Tuesday, November 14, 2017
Moore's deplorable supporters
A fifth victim has come forward to accuse Roy Moore of sexual misconduct. Many Republican lawmakers in Washington have suggested Moore step aside, but amazingly it looks as if the Republican voters of Alabama not only still support Moore, but are surging ever more strongly. Some of those voters say they don't believe Moore did what he's accused of, but the majority don't care if the accusations are true. These are the people that some have suggested the Democratic party woo in order to win seats in Congress, but I agree with Hillary Clinton that they are "a basket of deplorables" who should be left behind.
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Let's face it. Some people -- and there are a lot of them in Alabama -- would rather be represented by a pedophile than by a Democrat. What have they been led to believe a Democrat is?
ReplyDeleteThe Spawn of Satan. Queer-loving abortionists. Ni$$er lovers. Etc. This IS Alabama, you know.
DeleteRoy Moore's behavior as reported in the press is indefensible, but none of it has to do with pedophilia, which pertains to sexual attraction to prepubescent children.
DeleteEven Mitch McConnell said he should step down. Maybe the only time in the century I agreed with him. They believe Democrats are "libruls". I have some family members and some coworkers who are the same way. I don't think they really know what the word liberal means, and that not all Democrats fit the definition. They have outsourced their critical thinking to Fox News.
ReplyDeleteDo any other "libruls" find this problematic: Women coming out of the shadows decades later making accusations that can't be proved? Moore gets no hearing or day in court. His reputation is ruined, but nothing is ever proved.
ReplyDeleteI think Roy Moore is a rootin' tootin' moron. Is he also a molester? It seems likely based on the way the story was discovered and the reluctance of some women to talk at first. But we will never know for sure.
I think the GOP believes the women because they seem to be good Republican ladies, and being dissed by their party would be a huge PR miscalculation, especially since Trump does not exactly have a sterling reputation when it comes to respecting women.
But the way Gloria Allred brings these women out, one every few days to keep the pressure up looks political to me.
And for anyone interested in truth and justice, there are troublesome aspects of these cases. I think this underscores the need for women to speak up immediately and not wait decades to come forward.
I realize that most of those accusing Moore were teenage girls, and that makes the situation more complicated. But once the pattern of abuse is established by press reports, how easy is it for unbalanced individuals to say "me too"?
The Court of Public Opinion is a poor substitute for real justice.
Thank you! Amen!
DeleteLet the voters of Alabama decide. If Moore wins, all the "serious" Republican Senators who want him to go away can refuse to seat him. The Republican governor of Alabama can then re-appoint Luther Strange, or another Republican.
DeleteOn the other hand, if the Democrat wins, it will prove that Alabamans are smarter than they sometimes seem.
These southern folk can deny or ignore climate change supported by physical theory and evidence. They should have no problem overlooking charges of rape from the Paleolithic Age.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJG75FJkjr8
DeleteSo glad Durning lived long enough to play the southern governor Pappy O'Daniel in "O Brother, Where art Thou". And he could dance, too.
DeleteI've noticed how the right-o-sphere has been emphasizing the sexual offenses of Democratic donors and now we have the uranium deal nonsense renewing the war on Hillary. It's diversion targeting people unelected, without current influence, and formerly in office. It is the people IN office who are in need of scrutiny. Everything else is a waste of taxpayer money.
ReplyDeleteOne reason why these women didn't speak up immediately was because they were not *women* but girls, and Moore was a DA .... a huge power disparity. They probably thought no one would believe them, that he would harm them somehow, that they were the only ones that had happened to, etc. And as someone who has been groped before, I know there is tremendous pressure in our culture to just let this kind of thing go, not make a big deal of it, men will be men.
ReplyDeleteThe reason why they are coming out now? I think the news about Harvey Weinsrein has helped many women in many different circumstances feel brave enough to finally speak up about being harassed.
Finally, this isn't about proving a crime in a court, it is about believing or not believing these women .... either you do or you don't. And if you do, then the question is 'do you want a sexual harasser to represent you in Washington?'. Obviously many people don't care .... they voted for Trump, after all.
To the Editor:
DeleteTo the school principal in Alabama who said the allegations against Roy Moore should have been addressed at the time: Let me remind her and others who agree with her what society was like 40 years ago.
