I am not going to say too much about the trial, since it is being discussed in the media ad infinitum. This is a good short article in The Week. It had this to say:
"My side or demographic group innocent, yours guilty" is a tempting conclusion to draw in a period of intense political division and disagreement over who is the reliable narrator of basic facts. But it is not an approach likely to lead to justice."
I have a sense of deja vu about the trial. It takes me back to the OJ Simpson trial. Not that the cases are remotely similar, except that both involve murder, and race was an issue.
Apparently I'm not the only one who sees some similarities. According to this article, "Kyle Rittenhouse’s defense team has reportedly recruited the expertise of Dr. Jo-Ellan Dimitrius, a defense jury expert, who had served as a former jury consultant for O.J. Simpson."
Our criminal justice system is just as broken as our healthcare system. Both are as broken as our country is right now. I honestly think that if there were an easy way to do it, becoming two separate countries ( based roughly on red and blue divisions of today) might make everyone happier. The blue states might need to prepare for an influx of people of color from the red state country though. The red states might have to figure out how to get by without all the tax money from the blue states they helps support them.
ReplyDeleteI have never spent time in Texas - only driven through parts of it on a couple of cross- country drives. I will never spend time there now that they have gone full bore for vigilante “ justice “ while pushing no legal barriers gun ownership.
Kyle Rittenhouse’s strutting, braggadocio behavior after his arrest turned me against him immediately. I could not serve on that jury. I could not be open- minded.
In most states the blue and the red are too intertwined for secession to actually work. Even in the ones that are predominantly one or the other. We need to learn how to do our own thinking again and not rely on groupthink.
DeleteWhen I was a kid our family had friends and relatives from Texas. What I remember about them was their hospitality, kindness, and manners; and a good sense of humor. I wouldn't have recognized the redneck vibe that comes across now. Of course it has been more than 50 years since I spent any time there. I hope some of tge good qualities have survived, but the people I knew have long since passed on.
DeleteI’m quite sure that Texans and most southerners are quite hospitable, mannerly, and kind to white people like themselves. Probably even to minorities who are in serious trouble and need assistance in public. But they vote against justice for minorities, and many are now openly racist, unfortunately and work to elect politicians who promote white Christian nationalism. Trump made open racism acceptable. Probably better that we learned how much racism still exists because we can’t reduce it if we don’t even know it’s still there. I saw something on FB that is all too true- the people who threw rocks at Ruby Bridges when she was trying to go to school are the same people who now don’t want their grandchildren to know that they threw rocks at Ruby Bridges. They want to erase the ugly from some of our history.
This, like OJ, is one of those media obsession stories that I now avoid. The basic problem is that we no longer have real reporting, boots on the ground fact checkers. We just have a bunch of echo chambers where things bounce around, and people ride their favor hobby horses going nowhere. Journalism really went off the rails when we went to the 24/7 news cycle. Now no one can take time out to check the facts.
ReplyDeleteWhile cable TV has accelerated everything the seeds were there way back over twenty years. My mother cancelled the many newspapers we had received in my youth. She got tired of reading page one stories that were later retracted in stories buried deep within the newspaper.
Jack, I agree with you about the media obsession stories.
DeleteMy overriding thought is that if that poor, dumb goof of a kid hadn't been armed that night, two people would still be alive today.
ReplyDeleteMy guess is, when he began sobbing on the stand, it humanized him in the eyes of the jurors. At that point, he was no longer just a collection of demographics or an abstract politicized identity; he became a teenager who did something he regrets and can't undo now.
I heard somewhere that the jury asked the judge if they could find him guilty of lesser charges, and the judge said yes. So maybe it's possible they'll find him guilty of manslaughter or negligence or some such.
I'd make a terrible judge. I'd always want to give people another chance. But it's hard to figure that the jury will let him off scot-free. This explainer from the Associated Press lists the charges against him and the maximum penalties. Some of them are pretty severe.
https://apnews.com/article/kyle-rittenhouse-police-shootings-wisconsin-kenosha-3febaa501c57a6b54e168353fe0b2a26
One unanswered question is who supplied him with the AK-15. And his mother's role is certainly suspect. She either drove him there, or depending on some accounts, met him there. Seems like she could have tried to dissuade him from going to the scene.
DeleteIt doesn't seem like they could make a first degree charge stick. But 2nd degree or manslaughter, yes.
