Tuesday, August 26, 2025

On the Need for Discernment

 A couple of (sort of ) related things got my attention this past week.  One of them was a reading for Mass on Thursday, the 21st.  It was the troubling Old Testament reading, Judges 11:29-39, the story of Jephthah and his daughter:

"The spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah.o He passed through Gilead and Manasseh, and through Mizpah of Gilead as well, and from Mizpah of Gilead he crossed over against the Ammonites. Jephthah made a vow to the LORD.p “If you deliver the Ammonites into my power,” he said, “whoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me when I return from the Ammonites in peace shall belong to the LORD. I shall offer him up as a burnt offering.”

"Jephthah then crossed over against the Ammonites to fight against them, and the LORD delivered them into his power....When Jephthah returned to his house in Mizpah, it was his daughter who came out to meet him, with tambourine-playing and dancing. She was his only child: he had neither son nor daughter besides her. When he saw her, he tore his garments and said, “Ah, my daughter! You have struck me down and brought calamity upon me. For I have made a vow* to the LORD and I cannot take it back.”

 Long story short, because of his vow, he ended up sacrificing the life of his only child.  I wondered why this particular reading was included in the Mass readings of the day, there certainly seemed to be no spiritual enlightenment from this tragic story. 

The best take on it came from a reflection by America Magazine's Colleen Dulle.  Showing up when God’s invitation comes - America Magazine

"It seems clear to me—though I’m no Scripture scholar—that the story of Jephthah is a cautionary tale. The responsorial psalm underlines that: It’s saying, beware of doing things you think are God’s will that actually aren’t. Surely we can all think of examples when people have used religion to justify actions that seem completely out of line with what God wants. Discern, the first reading tells us, or risk tragedy."

The second thing related to discernment on my mind this past week was the death of James Dobson.  He was an American evangelical psychologist and author, and the founder of Focus on the Family.  He was noted for his harsh take on parenting, basically, "spare the rod and spoil the child".  

There has been a lot of commentary on his parenting advice, with people saying that they had been traumatized by their parents applying it to them, and that families and individuals had been damaged by it.

Which brings me to the need for discernment.  If someone offers visible-from-space bad parenting advice, why would you swallow it whole?  It was no secret that he was a fundamentalist, I would call him a neo-puritan.  Of course many of the people who bought his many books were of that persuasion themselves, and it probably fit in with what they already were tuned in to.

Just as Jephthah should not have made, or kept, a rash promise to God, to do something offensive to God, people needed to consider what advice they were absorbing for their parenting decisions.  

I have a cousin who liked the Dobson books. She wasn't one to knock her kids around, but liked his advice about "leadership".  That made me think of moldy bread.  If I see mold on a slice of bread, I don't cut off the bad part and eat it.  I pitch the whole loaf, because the mold is in it, even if I couldn't see it all.  Apparently there were people who didn't even cut off the bad advice, but ate the whole loaf, and families suffered.

41 comments:

  1. God told Abraham to kill his son. Then sent an angel to stop him. But did not stop Jephthah. Why not? What kind of God is being taught about in these stories? Not a God I would like to know. only know two evangelicals personally (couples - including my brother in law and late sister in law). But it seems that evangelicals are focused primarily on the Hebrew scriptures, the stories of a vengeful, violent God, a God that kills innocents on behalf of Israel. The other focus is on Revelation.
    I wonder what a psychologist would make of the fixation in some evangelical circles on these particular scriptures. I wonder why many are still being taught. I wonder how Jewish rabbis handle some of these passages.
    Dobson and Focus on the Family were/are not positive influences in this country. My husband's brother and family lived in Colorado Springs for a few years. It's a hotbed of evangelical christianity. They took us to some kind of evangelical center. The bookstore was eye opening. Unsurprisingly, I was not familiar with most of the authors, but I did know about Dobson - they had many of his books. Skimming through the books I was truly amazed - I felt that these authors' audience live in an alternative reality - not really christian the way I think of it. They use a different vocabulary even. Enlightening. I've never been to a service at an evangelical church. Maybe out of curiosity I should. I've been to mainstream Protestant, Orthodox, Jewish, Buddhist, and even Muslim services, and the ordination of a friend of mine in a Baptist church (the Baptists that do ordain women). But never an evangelical christian church service.

