I have mentioned more than once that I find the concept of intercessory prayer to be very challenging. The conventional definition (that God intervenes in the natural order at the request of a saint intercessor that someone has prayed to) doesn't line up with my concept of God as being equally loving to every person created. I don't see God doing favors for me because I pray to St. Somebody to intercede and get my son a job or save the life of my friend. God doesn't play favorites.
The Shalem blog quotes Howard Thurman and Walter Wink who provide better understandings of intercessory prayer
Howard Thurman, the mystic, theologian, teacher, and advisor to the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., wrote about what he thinks goes on when we pray. Thurman wrote, “The experience of communion with God through prayer may elicit an expression of concern for someone whose need is great. When we share our concerns for others with God in prayer, we do two things: we expose the need of the other to our own life and resources, making it possible for us to have new insights of helpfulness and creative [engagement] with the other.” Secondly, Thurman writes, “prayer for others may quicken the spirit of the other to a sudden upsurging of the hunger for God, putting them in the path of God’s loving energies.”
Walter Wink, the biblical scholar, theologian, and activist, writing about what he thinks we’re doing when we pray, said this: “Intercession is spiritual defiance of what is, in the name of what God has promised.” He added: “No doubt our prayers to God reflect back upon us as a divine command to become the answer to our prayer. The change in one person thus changes what God can do in the world.” Communion in and with the Holy One’s active, loving, presence, and obedience to what we experience in that communion, lead us to realize God’s will on earth as it is already and presently manifested in the timeless realms. “History belongs to the intercessors,” Wink wrote, “who pray the future into being.”
https://shalem.org/2021/02/04/what-do-we-think-were-doing-when-we-pray/
When I pray, it helps channel my mind out of the useless grooves of worry and into thinking about what I can do for someone. Since my mother died, I find myself praying for myself more.
ReplyDeleteI don't expect prayers to change the trajectory of events as much as to make me an instrument of some small comfort.
I am not good at giving pep talks or saying the right things. I am good at practical help.
When I started chemo, one of my co-workers told me she was praying for me. I felt an almost physical sense of relief. I wouldn't pretend to explain it. It has never happened before or since when people told me they were praying for me. But it was very sustaining and I have been less fearful of treatment since then.
Teresa of Avila: Christ has no body now but yours. No hands, no feet on earth but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses all the world. Yours are the hands, yours are the feet, yours are the eyes, you are his body. Christ has no body now on earth but yours.”
DeleteJean: I don't expect prayers to change the trajectory of events as much as to make me an instrument of some small comfort.
Exactly.
"Christ has no hands now but yours" is what I have asked Raber to inscribe on my gravestone, as St. Teresa has inscribed that prayer on my heart.
DeleteIt is very difficult for me to reconcile the Catholic conception of classical theism (a God who cannot change, among other things) with the Catholic understanding of praying for saints to intercede. I remember Father Komonchak referring to Aquinas in an attempt to explain, but it was over my head (at best). Prayer of petition, whether done directly or by asking one of the saints to intercede seems to me always to involve the idea of persuading God to do something he would not otherwise have done—in other words, changing God's mind. Particularly difficult is the idea of Mary being the most powerful intercessor, the rationale being that if we can persuade Mary to intercede for us, how can God turn down a request from his own mother?
ReplyDeleteDavid, yes, I think the "prayer experts" (clergy and theologians) have to do a lot of mind-numbing acrobatics to move people away from the "please, Daddy and Mother Mary and Uncle St. Anthony" concept of prayer that they were taught in childhood.
DeletePrayer may connect us with the Infinite and open is to possibilities that we and others may be better for, and that's really all I understand of it.
Thank you for this, Anne. Good readings from the Shalam blog. I especially love this bit, "Communion in and with the Holy One’s active, loving, presence, and obedience to what we experience in that communion, lead us to realize God’s will on earth as it is already and presently manifested in the timeless realms. “
ReplyDeleteI think of prayer as a relationship, a conversation with God. As in I Thessalonians 5:17-18 " Pray without ceasing. In everything give thanks, for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you." It is said that prayer has its origin in God, rather than in ourselves, that when we pray we are responding to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.
Intercessory prayer is a mysterious thing. I don't think we are changing God's mind, just that he wants us to do it. I do think there is a kind of synergy associated with it, if that makes any sense.
