The NY Times July 4 story on the Francis-Putin meeting had a whole lot of interesting nuggets for those of us who live in a a media environment in which news stops at the water's edge. But this one I found especially intriguing:
In a recent interview with The Financial Times, in which Mr. Putin declared the end of Western liberalism, he was asked whether religion would play a greater role in national culture and cohesion.“This is exactly why I will now say a few words about Catholics,” he said, embarking on what seemed like a defense of the traditions of the Catholic Church.“Sometimes I get the feeling that these liberal circles are beginning to use certain elements and problems of the Catholic Church as a tool for destroying the church itself,” Mr. Putin said. “This is what I consider to be incorrect and dangerous.”
Russian electronic interference with the election processes of the U.S. (2016), France, Italy and other countries has always been aimed at -- in addition to supporting the more domestically divisive candidate -- turning the national recipients against each other. Obviously, there are always fractures to work with. So here you see Putin acting like his disinformation agencies in trying to widen existing fractures.
The technique is obvious once you see it. Of course, if you are on the (temporarily) winning side, there is no reason to look.
I've been posting on a local Cork Ireland bulletin board for years (not as unagidon). It has a pretty fair representation of the population in terms of left/right, age/sex, and the various political parties.
ReplyDeleteTheir right wingers (who to a person love Trump) like to complain about the decline of the West, the threats to "our" civilization by swarthy Africans and Arabs, etc and often when they do, they cite the decline of the Church in Ireland (and Christianity in the West in general) as both a sign and as a problem.
But when I press them, none will admit that they themselves are active Catholics. And when I press them further, some of them will say that stronger religious traditions and institutions are desperately needed, but not by them personally.
Of course, Putin himself is not suggesting that liberalism is simply dying. He thinks it needs to be killed by a sort of cultural revolution, or rather, a cultural counter revolution. And I'm sure he knows just who should lead this.
Tom, do you really think the Russian election chicanery moved the needle on Trump's election? I'd need to be convinced. I don't think it's okay that Russia tried to interfere, but I don't believe it was particularly effective interference.
ReplyDeletePutin's views on religion are something I am never very sure about. How genuine is his attachment to Russian Orthodoxy? I suppose there is something genuine there. That does not exclude the possibility that he finds Orthodoxy useful for his political purposes. (Nor does it exclude that this constitutes a risk to Orthodoxy, both spiritually and in how it is perceived by the larger society).
So when he speaks up in defense of Catholicism (presumably of the variety beloved by Pope Benedict, as a conserver of culture), there is a possibility he is speaking from the heart, and also that he has a political agenda.
Jim, I didn't say the Russians "moved the needle." They wanted three things: Hillary out, the Donfather in, and dissension and feelings that our system of government has failed among the people.
DeleteAll three happened.
Whatever "moved the needle" on the election -- whether it was caused by the Russians or just a happy coincidence with the their effort -- the result was plenty of dissension. Even generals got queasy when General Bonespur ordered up tanks, planes and the Joint Chiefs to set off one of his Castro-length speeches because he has used other talks to the troops as provocation of hatred for domestic enemies like Nancy Pelosi. There are people I used to know of whom it must be said we don't talk any more because they think I am one of those traitors that the tanks and Castro-length speeches are supposed to protect them from. And now (in mostly liberal) circles, articles are beginning to appear on how maybe the American experiment has run its course. After all, there's a long way from a piece of paper signed by civilians to tanks and Castro-length speeches. AND Gen. Bonespurs has mentioned more than once that maybe he won't go when his term is up. But keep reading the folks who see nothing wrong because maybe he is kidding.
As for Putin, the capo de tutti of the "Russian Mafia," looking deep into his Orthodox, albeit larcenous, heart and coming up St. Basil, give me a bleeping break.
Not quite on topic. But here's Anne Applebaum on the Italian and Roman government.
ReplyDelete"All across Milan, condolences rain down upon the head of the traveler bound for Rome. One Milanesi friend showed me photographs, sent by his niece, of the garbage that hasn’t been cleared from the Roman streets. Another told me to watch out for the smell: “If you haven’t been there for a long time, prepare for a shock.” The expressions of concern are dispensed with just a touch of glee, for Rome, unlike Milan, is now ruled by a mayor from the Five Star Movement. This newish Italian political party was founded by a professional comedian who used to describe politicians as “parasites,” whose leaders rail against the “establishment” and whose electoral lists were filled with people who had never before run for office. Swept into power on a wave of anger, the Five Star Movement has now crashed against some immovable obstacles, one of which is the sanitation department of the city of Rome."
They seem to have a Mayor Daley conundrum!
Whole thing: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/when-populist-rhetoric-meets-italian-reality/2019/07/05/d00fdce0-9f2d-11e9-b27f-ed2942f73d70_story.html?utm_term=.c090511c287e
Jim, perhaps we shouldn't get too sanguine about the Russian attempts to interfere in our election (and in those of others, particularly in Europe). My Silicon Valley son is currently working on a project related to the disruptive bots planted by hostile powers- his group deals with Russia, but there are others working on China, and every other country trying to spread misinformation and rumors to influence voters.
ReplyDeleteI used to think the big problem was Facebook and other social media. Until my son sent me a list showing the top ten news outlets that pick up the planted information and spread it very, very widely - unsurprisingly, Fox News was very high on the list, along with Breitbart and multiple other "conservative" "news" sites.
Most Trump supporters watch Fox, and if they go online, read Breitbart. They tell researchers that this is where they get pretty much ALL of their information. One woman who was interviewed was shocked to learn that the Mueller report had NOT cleared Trump of obstruction of justice. She had only watched Fox and that is what they reported - the Mueller Report had totally, 100% exonerated Trump.
I think that Fox and the others do move the needle when it comes to voters, and they are spreading the lies fed to them by Russia and others. Trump essentially encouraged Putin to keep doing it when they met in Japan.
The NYTimes had an interesting article about someone using a google platform for social engineering. It's worth a read - pretty frightening to me.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/07/opinion/google-ads.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage
I think it's kind of funny that Trump is mad at Fox right now. I'm sure it's a temporary spat, and they'll kiss and make up well before anything like primaries occur. But one has to enjoy the moment while it lasts.
ReplyDeleteAbout the NYT link, that is pretty amazing. And yes, a bit frightening. The google platform could be used for something good, like deterring someone from suicide, or from joining ISIS. Or just the opposite.