    ReplyDelete
  2. About God not stopping Jephthah, the whole thing was his (Jephthah's) idea. He just never took into account that he might kill someone he loved. He would have been quite willing to sacrifice a servant or someone else.
    What I believe about the OT is that it was a process. People were still part pagan for much of it. They had made some progress by Jesus' time.
    About evangelical services, I've been to more than a few of them. My maternal grandparents were Baptists, the branch that broke with the southern ones over slavery. My husband was evangelical, he converted after we'd been married ten years. So I had been to church with him and my in-laws often. Was never tempted to join the evangelicals though.
    Their services are mostly long sermons, with a few prayers and singing. If you're used to a liturgical service like the Catholics, Lutherans, or Episcopalians, it seems odd. They had Communion once in a blue moon.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It seemed to me that my in-laws' denomination almost placed more emphasis on their Bible study classes than they did on their church service. Though they interpreted Scripture differently than we do, they really did devote a lot of time and effort to study of the Bible.

      Delete
    2. Every evangelical I’ve encountered can drop scripture quotes on demand, but often seem shallow in their understanding.

      Re the OT was a process. Richard Rohr often uses Rene Girards description of the Bible as a “ text in travail.”

      “ The Bible itself is a “text in travail,” according to René Girard’s fine insight. [1] It mirrors and charts our own human travail. It offers both mature and immature responses to almost everything. In time, you will almost naturally recognize the difference between the text moving forward toward the mercy, humility, and inclusivity of Jesus and when the text is regressing into arrogance, exclusion, and legalism.”

      https://cac.org/daily-meditations/what-do-we-do-with-the-bible-2019-01-06/

      Delete
    3. The ancient-er Hebrews, like most humans, practiced human sacrifice to their gods. The story of Abraham seems to move away from that. It is a process as Katherine says. “An eye for an eye” sounds terrible until you compare it to what’s happening in Gaza. A thousand eyes for an eye. All your eyes.

      Delete
  3. I agree with Richard Rohr, whose observation about Scripture reminds me why I wanted to be Catholic. The Church has the longest, best, most stringent tradition of biblical scholarship.

    Baptist and Amish kids in Raber's family got prizes for memorizing Bible verses. That's why they can spout this stuff on command. You can teach a parakeet to do that. Doesn't mean they understand it.

    Hope everyone is having a good day. Heat has eased off here, and the air has cleared of Canadian wildfire smoke for now. Hazarding a drive to the bird sanctuary. Swans may be flocking about now. Mobility not great, but the nausea and headaches are at bay, so carpe diem.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It's nice here too, the heat finally cooled off. Hope you see some swans at the bird sanctuary! Glad the nausea and headaches are better.

      Delete
    2. Jean, it is the church’s intellectual breadth and depth that has kept me connected Ben when I was in EC pews. But that parish had two incredible priests whose homilies were consistently better than any I had heard in Catholic pews. Both of them drew on many resources, including literature, poetry, and Catholic the Ohioans and thinkers. The RCC really does excel at certain things. But it seems few Catholic parish priests draw on the church’s own resources beyond parroting the catechism.

      Delete
    3. Nicer here too, thank goodness. Prayers for the repose of the soul of my husband’s older sister, Katherine, who died at 7 am in New York City, two days short of her 86 th birthday.

      Delete
    4. Almost too chilly here the last couple of days. I'm wearing a Michigan State Spartans sweatshirt and jeans. Normally in August, I'd be wearing a t shirt and shorts.

      Delete
    5. Anne, I'm sorry to hear about your sister-in-law. May perpetual light shine upon her!

      Delete
  4. Catholic theologians and thinkers…. I need to slow down on my iPad and always reread.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Judges is thought to have been written by one or more Deuteronomists. They are thought to have lived long (as in, many centuries) after the historical events took place, and were into near-absolute legal fidelity and purity. This little anecdote is characteristic in that respect: if you make God a promise, God will expect you to keep it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. But it seems to send a bad message about God. The Church of England has founding documents that are pretty nasty about the RCC, written hundreds of years ago. Today they teach that those are “ historical “ records and don’t reflect Anglican understanding today. It might be good if the PTB were to create an historic canon of scriptures, remove them from the regular scriptures ( and rotation at mass) or at minimum explain that these scriptures are historical documents but are easily misunderstood and misinterpreted.