Yes, your idea of synergy makes a lot of sense to me. There are lots of medieval mystics who would subscribe to the idea that prayer unites us with God and prepares us to do and endure God's will and to see it as good.
DeleteFr. James Martin flogging his book on prayer via Colbert. Might have been a better interview were Colbert not so wedded to being a know-it-all conversation hog with Catholic guests. Made me interested in reading the book. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tS72tzSD908
ReplyDeleteWhy haven't I caught COVID? I put myself at risk, probably more than others. How has it missed me? Sheer luck? Good genes? The intervention of God or my guardian angel or a saint? I can't possibly answer with certainty. But to deny the possibility of divine protection is to deny what Jesus had said, as plainly as he is recorded as saying anything.
ReplyDeleteThe Gospel reading for this very day is of Jesus healing people and expelling demons. Complete fiction?
What is the point of praying the Our Father if we don't think God will listen to those petitions and grant our prayers? Why did Jesus teach it to us?
Many, many believing Christians are certain that God has intervened to help them. Is it possible that at least some of them are right?
I am certain that God has intervened to answer my prayers countless times. But the hardest part of saying the Our Father is saying "Thy will be done". Not that I think God ever wills harm. But He willed to give 7 billion-plus human beings free will. Which means there are a lot of wild cards out there.
DeleteSometimes I have prayed for things that I didn't get, that I can now realize would have been harmful to me. So sometimes the answer is "No", or "Not yet" or "Wait".
I must believe in intercessory prayer, otherwise I wouldn't do it. I have a bunch of names on a piece of paper in my prayer book, and every so often I have to re-do it. But there are some names that are always there, all the time.
We have spoken of the need to be "Gods hands", to be an answer to someone's prayers. But there are situations where we are powerless, that the only thing we can do is pray, and turn the situation or person over to God's care. An example; there is a deacon page on Facebook, which is open to the deacons of the archdiocese and their families. There was a request from one of the deacons lately, requesting prayers for his wife. She had been ill for a long time and was now in hospice. Of course everyone assured him of their prayers. Then there was a message saying that she had passed on, peacefully. It was a situation where the pray-ers could do nothing but pray, but hopefully she felt the support. "For everything, there is a season. "
DeleteKatherine, that Facebook page sounds like a good thing.
DeleteI struggle to hold all these ideas simultaneously:
(1) I am a good person
(1.1) ... because God made me (I break this out into a subpoint because not everyone accepts this part)
(2) But I sin, and someday I will die.
(2.1) ... because humanity fell
(3) But Jesus destroyed death.
(3.1) But I'll still die.
(4) (And then everything that comes after death: judgment, purgatory, heaven. And stick the end times in there somewhere.)
It's not very intuitive. I think most of us (at least I) tend to get stuck at (1) or (2). Those are the parts that make sense to people. It's all the other points and subpoints which we take on faith.
I don’t know, Jim. Believing something doesn’t make it true.
ReplyDeleteMost Americans have not been infected with Covid, including even most of those who are on the front lines. Your exposure is relatively little compared to them. Also, you are in good health and you take the recommended precautions- mask, social distancing, and good hygiene. The Asian countries where the population followed these simple precautions have had relatively low numbers of Covid cases.
God gave us minds and perhaps that is the intervention. But I assume that God expects us to use the intelligence we were given.
If you believe that God intervenes to help people who happen to have Christian family or friends to pray for intercession, what does that say about what kind of “person” God is? A person who takes care of those who butter him up? Who bestows favors on buddies? Would a God who is love treat all the non- Christians ( most of humanity) as second class, unworthy of divine intervention because they don’t belong to the right tribe?
If that is how God operates, I would just as soon skip spending an eternity in his presence.
Anne, what's your view of the Our Father?
DeleteNot believing something doesn't make it untrue. It seems natural to ask God for help and protection during prayer. I suppose one can pray selfishly and stupidly like one can ruin everything else. And there are other ways and reasons for prayer, I admit. But I'm not going to intellectually bonsai my or anyone's practice of prayer because, for one reason, my intellect is limited. I also don't see how anyone's Christian prayers devalues the prayers of Hindus. Hindus pray all the time for intercession so why should I stop.