Katherine, I would have to Google this to be sure, but as I recall, the gun was purchased with stimulus money and his mother drove him there. And I admit to finding his tears to be highly suspect, given the way he acted after he was arrested for the killings. He strutted and bragged and loved being a new right- wing hero. He’s certainly changed his tune and I don’t think it’s sincere. But he’s been coached on how to win the sympathy of jury members. They want the jurors to react the way Jim has - think he’s just a dumb, goof of a kid who is sorry. Not. I believe that you mentioned that his defense team ( paid for by a right- wing group who set up a GoFundMe account) hired one of the best jury selection consultants in the country. This is all being carefully orchestrated to make him the object of sympathy, rather than the two unarmed people who died at his hands. I hope the police who encouraged him and his friends to be a vigilante protection unit get charged with something. They encouraged these armed thugs instead of telling them to get rid of the guns and stay away.
DeleteYes, I really do think he's a dumb screw-up of a teen. Arm him with a gun and put him in a situation he's ill-equipped to handle and the tragedy results. I haven't heard that he strutted and boasted, but dumb screw-up teens have been known to do that, too.
DeleteFor sure it didn't happen in a vacuum. If police encouraged vigilantes to show up with guns they are partly responsible. And I put the mother in the same category as adults who buy alcohol for minors. Actually a worse category, because a gun doesn't have any other purpose than to kill something or someone.
DeleteYup - typical screwed up teen. Instead of TPing houses, or shoplifting a tech toy, he spent $1200 on an assault weapon ( designed to kill as many people as possible in as short a time as pose) then traveled out of state to join a few others in a “ protection squad”.
ReplyDeleteNot your everyday screwed up teenager sneaking into the movies. A kid fascinated by killing weapons and the prospect of violence.
Your trust is misplaced.
Anne - for a while, I did prison ministry to incarcerated teens. They weren't in jail for TPing houses. Teens are capable of committing serious crimes (and sins). Some of the ones I ministered to were gangbangers who had committed violent crimes. Many of them really are on the verge of screwing up the rest of their lives. I'm convinced they're not irredeemable, though.
DeleteAnd they are teens. I am running counter to the overall culture in this (certainly to conservative culture!), but I don't think teens should be subjected to the same penalties as adults. I think that, when possible and appropriate, they should be given an opportunity (in some cases, after serving some time) to be better citizens and better persons.
I can understand that he comes across to you as an unlikeable person, but we can't let those personal judgments affect how justice is determined. Whether he is an unremorseful braggart or a genuine and contrite person, whatever the jury and judge decide should be determined by the facts of the case and the law - and their legal judgment should be qualified by mercy.
This case is even worse than I thought. I will say that I don’t think he went there intending to kill someone yet by carrying the weapon he set up the situation. This story from the New Yorker magazine has far more information than I have previously read. Very frightening. I also couldn’t help but note the quote of Paul Gosar that Rittenhouse was 100% justified. Gosar is the same guy who released a fake video of him murdering AOC.
DeleteIn reading this story, imagine how differently events would have happened if Rittenhouse had been a 17 year old black kid with an illegal gun who shot 3 white men in what he claimed was self defense
.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/07/05/kyle-rittenhouse-american-vigilante
About the New Yorker article, yikes, what a mess! It's a wonder that more people weren't killed, with all the weapons around and the volatility of the situation. There was far more information than I had previously read, also.
DeleteI will say that I have a more favorable impression of Wendy Rittenhouse than I did before. It appears that she didn't buy the gun, nor did she drive Kyle to Kenosha.
Interesting that in a black lives matter situation all parties were white. It was white-on-white crime. Of course, some racists hate "race traitors" more than the race they hate.
ReplyDeleteWith respect to Rep. Gosar retweeting the killing-the-AOC-monster video, Chris Hedges said that inflammatory rhetoric, usually discounted as talk, precedes actual action.
We have morally unanchored politicians indulging themselves with their hyperbole. When adults behave like children, how will the children behave?
Stanley, I hadn't realized before that all the parties to the incident were white. That just adds another layer of weird.
DeleteI was struck that all this seemed to be in defense of property. Not that anyone is in favor of destruction of property. But it can be repaired and replaced, a life can't be.
I didn’t realize that the men shot by Rittenhouse were white either. I need to pay more attention. One of Rittenhouse’s friends bought the gun. He was 18 and could do so legally. However he has charges against him for giving it to a minor, even though it was Rittenhouse’s money.
DeleteProperty can be replaced and the business was insured anyway. But I don’t think it’s ever right or wise to use violence in a protest, even for a good cause, including damaging property.