      Delete
    2. "But it seems to send a bad message about God. "

      It's a different way of thinking about God than you and I may tend to adopt. The Deuteronomists emphasized scrupulous fidelity to the law. We have the benefit of Jesus's interpretation of the law, which seemingly softened some of the hard edges of scrupulous fidelity (the "you have heard...but I say" passages in the Sermon on the Mount - although, are they really softer?)

      And it is certainly true that Jesus repeatedly offended the legally scrupulous of his time by teaching the spirit rather than the letter of the law.

      But at the same time, Jesus could be quite uncompromising. His teaching on divorce was more rigorous (and restrictive) than how the Mosaic law was understood in his time. And more generally, he demanded that our commitment to God be full and uncompromising. He seemed to be unsatisfied with the prospect that we would be sort of half-converted (which, honestly, probably describes me and, perhaps, most of us). He might have had a little - or even more than a little - of the Deuteronomist in him.

      Delete
  6. The first school shooting of the year - through the windows of a Catholic Church during opening day mass. Jesus weeps. Americans do nothing but scream about their 2nd Amendment rights. I was worrying about this because our 7 grandchildren are all back at school now. As far as we’re concerned, we pray they can move to Europe where the children don’t have to start active shooter drills in kindergarten.

    ReplyDelete
  7. About mass shootings, especially school shootings, what changed around the turn of the century? We had guns before, not as many, but they were out there. What we apparently didn't have is numbers of young men who wanted to commit suicide ( because that's what most of them do) and who had a nihilistic urge to take as many innocent people with them as possible. There have always been suicides, but not this murderous rage. If taking the 2nd amendment away would help, I'd be for it. I don't know why Trump hasn't thought of that, he has no regard for the constitution anyway. Of course it would enrage his base.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Who knows. But this shooting will generate even more controversy because the shooter apparently was trans or wanted to be, requesting an official name change from Robert to Robin. A former student at the school. Most likely bullied a lot.

      Delete
    2. I always thought it was a matter of when, not if. Non-Catholic churches and synagogues have been attacked so, of course, eventually a Catholic church. The shooter could not have done what he did at my church unless he was on a ladder or a platform on a truck. The windows are too high. I looked up the Church where the tragedy occurred on Google maps. It was a modern looking church set up ideally for this. Narrow slit shaped windows went almost all the way to the ground. Reminiscent of slit apertures in castles from which bowmen could fire arrows with relative impunity. Only this was in reverse. Unfortunately, maybe architects should start considering this problem when they design buildings. My friend tells me her Evangelical Lutheran church locks up 15 minutes after the service begins. Crazy times require crazy tactics. Until our country becomes less crazy, if ever, they need to start thinking of ways of countering shooters. I have a carry permit but a gun in church would be counterproductive in this scenario. How do you not hurt the innocent? And handguns are imprecise. But there are other less-than-lethal defenses which might be effective.

      Delete
    3. Curious that the shooter, identifying as female, did something strongly associated with testosterone. Had the shooter already been castrated? I don’t know of any school shootings done by biological women, even those transitioned to male. Is there any scientific psychological knowledge to be gleaned from this? The entire trans phenomena is hard to judge since it is an internal, subjective thing. Apparently, some previous church shootings were related to trans people born male.

      Delete
    4. "Is there any scientific psychological knowledge to be gleaned from this?"

      Yes. That there are a lot of people who are not knowledgeable about transexuality who will assume a lot of things about all trans people because of this. And law-abiding and decent trans people will get tarred with this terrible crime.

      Delete
    5. The shooter at the Christian school in Nashville a few years was also a former student and apparently also trans - female to male. I don’t know if he had undergone surgery or hormonal treatments. This latest won’t help law abiding trans individuals.

      Delete
    6. I hear of things like roid rage. Testosterone plays a role in male aggression in all mammalian species. I didn’t know the previous church shooter was female-to-male. Some women are capable of murder and sociopathic behavior but don’t seem to do mass shootings. Again, a small difference in the mean for two populations can generate strong numerical differences at the outskirts of the Gaussian curve. The average man probably isn’t noticeably more aggressive than the average women, but could explain large numericaldifferences at the extremes.