ReplyDeleteI may be misunderstanding the thrust of the topic. I agree wholeheartedly that we are God's hands, feet, ears, eyes. I think God works through multiple "channels", perhaps including some about which we're oblivious.
ReplyDeleteWhat I am uncomfortable with is saying, "God does this, but only this and not the other thing."
I am familiar with the problems of theodicy and don't have better answers than anyone else. God gave us brains, and we should use them, but there are puzzles that mine can't solve, at least not all at once.
So far nobody has addressed the issue of what it would mean if God intervenes for only those who pray for intervention.
DeleteDoes God not care about the billions of people whom God is said to also have created and is said to love - who do not pray for interventions? The God who supposedly is omniscient and knows every single one of the needs and desires of the ( currently) 7 billion human beings on the earth without us having to ask? Does God only favor those who look at prayers for intervention as an expected transaction? Or who think they can bargain with God?
Does God not receive prayers from the billions because they are not Christians? Or perhaps are not believers of any religion?
Perhaps people pray for God’s intervention simply because we have no other source of hope.. we WANT to believe that God will save my child even though God turned a deaf ear on the pleas of my friend when her child was dying? Because we ARE helpless?
It comforts US to believe that maybe this time God will answer our prayer in the way we hope for. Even though God did not intervene for our friend or neighbor.
There is nothing wrong with people turning to prayer because they hope it will help. At least not most of the time. But some become disillusioned with God when they see that prayers for specific requests are not answered in the way people wish. And so they lose faith in God. Maybe it’s not right to teach people that God is like Santa Claus and you will get at least one of the presents you ask for.
But if we pray for our friend who is sick, maybe it does raise our own awareness, and love for our neighbors and will lead us to provide comfort and help and support. Maybe there is a mind- body connection of some kind that provides comfort to the one prayed for. There is a lot we don’t understand about the powers of the mind.
I have a friend, a devout evangelical, who is “ in” to healing prayer. Mostly for herself. She sometimes writes out her “ witness” stories of how God intervened to save her from one of the many health issues ( mostly minor) she has told me about in the 40 years I’ve known her. She wants to believe that God intervened, not that it is perfectly normal for a good doctor to figure out the problem and prescribe a perfectly normal human ( not divine) treatment.
Just as it’s likely that not getting Covid is because of a combination of decent health, a strong immune system AND taking recommended measures to lower the odds rather than because God has wrapped someone in an invisible shield because they prayed not to get Covid.
Praying doesn’t hurt, but the benefit seems to be the change it might effect in the pray-er, not in the outcome prayed for.
I could not respect a God who plays favorites.
Theodicy is an enormous hurdle when it comes to having faith that God who is love. But so is intercession prayer because of what it implies about God - that God does not love without strings attached.
Anne - right, I don't understand, either, why some prayers tend to get answered and others (many!) don't. I think we'd have to say, comparing the sheer volume of prayers offered to the relative paucity of miracles observed, that most prayers don't get answered.
DeleteOne thing I'd like to observe regarding your comment: I agree with you that people find comfort in asking God for help, and there is something to be said for that. St. Paul, who understood travails and persecution, has written about the "God of consolation", and what a spiritual gift that is.
What I'd like to add to that is: it's also worth noting that *Jesus told us to pray intercessory prayer*. In other words: besides whatever spiritual benefit comes from consolation, there also is a reason rooted in revelation to ask God (or saints or angels, or perhaps one's deceased grandmother) to intercede for us.
I wish these conversations didn't have to turn into arguments, though I can get pretty dismissive of views I see as magical thinking or childish.
ReplyDeleteI'm the end, saying what I think happens when I pray probably reveals less about God than about !y own lack of imagination.
I don't deny that Jim can call down special COVID protection for himself, that charismatics can pray like the angels in holy ecstasy, that prayer groups can ease the dying, that St Julian of Norwich saw visions when she prayed, etc etc.
A large part of my conversion to Trinitarian Christianity was being alive to possibilities and divine power that, to my own experiences and upbringing, seemed improbable or illogical.
For all I know, I got MPN cancer because God knew I had the motivation, communication skills, and empathy to fill a need for others who needed info about it. And maybe because God knew it would give the last act of my life some positive meaning. I doubt all that, but I don't know.