First, children were taught that adults in authority should be respected and obeyed, that they could do no wrong. Schools and medical establishments were decades away from teaching children about improper touching.
Second, girls were taught that they were responsible for the reactions of boys and men. If a boy “went too far,” it was probably her fault.
Third, even if a child did report a sexual assault to her mother, the mother was likely either not to believe her, or to be afraid to carry the report further. The mother might fear retaliation by the man, or ostracism by her community.
It is difficult to imagine the repression, hypocrisy and denial that existed then. I speak from bitter experience.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/13/opinion/roy-moore.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fopinion-letters&action=click&contentCollection=letters®ion=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=6&pgtype=sectionfront
Thanks for the link, Jim. My experience too - when I was a little kid I was abused by my first stepfather. I told my mom but she didn't believe me. Amazingly, he admitted it, though. But still, he continued to live with us for about another year. No cops.
DeleteI don't know if I believe these women. I know there are men who predate on teenage girls. I also know that women are capable of making false claims (see the Salem witch trials).
DeleteWhat the women claim in Moore's case is in the realm of possibility. The fact that they were reluctant to come forward speaks to their credibility, their not wishing to make a political issue of the election. So I believe it is possible, even likely, Moore is an abuser.
But I also think it's possible he is not guilty. And I'm not sure I would want to deny someone the right to run for office or be seated in Congress based on what I think. If that's all it takes to tank a political career--allegations--then we are in trouble.
We also have as president a man who was caught on tape bragging about groping women without their consent. So to what extent are we setting a doubles standard for Moore by insisting he pull out of the race or not be seated? We've already set the national tolerance bar very low.
Nobody is owed a seat in Congress or any other political office. We vote for them or against them for a ton of different reasons and it's ok to vote against someone because you believe they are an abuser. I planned to vote against John Edwards in the 2008 primary because he spent so much money on his haircuts, before I even knew he had a secret other family ;) Trump didn't deserve to win either.
DeletePS - plus, there were a lot of reasons to vote against Moore even before this stuff came out, like his homophobia.
DeleteI see now that Paul Ryan and even Sessions have stated they believe the women. I guess this is in part a fight for the soul of the republican party ... Bannon vs the regular guys. But the voters in Alabama still seem to be with Moore.
ReplyDeleteTwo sources are now reporting that Judge Roy was banned from his home town mall "decades ago" (if you wish) on suspicion of cruising for girls. Here is the New Yorker version:
ReplyDelete//www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/locals-were-troubled-by-roy-moores-interactions-with-teen-girls-at-the-gadsden-mall
It also appears that anybody who is anybody in the Alabama political world had "heard something" about good ol' Roy but didn't see any need to cross him. But times have changed (thanks to abrasive lawyers and cross-victim encouragement). And now they see the need.
David Brooks has this take in today's Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/13/opinion/roy-moore-conservative-evangelicals.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-right-region®ion=opinion-c-col-right-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-right-region
ReplyDeleteAnd there's this: https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/12/roy-moore-alabama-sexual-misconduct-allegations-244807
DeleteAnd this ..... http://religiondispatches.org/evangelical-author-on-why-christian-conservatives-supported-trump/?utm_source=Religion+Dispatches+Newsletter&utm_campaign=6599774d4c-RD_Daily_Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_742d86f519-6599774d4c-84571141
DeleteThe Repub Party, down there especially, is more of a cult than a political party. Cult leaders are notorious for their sexual escapades and the ability of cult members to ignore, tolerate or celebrate them.
ReplyDeleteDp you think that the Catholic bishops in Alabamanutland will threaten denial of communion to the Catholic there who support Moore not matter what just because he ain't no freakin' Democrat?
DeleteWell, uh, no.
DeleteAs a lifelong Democrat, if faced with the choice of voting for a Republican senatorial candidate who was going to support the Trump administration or a Democratic senatorial candidate who reportedly did something reprehensible thirty years ago, I certainly wouldn't vote for the Republican. I suppose I might consider not voting at all, but I wouldn't do anything to support Trumpism.