Property can also be damaged by being the scene of several murders. You may remember the mass shooting in a supermarket in Boulder last April. When we were there last summer, we needed to pick up our son at a bus stop in a shopping center near his home. Didn’t realize at first why there was crime scene tape around an entire huge parking lot in front of a store, keeping cars out. It was the parking lot for the grocery store where all those people were killed by a young guy with an assault rifle. A gun he could buy without restrictions or waiting period because a judge had two weeks earlier overthrown the law Boulder had passed banning the sale of these weapons in the county. The biggest villain in these cases may be America’s gun culture. The store had never reopened. Not sure what they will do with it. Were the business losses insured or only the building? I imagine only the building, which was not damaged physically. Looking at the tape and the emptiness of the place, realizing why, gave me the shivers. And brought back memories of the murders of my niece and her husband by another 17 year old boy with access to a gun, this one in his home.his mother had posted FB photos of her son shooting guns. She was proud of him. Her FB page was taken down of course.,
Katherine and Anne, I think anyone can be excused for missing that everyone involved was white. I found this mentioned by journalist Matt Taibbi who has become a metacritic of news media, whether right or liberal. Although Fox is the most egregious fabricator, main stream media in general seems to stray from the factual and likes to make everything as sensational as possible. Omission or muting of details can be as effective as outright lying.
DeleteStanley, I never watch TV news - stopped when my kids were young because I couldn’t ever know what they might show. Never got back in the habit. For years I listened to radio news when commuting and read the newspaper. Now I read newspapers online and seldom look at photos, just the text. So I think my lack of awareness of the race of the men Rittenhouse house killed reflects some unconscious racial stereotyping in my mind. As much as we white people fight it, it’s there, buried maybe, something we may actively oppose, but it’s there. Even though I knew that many white people are involved in anti- racism protests, my mind jumped to a conclusion based on racial stereotypes. Rittenhouse white, opposed to BLM, fascinated with guns and military/police style legal violence, trump supporter so his victims must have been black. I will reflect on this and work on it.
DeleteOne reason I never watch tv news now - any tv news- is because of the sensationalism of both sides. However, I also know from a big project one of my sons was involved with for a couple of years in SV, that the news sources on the right lie and mislead far more than those on the left. They were working on ways to pick up the misinformation from bot farms from Russia, China. Slovenia etc that plant lies and misinformation on the internet, and also learn which media sources picked up the misinformation and then broadcast it. Of the top ten spreaders of these lies, eight were “ conservative “ news sources, with Fox one of the worst. As left bias as NYT and WaPo are, they do employ fact checkers. Fox and other conservative sources do not, mpOur son said that CNN cherry picks what to focus on in order to mislead about the reality, ( and not reliable as a result) but they don’t report outright lies very often, which Fox does do. Right of Fox, like Newsmax and One America, don’t hesitate to promote lies at all, even worse than Fox.
The most reliable sources include The Economist, and similar, but they aren’t really “ news” - more in- depth coverage analysis of issues.
I've been aware, virtually since the incident, that Rittenhouse's victims are white. But this all happened, if not in my "back yard", at least "down the block": Kenosha is not far away, and Rittenhouse is from one of the Chicago far-outer suburbs. I'm sure I've been exposed to a good deal more media coverage of the story than folks not in this area.
DeleteI agree that protesters have no right to destroy property. The argument that "it's insured" is one often trotted out by those who think it's justifiable to destroy property during a protest. Personally, I don't think that stands up to scrutiny. The property being destroyed, and its owners, almost always are unconnected to the proximate cause of the protests. In addition, many insurance policies have deductibles or similar mechanisms which cause the owners to have to pay out of their pocket - sometimes it's a substantial amount. Also, insurers aren't in the business of bankrolling the wanton property destruction of irresponsible protesters, so it's unjust to soak them with the tab. Also, the destruction caused in protests and riots isn't always easily repaired. City centers and neighborhoods can bear the scars of civil violence for years or even decades. It really does hurt the entire community, including those on whose behalf the protesters ostensibly are protesting.
The pattern in the Kenosha protests followed the same general pattern that was observable in various cities around the country that summer: mostly-peaceful marches would happen during daylight hours. And then, after dark (and curfew), a more violent element would appear, who seemed more intent on causing destruction and battling the police (and, as I understand it, counter-protesters). The Kenosha police didn't deploy - may not have possessed - sufficient force to control the situation in the streets. The Wisconsin governor, Tony Evers, had National Guard troops on standby, but sent in only a small fraction of the available manpower. For this he is being roasted by conservatives.
FWIW, I don't think Rittenhouse's victims were spotless lambs. One (the one who lived) apparently pointed his own gun at Rittenhouse before Rittenhouse shot him. Another allegedly chased Rittenhouse down and pounded him with a skateboard - surely a dangerous weapon. To be sure, none of them deserved to die, or be shot. Arming that immature kid with such a deadly weapon was an awful lapse in judgment on the part of someone(s).