      Delete
    7. Trans people do not have hormone levels that turn them into some murderous version of the Incredible Hulk. In fact, if they are under responsible medical care (which many Christian conservatives want to eliminate), hormone therapy is increased gradually and stopped at the lowest effective level. Athletes and body builders who use hormones have much higher levels of testosterone, and they are not committing mass shootings, though they may be more prone to outbursts that lead to domestic violence.

      Delete
    8. I was reading that the shooter posted, and wrote, a whole bunch of unhinged hate filled stuff. Also that they used a picture of Jesus for target practice. There is a spiritual aspect which is pretty dark. I know a lot of people don't believe in demonic influence, but it's hard not to think of that in this instance.

      Delete
    9. It’s horrible when children are brutally murdered. I take this time to think of the ongoing murder and starvation of the children in Gaza. The horror of Minneapolis multiplied by tens and tens of thousands. Doctors volunteering in Gaza speak of days when children are brought in predominantly with head wounds one day, then chest wounds or genitalia, as if some game is being played. If the shooter wanted to kill children, the shooter should have joined the IDF. No penalty. I’m all for banning guns in the US. Let’s ban them in Palestine, too.

      Delete
    10. Stanley, you might be interested in this story:
      https://www.ncronline.org/news/cardinal-zuppi-leads-seven-hour-prayer-naming-every-child-killed-holy-land-war

      Delete
    11. That the shooter was a trans person was the first thing announced about her (at least that I heard). Subsequently, it's becoming more and more likely that her trans identity is a red herring.

      It's important that we come to understand how this person was able to accumulate her arsenal, and if any laws were broken or poor judgment shown. I don't know anything about Minnesota's gun laws, but the state has both a "blue-state" government and a significant outdoor recreational industry (i.e. hunting is big there). I would guess that, even absent the 2nd amendment, it could be difficult to impose restrictions on buying guns.

      Delete
    12. The guns were purchased legally. The shooter has no criminal record. Some Catholic commentators, including an idiot bishop somewhere, are saying it was an anti- Catholic hate crime. If so, it’s by a Catholic - who went to the school and whose mother worked there for years before retiring a few years ago. The shooter may have hated that Catholic school, but that is not the same as this tragedy representing anti- Catholicism. The trans identity is of course being made much of. Why? The shooter was trans. The shooter at the christian school in Nashville, affiliated with a Presbyterian church, was also trans. But also a former student at the school. Nobody ranted about that tragedy being due to anti- Presbyterian hate. It’s possible that these shootings may be related to the shooters being misfits who were bullied at the schools. Those who are crying anti- Catholicism or making a big deal out of the trans aspect also seem to overlook the reality that the vast majority of mass shooters- schools, shopping centers, movie theaters etc, are young white straight males.

      Delete
    13. I think the FBI, possibly at the direction of Kash Patel, is investigating as a hate crime against Catholics. There is always political hay, left and right, to be made on the backs of other people's grief.

      I have trans family in Minneapolis. Checked in w her yesterday, and her boss had a child at the school that was attacked. He is off work until Tuesday now. She saw the kids just the day before the shooting when they came in with their dad to show everybody their new school supplies.

      She is not much of an activist on trans issues. She transitioned many years ago and is middle-aged, more interested in environmental efforts and her.dogs and cats. But she sent this from the Minnesota Trans Alliance.

      Funny, they don't sound intrinsically disordered ...

      "We are heartbroken by the horrific act of violence that took place today. Our thoughts are with the victims, their families, and everyone affected by this senseless tragedy.

      "We unequivocally condemn this act of violence. There is no justification for such harm, and we grieve alongside the broader community for lives shattered and lost.

      "We also want to be clear: one individual’s actions do not represent or define an entire community. Trans people—like everyone else—deserve safety, dignity, and the chance to live free of violence. It is unjust and harmful to use this tragedy as a reason to scapegoat or stigmatize trans people. Let's also be diligent when discussing this to not misgender or misrepresent her lived experience while we process as a community what happened today.

      "Our mission remains what it has always been: to build a world where all people can live safely, authentically, and free from hate. Today, our hearts are with the victims. We stand for peace, healing, and solidarity against violence in all its forms."