Jean, yes to everything you wrote - except your lack of imagination!
DeleteAnd just for the record, I don't actually pray for my own COVID protection. I don't actually pray very much for myself, inasmuch as I lead a more or less charmed life.
I have a whole list of COVID-related things I pray for. I even prayed for Trump when he was president, that he get the COVID crisis right. Not sure those prayers were answered, either ...
I'm sure your prayers are generous re COVID, just riffing off what you had said above about guardian angels, etc. I am always accusing my guardian angel of being out for smoke breaks and being asleep at the switch. But, given the nuttiness of my childhood, my genetic predispositions, and my proclivity to "seize the moment," I may learn that mine was the hardest working drudge in the Celestial Choir.
DeleteLove the idea that a guardian angel takes smoke breaks! Or maybe checking their smartphones.
DeleteMy grandmother used to get really worked up when the lives of people she loved took a bad turn. At her funeral, I told my brother God was going to get an earful. He said, pfft, God went to hide in the garage as soon as he saw her coming and told the Host, "Don't tell Lucile I'm out here." That's what Grampa would do when she was on a tear. Gramma was never shy about speaking up.
DeleteWhen I was about 15 my favorite teacher (I still visit him when I am in Calif - he is almost 95 now) told me that I "think too much". It was the first time someone close to me had said that, but not the last. I have learned that few people want to wrestle with the things I wrestle with. They simply accept the, or say "it's a mystery". I wish my mind worked that way, but it doesn't.
ReplyDeleteI respect those here, and I come here to find different kinds of thinking than my own. I'm sorry if it upsets some people, so perhaps I too should take a break from this board.
My eldest son has been my main source of anxiety from the day he was born, literally, to now. So much fear and anxiety about him, every day of his life. One sleepless night, when he was about 8, I pulled open a bible about 3 am and did what some recommend - just let it fall open somewhere. It was proverbs - "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding". So, "trust" has been my mantra for decades now. But it's so hard because so often my own understanding wants to be satisfied.
I started this simply because - as one who doubts the standard understanding of intercessory prayer - I simply liked the quotes in the Shalem blog. They affirm my own beliefs that it is up to us to do God's work in the world. To respond to need.
As far as the Lord's Prayer goes - it's a prayer. It is not a prayer for interecession. It is a prayer that acknowledges God as creator, as Holy. It acknowledges that it is us who are to work to bring about God's kingdom - now, on the earth. It's not simply a future thing. Kingdom isn't simply heaven. It is a petition - give us this day our daily bread - I understand that to mean grace, strength, courage - to build the kingdom, and to be able to forgive, as God forgives.
For me, prayer is a conversation with God - as Katherine mentioned.
I think in your groove a lot, and I don't want to fob off your questions with platitudes about the ways of the Lord being mysterious.
DeleteI know people who pray to lose 20 pounds for summer, to get a convenient beauty shop appointment, for Bob Evans not to be out of the all-you-can-eat fish bar, for their kid to get into a certain college, and for money.
Some of these people also believe that God does not entertain the prayers of non-Christians (or non-Catholics).
I think they are self-involved morons.
I can't know what God thinks (though implicit in the Prime Directive--Love the Lord with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself--is a caution not to be self-centered and asking God to smooth away the speed bumps in your Road of Life).
But even if God is up there rolling his eyes right along with me at some of these requests, how would that change the way I have worked out prayer in my own life?
It's not up to me to fix other people's dumb prayers.
Anne,
DeleteI thought this was an interesting post. Shortly I will respond with a post of my own in the same general area.
It is important to question our assumptions. One of the reasons I did not respond to the conversation is that I suspect my assumptions may be different than others. And it will take some time to explain those assumptions.
What you say doesn't upset me, but then I had the advantage of working for several decades in the "talk therapy" culture of the public mental health system. It smoothed out some of the sharp edges of my academic background. A colleague there with a computer background describe it as.
"People talk and talk. At first people seem to disagree but no one acknowledges that. After awhile everyone seems to on the same page, they are all happy but nobody does anything. We electrical engineers fight like hell about the best solution but when a decision is made we all jump in and do the work."
I suspect we have a lot of varied professional cultures here and it is probably a miracle that we don't have a lot of colliding intellectual cultures.