ReplyDeleteThere sure is a lot of info out there re: the attitudes that might 'splain some of the Alabamanut nonsense: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/11/13/roy-moore-allegations-prompt-reflections-on-fundamentalist-culture-in-which-some-christian-men-date-teens/?utm_term=.823247b220f1
ReplyDeleteYeah, I wonder what I would do. I hope I would write someone in or not vote. Makes me think of Bill Clinton.
ReplyDeleteWow. Lotta people here are making some big broad assumptions about Southerners. I'm a damn Yankee going back before the Civil War, but some of these regional assumptions make even me wince.
ReplyDeleteYeah, me too,Jean. My mom's side has a lot of Southern roots. Of course it was over 100 years ago. One of those people owned a slave. And freed her before the Emancipation. But I'll save that story for another time. Suffice it to say that there were some good things about Southerners.
DeleteWe have a wonderful niece and her family in Ala. She's is a tougher critic of her fellow Alabamans than anybody here. So don't go getting soft on those wonderful people who are going to vote for Roy Moore....
DeleteNot going soft on Southerners, but there must be some sensible people down there, and some who can wake up and die right. Even George Corley Wallace wheeled himself into a black church one Sunday, alone and unannounced, and asked for forgiveness. Praying that the folks in Alabammy do the right thing.
DeleteJean, your patience is endearing, but there is a certain way of being Southern that is enduring. Part of it is no sassing Papa, no matter what he did with that cheap you-know-what (aged 13). And another was on display when Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III showed high dudgeon that innyone would call him a liar when his story has remained unchanged. Only the facts changed. A hundred years ago, he would have called Al Franken out.
DeleteThere is northern hypocrisy, and there is southern hypocrisy. So far as I know, no one ever got lynched to make northern hypocrisy safe for daddies.
Remember all those discussion of tribal loyalties in Afghanistan and other place we're shooting up? Seems as if Alabama, Mississippi, Texas have something of the same cultural systems. We (northerners) already tried shooting them up, but that didn't work. We've been busy subventing their wretched welfare systems for decades. What's left?
DeleteBack in the good old days of dotCommonweal, didn't someone here say, Lincoln should have let them go be their own country? Jean, I think it was you.
DeleteOh, yes, I firmly believe we Yankees lost the Civil War. But given that we had to take them back, I think we need to he'p them Southerners with our prayers when they start running downright wing dings for office.
DeleteThis never gets any traction, but I think the country is too big and diverse to hold together. Divvy it up into three: Everything north of the Ohio River and east of the Mississippi in one country. Everything south of the Ohio River and west through Texas in another. And what's left--movie stars and cattle ranchers--a third.
We'll still have our crosses to bear. The West will have Clivan Bundy and earthquakes, the South will have the Klan and the zika virus, and we Northerners will have our crappy weather and bad roads.
We in the west really don't want Texas! ;)
DeleteMaybe Texas could just return to Mexico.
DeleteIf any southerners were reading this thread, could they be blamed for thinking northerners, midwesterners and westerners also have their tribal loyalties?
DeleteI still believe that "united we stand, divided we fall." I think we have to fight against the tendency to balkanize ourselves.
Crystal, I included Texas with the South. Everything north and west of there is yours! Good luck with Oklahoma and Arkansas!
DeleteKatherine, I think that job mobility mitigated against balkanization. Read something recently that families are less spread out around the country because the kids can't afford to move away, and the middle aged have to take care of Gramma and Grampa who are being kept alive for beyond their ability to care for themselves. Legacies are nonexistent as elders have to go to "the home" and exhaust assets. So maybe regionalism is on the rise?
Yes, Midwesterners are all dour, have no aesthetic taste, and are obsessed with the price of everything and how to avoid seasonal roadwork. Having a good time isn't something that comes naturally, though we can get excited about euchre and bowling if there is enough beer involved. We also like dogs.
Katherine, Some tribalism is nasty. But some is deadly. It does make a difference. Not every member of the tribe buys into the tribe's demands. Cf. Romeo and Juliet. Or West Side Story. In literature, it usually takes love to break the tribal chain. In real life, too, probably.
DeleteTom, I've never been to Florida. Do you feel that it has a southern vibe? Or are there so many people from somewhere else living there that it is more hodgepodge?