      Delete
    14. You don't want to read the comments on FB or other social media. I call the comment sections the "bandar log". Anyway according to the commenters, of course it's always the mother's fault. Because she signed the papers for the shooter's name change when they were 17. And she was a divorcee. That must have been her fault too.
      Two things can be true at once, you can be both trans and mentally messed up.

      Delete
    15. Who knows what was going on in this person’s head to motivate this shooting? The Trump administration uses any excuse to amplify fear and prejudice in order to advance fascistic control. Trans people don’t scare me. ICE scares me a lot. Meanwhile, the US remains a huge insane asylum with armed inmates. But as long as THEY have guns, I intend to keep mine. This violence is horrible but this country has always inflicted violence on someone somewhere. I think the way it works is this. We think we’re the cowboys until we end up as indians and we know what cowboys do to indians. And thanks for the link, Katherine.

      Delete
    16. Jim, your comment about the shooters “ arsenal”, it being a blue state, and having lots of hunters seems to imply that those who want rational gun control are seeking to take away all 2 nd Amendment rights. This is a deliberate misrepresentation of the reality by MAGA. Obviously the guns in this country ( which outnumber people by a million or so) will not be confiscated. I think that it is too late to do anything about the ridiculous number of guns in this country. Even if new purchases are made illegal, the guns will be bought and sold. Perhaps some types of guns - those made specifically to kill as many people as possible in as short a time as possible ( generally the choice of mass shooters) could be confiscated ( if actually registered - unlikely) and further sales banned. The intractable problem is changing the violent mindset of too many in this country. Too many angry young men turn to guns when they reach some kind of emotional breaking point.

      Why? Why don’t we study other countries that have few mass murder events? Some of their low rates are because it’s much harder to get a gun. Too late here. But gun ownership is legal in most western nations. They have rational gun controls, more hoops to be able to buy guns, but they also seem to have fewer problems with murderous rage in the population, especially when removing the political mass murder events using knives and vehicles.

      I have no answers, but it seems long overdue to try to figure out why so many young men in the richest country in the world are in such despair that they murder innocent people and then, often, themselves. I’m not a shrink and really don’t know why this is so much worse here than other rich countries. It’s not because of falling rates of religious participation- most of the countries that have much better track records on this are far more secular than the US. Their young men grow up with the same movies, music, video games, and have mental illness - but far fewer are murderously violent.
      After trump was elected the first time, we visited friends in England. They took us to a charming, very small restaurant in their very small village. We chatted with the owners a bit. After a while the wife asked two questions - With a population of more than 300 million, why couldn’t American get a better President. The second question - What is it with Americans obsession with guns? I had no answers then - or now.

      Delete
    17. It would be nice if Catholics were more afraid of MAGA than trans people, Stan. My niece's transition was a surprise, but blood is thicker than water. Took me about 30 seconds to choose Hell with her than Heaven with the Church Ladies.

      Katherine, not on social media any more. It's all just people curating their lives into wonderfulness or ignoramuses promoting conspiracies.

      I sold my gun to the neighbor who keeps it locked up except for hunting. He owes me some venison. I cannot justify taking out another life, however screwed up, to save my sick old carcass. And I am a notoriously bad shot.

      I do have a quarter staff. Took that up after fencing. Similar moves. Good exercise. But I use it more to hobble around with than anything else. You can stand up straighter with less back pain on the staff than a cane. If you don't mind looking like a dork playing wizard.

      Delete
    18. "After trump was elected the first time, we visited friends in England. They took us to a charming, very small restaurant in their very small village. We chatted with the owners a bit. After a while the wife asked two questions - With a population of more than 300 million, why couldn’t American get a better President. The second question - What is it with Americans obsession with guns? I had no answers then - or now."

      My response to Brits who pretend to be shocked about various aspects of American culture is "colonialism." They sent my ancestors over here to get rid of religious nuts and undesirables they didn't want to feed, clear out the Native Americans, and feed their tobacco and sugar habit with slave labor, and they don't understand why we're materialistic, racist, and violent? They need to bone up on their history.

      Delete
    19. Jean “ It would be nice if Catholics were more afraid of MAGA than trans people”. Yes.

      “My niece's transition was a surprise,….Took me about 30 seconds to choose Hell with her than Heaven with the Church Ladies.” Two thoughts- 1) being trans is not a sin. 2). Judging others is a sin.

