that the asylum seekers have to do is enter at those places, and they won't be arrested or their children taken. Others say it doesn't matter, until their request is adjudicated (which may take months), they will be held and there is no guarantee that they won't be separated from their children. I'm thinking if it was as simple as entering at designated places, everyone would be doing it. I have also read that some ports of entry, such as San Diego, weren't taking any more requests for asylum.
ReplyDeleteI do believe the ports of entry are overwhelmed.
DeleteMy understanding is those being arrested and separated from their children are those who did not go to the ports of entry (although see the Vox article I linked to below; there are some claims that even at the ports of entry, some children are being separated from parents, but the Vox authors indicate it's not a systematic policy).
The legal theory is straightforward, if lacking in mercy: the asylum seekers who skirted the ports of entry entered the US illegally, and so (and this is the heart of the Trump policy, the piece that really causes all the mischief) the Department of Justice charges them with the crime of entering the country illegally, and refers them for criminal prosecution. Because the parents are charged with a federal crime, they have to sit in a federal jail awaiting a criminal trial date, rather than an ICE detention facility awaiting an asylum hearing. Those federal jails are not intended to keep families together, so the children are treated on the same basis as other children whose parents and guardians are charged with federal crimes: they're given to a branch of the Department of Health and Human Services to arrange temporary placement with a relative or foster care - or, if nothing else can be found, detention centers.
This Vox "explainer" from four days ago is the best explanation I've seen of what is going on, what the specific issues are, and what the prospects are for anything to change. Highly recommended for anyone trying to understand the issue.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.vox.com/2018/6/11/17443198/children-immigrant-families-separated-parents
Thanks for the link, Jim. It is a good summary of what is going on. I was struck by this paragraph, "When it first became clear that the Trump administration was engaging in wide-scale family separation, White House Chief of Staff John Kelly waved off questions about the policy by saying that children would be sent to “foster care or whatever.” The vagueness and inaccuracy were telling." "...or whatever" sounds a lot like most of the not-well-thought out policies of the Trump administration. He governs by chaos and confusion. And lies. If that doesn't give members of his own party pause, it should.
DeleteKatherine, yes.
DeleteIt seems to me that Republicans in Congress have taken the position that it's useful to have even a terrible president in the White House if he supports conservative causes. The 2018 elections will either tell the Republicans in Congress that they've made a horrible miscalculation, or the elections will vindicate their questionable judgment.
The harder question for Republicans is: how do we reconcile the views and preferences of Trump voters with the views and preferences of our traditional conservative base? The dynamic I described in the previous paragraph, in which a president beholden to the Trump base works in uncomfortable and uneasy alliance with a Congress largely beholden to traditional conservative constituencies, could crack up at any moment. I don't discount the possibility that the GOP may never win another national election again, and the party could cease to exist as a national party. Too many incoherencies and conflicts among the coalition that we call the Republican Party these days.
And just speaking of chaos and ill-thought-out plans, surely the budget hawks will shoot down Trump's sixth branch of service in space fantasy.
DeleteTo the Trump Administration's claim that it is following a law passed by Democrats: the Vox article I linked to in my previous comment notes that it is using provisions put in place by a bipartisan Congress and signed, not by a Democratic president but President GW Bush. This HuffPost article from 2014 gives a very brief overview of what led to the legislation.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-a-tures/how-a-bushera-law-led-to-_b_5597900.html
What should be stressed is that this law was designed to provide some sort of a process for unaccompanied minors who attempted to immigrate, most/all of whom presumably were teens who were capable of being relatively independent and self-sufficient; and the stated purpose was to ensure that these unaccompanied teens wouldn't fall prey to human traffickers.
As we say in the business world, the "use case" being cooked up by Trump and Sessions is very different: small children who are dependent on their parents are being separated from those parents.
It's also worth noting that the Vox article points out that, even before Trump and Sessions cooked up this new approach, the detention centers for the unaccompanied teens were already pretty full.
The latest false equivalence I have read on Facebook (yeah, I know!) "765,000 children are separated from their active duty military parents."
ReplyDeleteChildren of deployed military personnel are most often in the custody of the other parent. Or in the case of single parents, or where both parents are deployed, they are required to make guardianship arrangements, usually with other family members. The children wouldn't be in the foster system or in juvenile facilities.
DeleteThat might be a kinda-sorta-clever-but-not-really analogy if we were talking about immigrant families who come here illegally for economic betterment. In quite a few cases, immigrants do leave their spouses and children behind, and then send back money from here.
DeleteBut that's not the category we're talking about. We're talking about asylum seekers. Those are people who "come to the United States seeking protection because they have suffered persecution or fear that they will suffer persecution due to:
* Race
* Religion
* Nationality
* Membership in a particular social group
* Political opinion"
https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/asylum
For an asylum-seeking parent, leaving children behind is to make them even more vulnerable than they would be with the parent living with them. Asylum-seeking parents bring their children with them because it's the best way they know of to keep their children safe.
My great-grandmother's family, including my grandfather as a little boy, immigrated to the US because there were jobs and opportunity here, and it was a safe, secure and stable place to live. That's what today's immigrants want, too. Why are we so reluctant to offer it to them?