DeleteWhen I was nine (1957), I took a trip with family to Florida, specifically Miami. My aunt always spoke of it as a paradise, "Moon over Miami", etc. I remember it as a disappointment. Checking into the hotel, I remember the witch of an owner constantly verbally abusing the black guy bringing up our luggage. I can't say I was an enlightened little humanoid but I had never seen one person treat another like that and was uncomfortable. Maybe that's what made me ok later with the civil rights movement.
DeleteWe're actually getting a pretty liberal coalition here on the west coast ... Washington, Oregon, and California. The problem with the South is the lingering confederate/white supremacy ideology that a faction of the population clings to.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteKatherine, Where I live in Florida (Palm Beach County) and points south to the Keys, we say you have to go north to get to the South. The West Coast of Florida, in parts, is Keokuk and Indianapolis with walkers. But there are parts of Florida that remember that this was part of the Confederacy and, dammit, may have to be again.
DeleteAmong my distant neighbors are Donald J. Trump (part time, just to be obnoxious) and Paul Manafort (full time, in theory, because Florida has no income tax).
I've never been to the South ... I'm a Westerner more than a Northerner, I guess.
ReplyDeleteI spent enough time in the south while in the Air Force to know that life is too short to mix the truly backwards deep south. Places like Atlanta don't count and they are more northern than southern. But the deep south ... ain't no way, Jose!!!
ReplyDeleteFor places truly dependent on federal welfare (https://people.howstuffworks.com/which-states-give-the-most-the-federal-government-which-get-the-most.htm) they delight in biting the hands that feed them.
Now Al Franken is accused of and seems to admit abusing a woman. This is backed up by a picture. Will other women now come out with similar stories? Franken is a very intelligent progressive Senator. He is a fighter for addressing climate change and giving Trump appointees what for in interrogations. So what now?
ReplyDeleteSo far, the charge against Franken is not under age.
DeleteWe will see what comes next, if anything. I have been reviewing 80 years of possible misunderstandings and/or lapses, and it seems to me most of us aren't going to cruise through the Pearly Gates if bad taste is part of the analysis.
Tom, yeah. I'm not reviewing 80 years of possible lapses in judgement, but well over 60. I think it's a matter of whether lapses were misdemeanors or felonies, or maybe mortal or venial. Statutes of limitations exist for a reason. Are we going to go full-bore Chapter of Faults on everybody?
DeleteI took a retreat once where we spent a week reviewing every bad thing we had ever done since we were children. It was horrifying ;) I think the purpose was to make you realize how really bad you are, then part 2 was coming to believe that God still liked you anyway. It was pretty hard to achieve that second part, though.
DeleteCrystal, on behalf of human decency I apologize for whomever thought up that retreat! Baptism washes away our sins, and free and full confession the same. The sacraments make manifest the forgiveness of our sins. So forcing people to relive every bad thing in their whole lives strikes me as just plain cruel and counter to the spirit of everlasting mercy. Ugh!
DeleteHeh :) It was Ignatius of Loyola. He also wanted people to imagine themselves being in hell for all the bad stuff they'd done ... A Meditation on Hell ... a fun guy.
DeleteWhich is one reason I gravitate more to Carmelite spirituality. Imagination is wonderful. But sometimes it's not.
DeleteI think men sexually harassing women is equal opportunity - both liberals and conservatives do it. Maybe all these people coming forward and exposing different abusers will make it more clear that it really isn't an ok thing to do, whether it's actionable or not.
ReplyDeleteWe'll see if the avalanche effect occurs with Franken. I would wager it will. If one is capable of egregious behaviour once, it has probably occurred other times. I am extremely disappointed by this but I'm afraid Franken will be going down.
ReplyDeleteWe definitely want people to realize that any kind of harassment is wrong. And to expunge any type of a culture of sexual exploitation. But I also think we don't want to go too far the other way, and get into an atmosphere where friendship is suspect. I met my husband at work; I think a lot of couples meet that way. Unless we want to go back to arranged marriages, couples have to get together somehow.
ReplyDeleteThere's normal socialization at work between persons which can lead to romance and then there's the crass crap we've seen described by these victims. I've asked women out at work and, if refused, that was the end of that. Can't blame them for good taste. Easier to let the ones with bad taste to ask me.
ReplyDeleteIt's all about mutuality. If both people involved want to have some kind of relationship, it's all good.
ReplyDelete