Thé awful « lapse in judgment « is due to the power of the gun lobby that has given $ millions to politicians so that there are no meaningful gun control regulations. Next it’s due to the promotion of gun ownership and violence by many « conservative « groups and politicians. Look up some of the international data on gun deaths - suicides, homicides, and police shootings. The US is SO far out if alignment with the civilized countries of the world, including gun deaths due to police shootings. But of course, the police in other civilized countries undergo a much more rigorous selection process, AND significantly longer training - à year or more instead of weeks or a few months. We are right up there with the worst violent countries of the world, mostly in Latin America and Africa.
DeleteThe police in some countries don’t even carry guns themselves.
It’s all part of the sickness that is destroying America.
I’m glad that you don’t think that the two unarmed men who died at Rittenhouse’s hands didn’t « deserve » it. I am shocked that it seems to have crossed your mind that it’s ok that they got shot since they may not have been spotless lambs.
Most of the victims of police shootings aren’t hardened criminals either. George Floyd was unarmed. Did he deserve death by cop because he passed a fake $20?
Hi Anne, I'd add to your analysis of reasons we have gun violence, the 2nd Amendment. That is something that no gun lobby, politician or individual judge can directly control. Personally, I think it's past time to modify the 2nd Amendment.
DeleteI don't understand the 2nd part of your comment. I can only think you misunderstood my comment. I don't think any of the Kenosha victims deserved to get shot. You seem to think I think the opposite. What I alluded to regarding the victims' actions which led up to their getting shot, is what has come out in trial testimony (and some of it was reported by journalists long before the trial). I have no idea what the jury will come up with, but it's possible Rittenhouse's team's claim of self-defense will be accepted and he'll be found not guilty on all charges.
Jim, I agree with you that it's time to amend the 2nd Amendment. In addition, those who encouraged vigilantes to come to the scene need to be held responsible. Vigilantism is something that needs to be nipped in the bud. Actually it may be too late to nip it in the bud, it seems to be in full flower.
DeleteI own guns. I have a concealed carry permit. As far as I knew, one is only permitted to use a gun on another human being in self defense. I understood that using it to stop a crime, even a rape, would lead to revocation of my permit, even possible criminal prosecution. Only the cops have sanction to kill or interdiction of crime with the threat of violence. But maybe that's changing.
DeleteWhen I was in college, around Rittenhouse's age, there were plenty of riots in the cities. The last thing I ever thought was to walk into a riot with a weapon.
David French in The Atlantic,
ReplyDeletehttps://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/11/kyle-rittenhouse-right-self-defense-role-model/620715/
The 2nd amendment was added during a time in American history that was very different - 1791. A couple of years ago I did some extensive research into both gun death statistics internationally and into regulations in several other civilized countries. Contrary to popular belief, individuals can own guns in other western nations. However, there are common sense regulations on private gun ownership. For example, Canada not only requires background checks, and gun registration ( without gun show and private sale loopholes), it mandates a long period of training before someone can get a license and can buy a gun. France, England, Australia, and most other civilized countries do the same kind of thing. In the US we mandate driver training, a temporary license, and a waiting period to get a driver’s license, but any 18 year old in most states can just go ahead and buy a gun. Including assault weapons. A year or two ago there was a mass shooting with an assault weapon in Canada. The guns were banned within a week or two. When the anti- Muslim terrorist killed dozens in a New Zealand mosque with an automatic rifle, they were banned in about 48 hours. A similar incident in Australia which left many dead in the 1990s, also resulted in a ban of the most dangerous guns. Gun ownership is legal in all of these countries and most other civilized countries, but they also know that civilians don’t need military weapons, that training, licensing, and thorough background checks are just common sense. Nobody has suggested taking away all the guns. But reasonable gun control could make everyone safer, including cops, who might be less trigger happy if they didn’t fear that the person they were stooping had a gun . However our country’s culture seems to be enthralled with guns and with violence in general. It reflects the cultural sickness that is now endemic in too much of our populace. I think it’s probably too late to change this, as the politicians on the right are actually encouraging it.
ReplyDeleteRittenhouse not guilty on all counts. Not a surprise.
ReplyDeleteI'm not surprised either. One may not like the verdict, but the jury had to decide given the laws in the state of Wisconsin. President Biden said that we had to respect that the system worked, and I think he is right. I don't disapprove of the verdict so much as I do some right wing politicians who are trying to make a culture war hero out of Kyle. He got lucky, what he needs is to drop out of the media sight and do some sober reflection about the direction his life should take. If the likes of Gaetz and Gosar lionize him, sober reflection is what won't happen.
DeleteKatherine here. For some reason when I type on my phone it doesn't recognize me.
DeleteAgree with Katherine.
DeleteOne more article on Rittenhouse- from Religion Nees Service. Upsetting.
Deletehttps://religionnews.com/2021/11/20/kyle-rittenhouse-whiteness-and-a-divinely-ordained-license-to-kill/