      Actually 3). eternity with the Church Ladies actually might be hell

      Delete
    20. At the moment, the British are outdoing us on the suppression of speech though we’re trying to catch up. You can be arrested there for displaying “Palestine Action”. One anti-genocide Brit was arrested for his t-shirt but was released after he pointed out that it said “Plasticine Action”.

      Delete
    21. As I understand it, the Church rejects treating gender dysphoria in any way except trying to reconcile the individual with the gender assigned at birth. It also considers it a sin to alter any healthy organs to accommodate a sex change. The Church rejects any union between a trans woman or man with a member of the the same sex assigned at birth.

      So, no, having gender dysphoria is not a sin any more than having same sex attraction is. As long as you feel guilty about it and repress it so you don't cause "scandal" among the faithful.

      Delete
    22. "Jim, your comment about the shooters “ arsenal”, it being a blue state, and having lots of hunters seems to imply that those who want rational gun control are seeking to take away all 2 nd Amendment rights. "

      My thought is: rational gun control requires two things: (1) political will; (2) courts willing to permit it. My point about the hunting culture is, I don't know if MInnesotans have the political will to meaningfully restrict gun ownership. As for the courts - I think the root cause is the 2nd amendment itself. The amendment needs to be amended.

      lIke Minnesota (and various other states), my state of Illinois has one large metropolitan area on the one hand, and vast tracts of farmland dotted with small towns and a few smaller industrial cities on the other hand. The cultures are very different. But in Illinois, the urban/suburban population outnumbers the Downstate/rural population pretty decisively, so those who would want maximal gun-ownership rights lack the political heft to impose their will. Not sure how the opposing forces balance one another in Minnesota.

      Our governor in Illinois, JB Pritzker, has enacted some gun-control measures that, to the surprise of many conservatives, so far has survived court challenges. These measures are, in the big picture, pretty modest, and I don't think they would have prevented the shooting in Minnesota. But it is a start. It's an antidote for those who despair that anything can be done.

      Delete
  8. Jephthah's basic problem was that he tried to negotiate with God. That is a common human problem.

    We should not be distracted by the fact that in his society, patriarchs had life and death power over their households. Wealth and power in that society was measured by the size of the household and its herds.

    So, Jephthah might have seen that offering God a member of his household might be seen as more valuable to God than offering God cattle.

    As to letting God decide by chance whom that might be, since he had no children other than his daughter (and likely she could not inherit the family fortune) it would probably have been inherited by another male relative or male servant. Maybe he thought letting God have some influence on the inheritance by removing some male among the possibilities was another way of honoring and getting favor from God.

    If we accept that the person who came through the door was God's choice, what does that tell us about God?

    Well, it tells us that God's ways of thinking are unlike ours. God in the OT often seems to prefer marginal persons who are not ranked high by others. Was the author hinting that this daughter was more important to God than any of the males?

    Another possible reading might be that God was simply being even more clever than Jephthah, by eliminating the daughter he deprived Jephthah of any offspring even though those offspring would not have been his heirs. Maybe Jephthah realized that he really valued his daughter and her possible children much more than he had thought. The daughter asks for two months to mourn that she will never have children.

    From the NAB commentary:

    Jephthah’s rash vow and its tragic consequences reflect a widespread folklore motif, most familiar in the Greek story of Iphigenia and her father, Agamemnon. The sacrifice of children was strictly forbidden by Mosaic law (Lv 18:21; 20:2–5), and when the biblical writers report its occurrence, they usually condemn it in strong terms (2 Kgs 16:3; 21:6; Jer 7:31; 19:5). In this case, however, the narrator simply records the old story, offering no comment on the acceptability of Jephthah’s extreme gesture. The story may have been preserved because it provided an explanation of the custom described in vv. 39–40 according to which Israelite women mourned Jephthah’s daughter annually in a four-day ceremony.

    I think this explains one reason for the story getting into the history. But there are likely far more important reasons such as I have suggested above.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I read that custom of mourning Jephthah's daugher is still observed by some Israeli Jewish women. Kind of sad and touching. She wasn't named in the OT account, but there are a couple of names given her in folklore.
      Personally I always thought that, given two months to go off and mourn her virginity, it would have been a good idea to get permanently lost and not come back.

      Delete