Some guy was on 1-A this morning saying that the kids in the tents were having fun, getting an education, living in air conditioning, and getting three meals a day. If they were their parents, they would be starving in a Mexican desert.
DeleteThe Laura Ingraham analogy.
I had to turn it off.
Womp. Womp.
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ReplyDeleteI think there are several strands to this issue that are getting conflated in the national debate (or in Trump's head):
ReplyDelete1. Those covered under DACA, different from #5.
2. Those caught illegally crossing the border.
3. Asylum seekers.
4. Lotteries and green-card holders.
5. Status of illegals now living in the U.S., which would include many subsets of people such as those involved in gangs, those married to U.S. citizens, those who support children born in the U.S.
6. "Chain migration"
A national debate on immigration policy is needed, one that would look at all these facets in some kind of rational way.
But as long as Trump demands billions for a "beautiful wall" and freaks out about rapists and killers, that rational debate is not going to happen.
Given the reality, maybe it would be prudent to protect the innocent from the vagaries of our policies and the rage that some Americans feel about the "infestation" of people at our southern border right now, by calling a moratorium on immigration, period.
A"moratorium". Trouble is, Trump and his minions would just love that. "See, we won!"
DeleteThough I don't see why anyone in their right mind would try to come here right now. The only thing I can think of is that they are more scared of what they are leaving than what faces them here.
Yah, sure they would say that, but it may be more important to protect people from him than worrying about what he claims as a victory. Because everything that comes out of any of his orifices seems to be a victory in his mind.
DeleteJust heard Himself has signed an exec order stopping separation of families. So, all better now. Ha!
ReplyDeleteFrom what I'm reading, they're still going to be interned, they just won't be separated. Which is at least an improvement. Just shows it didn't really need an act of congress. Oh my goodness, do you suppose he might have been lying? *sarcasm*
DeleteWill he lose support from the nasty old whiteguy base for this about face? Will be interesting to see the reactions of the nasty whiteguys who went over the edge defending their hero.
DeleteIf he can legally do what he claims he did today, then he and the Homeland Security secretary were big, fat liars yesterday when they said he would be breaking the law. Of course, as president and friend of Kim Jung Un, he may break the law whenever it suits him. Or maybe he will take his medicine and do time in a Texas Wal-Mart.
DeleteYes, they will all be interned together. As appropriate. To be decided by ICE.
DeleteMeantime, the kids who have been separated may never be reunited with their parents. Bethany Christian Services says that they received kids without knowing where their parents were interned. Kids are in foster care, parents are deported to who knows where and the kids end up in limbo. This has happened since 2013, but ramping up the separation policy was stressing the system and worsening the problem for more families.
http://michiganradio.org/post/trump-signs-executive-order-dozens-migrant-children-wait-michigan-foster-care
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DeleteBad link, I'll try it again.
DeleteThis article has a list of groups and organizations which are trying to help with locating family members and other needs.
Of course the main ones hurting from this policy are the children and their families. But I also hate it that our already damaged credibility and ability to advocate for human rights is being further eroded.
Katherine, thank you for posting that!
DeleteFurther false equivalence and whataboutism: "Why won't the Democrats help the 2 million -plus homeless children who are already residents?" I'll give them a clue; the Democrats aren't the one working overtime to shred the social safety net. Seriously, the richest nation in the world can multi-task.
ReplyDeleteIt's like those climate denier coal fetishists who suddenly become bird lovers when they hear some get whacked out of the air by wind generators.
DeleteBtw - it somehow escaped my notice that yesterday, June 20, was also World Refugee Day as declared by the United Nations. So President Trump managed to stop separating parents and children on World Refugee Day. Doesn't seem likely that that's anything more than the merest coincidence, as I'd be surprised to learn that a 2018 UN calendar is hanging on a tack in the wall of the Oval Office during the Trump Administration.
ReplyDeleteThen there is the factor that, under this new executive order, the families may be kept together in settings that may seem familiar to other refugees around the world.
Here is more information on World Refugee Day. https://www.vox.com/world/2018/6/20/17479612/world-refugee-day-immigration-venezuela
This statement by the head of Jesuit Relief Services notes that Francis describes the worldwide refugee crisis as a "crisis of solidarity".
https://www.vaticannews.va/en/church/news/2018-06/jrs-world-refugee-day-crisis-solidarity.html
One more thing I ran across this morning: Christine Fialho asks the question, Why do we detain any immigrants at all in prison conditions? And she describes an alternative that seems to work and costs a small fraction of the current imprisonment method.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-fialho-immigrant-prison-20180621-story.html
... and Paul Moses covers some of the same history in Commonweal, giving us the nifty neologism "crimmigration" and making an astute comparison between these punitive immigration policies and the War on Drugs.
Deletehttps://www.commonwealmagazine.org/minor-offenses?utm_source=Main+Reader+List&utm_campaign=f2260ad8ca-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_03_16_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_407bf353a2-f2260ad8ca-92431913
One more "whataboutism", then I'll shut up. This is the one that goes, "The ones complaining about treatment of children at the border are perfectly fine with abortion. Until they start caring about that, they are just hypocrites." Plenty of us care about both issues. And a lot more. Since when in life do we get to just think about one problem at a time? Unless the one issue is being used as a smokescreen to avoid any action on the status quo.
ReplyDelete