To Margaret's post on Turkey about a week ago, I made a comment where I suggested she (or you) might want to read Orhan Pamuk and I recommended Istanbul (his autobiography) and an novel called Snow.
She responded:
Pamuk: his book about Istanbul is fascinating. Though he be a novelist, I find them a bit of a slog...Snow and Red being the ones I struggled with. It reminded me how important deep cultural references can look to outsiders. Ditto "The Time Regulation Machine" by Tanpinar (recommended by the very Western grandson). It's book marked at page 7. Maybe I should try again.
I would agree with her that his novels, at least are a slog. I went from Snow to The Black Book. I didn't want them to be a slog and in my case, I looked for reviews that might mention something about their slogginess. The thing about it is that they are very good prose, but in a way they also feel endless, but without any kind of page turning narrative to keep one on the edge of one's seat. (Shame on me).
And I found one interesting review (that I can't locate now to link to) that said that what looks to us like slogginess (sorry, I like this new word) is actually "Turkishness". The writer said that Turkish literature often has lots of side stories and digressions and that people like these. This tendency seems a bit strange to us. The most sloggy recent American novel that I can think of is David Foster Wallace's Infinite Jest, which was truly infinite, at least as far as I was concerned. And if I remember, it's infinitude was considered one of the strange things about it.
But our own literature used to be longer in the Turkish sense. Old novels that I was (at the time) forced to read in school like Tristam Shandy seemed to go on forever, because, it turned out, they did. Once someone gave me a copy of The Life and Opinions of Tomcat Murr by ETA Hoffman, written in the early 19th century, and I discovered this long book had been abridged in the edition I received because, explained the editor, modern audiences would no longer tolerate its length.
Now the late Ivan Illich suggested that the computer age would cause a revolution in reading similar to the revolution caused by the invention of movable type; similar in the sense that would create a radical change in the way people read. I have noticed that novels seem to be getting shorter. In a writing group I sometimes participate in, the younger members (and they are all younger members at this point) all want to write "flash fiction" or "flash poetry". In our public readings, we are asked to keep things to 800 words. I once wrote a detective story that was exactly 1,000 words (I called it The 1,000 Word Noir) and was told it was too long to present. I taught a course in sociology online a about a year ago and found that the students were confused and dismayed that I would write a thousand words or more in responses to their answers to my questions. I ask younger people what's going on, and I am usually told that we are now in a sort of "age of facts". I have been told that if one can't communicate the essence of the novel in a summary, no one is going to read it. Along with this, I have been quite surprised at how little my high school and college age kids have to read. And, how little they are willing to read. I try to explain to them that a summary of a book, especially a novel, does no more than spoil the book and that the meat is in the prose. But they don't believe it.
I throw all of this out there as simply an observation. People our age read differently than younger people in general. I blame fucking computers. (Sorry, but I feel very strongly about this). But I also think that it is part of the commodification of everything, including time and art. And I think we are poorer for it.
It is this cultural tendency more than any other that I can think of that makes me afraid for the future.
I think possibly young people (and some older ones) are more like to follow complex story lines with a well populated cast as movies or a series, rather than reading about them. I'm thinking about Game of Thrones, which played out over several years, and recently ended. I didn't watch it, too violent. My older son and daughter in law were fans, though they weren't happy with the ending.
ReplyDeleteKeep in mind, too, that Charles Dickens' complex stories and character list started out as serials.
More about that later. Now I have to get the place cleaned up because we're having company. If we weren't, I would turn a blind eye to the clutter.
I also thought of Katherine's point about Dickens and serials.
ReplyDeleteI recently re-read Lord of the Rings (sorry, Jean) and was impressed at how well-paced it is. It's obviously a very long story, but it moves along pretty briskly and doesn't dwell overlong on anything.
Reading a novel requires time and attentiveness. One of my observations of my contemporaries - and it certainly applies to me - is that our attention is diffuse. If I watch mainstream television, the kind with commercials, I watch 2-3 shows at a time; when a commercial break occurs in one program, I flip to the other. We are in baseball season now, and Chicago has two teams, and if they both are playing in the evening I switch back and forth between the two games in this way. That little button on the remote entitled "Back" or "Prev" is insidious. If the second show also is in a commercial break or if I missed significant portions of it, I'll simply rewind.
Even when I'm working, I'll be on a conference call and checking email simultaneously. It's not a good habit, but somehow I feel compelled to do it.
When it comes to reading, I read steadily but in short bursts. I am able to carve out 20-30 minutes in the morning, and the same in the evening, for reading. Not infrequently, I'll have two books going, non-fiction for the morning and fiction for the evening. It takes me quite a while to finish a book, and I give up on books that don't seem worth the investment. But if I look back on my previous year's reading, I'll have read 10-12 books, which makes me more well-read than most of the people I interact with each day (at least face-to-face). Perhaps that's damning with faint praise.
Jim, I'm glad I'm not the only one who reads like that.
DeleteRandom thoughts from 30 years as a college English teaching drudge:
ReplyDeleteI have had many students since 1983 (before the Internet) who weren't interested in reading. Possibly the majority. Some were outright hostile to it. Why were they even in college? Oh, right, to major in business. Many well-funded disciplines have long been indifferent to lit and liberal arts.
Computers and the Internet have made a much wider variety of literature available to students. Without it, preparing a unit in medieval drama would have been much more difficult. We used computers to find modern English renditions of plays, to find filmed performances on YouTube, and to look at medieval art depicting scenes.from the plays. (Let me bore you with my theory that medieval manuscripts are the grandaddies of graphic novels. Millennials can "read" Hieronymous Bosch the same way they "read" a splash page in The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. They get the Middle Ages big time.)
Computers have also transformed serious literary research in ways I appreciate every day. However, computer research education is woefully inadequate, and young people are sometimes frighteningly disinterested in learning this skill.
I would agree that reading on the computer is different from reading a book or Kindle. Kids (and older people) tend to skim computer info. This may make students antsy with a book.
I would also say that literary aesthetic and preferences change over time. I try not to make judgments about this.
It is pretty well established that there is a strong connection between children's reading habits and how early and often they were read to as children. Given the exhaustion and short attention span of young working parents, I expect many kids to have stunted skills, though the better public libraries are addressing this.
I had a Sociology professor who belonged to a certain "school" that claimed that a text had to be read multiple times in order for one to begin to really understand it. He himself was a specialist on Emile Durkheim and he probably read the man's main works five or ten times. He encouraged us to do the same and in some ways I think he had a point.
DeleteSo imagine my surprise when I found out the year after I left that he had gotten a contract from Apple to develop hypercard applications. Hypercard was a pre-internet application that allowed converting any large text into as series of (basically) flash cards. They system had a powerful search engine and its main selling point was that one no longer needed to read a book at all. Once could just search for important quotations using keywords.
It was rather like hearing that Mother Theresa had decided to open a fashion boutique in Paris.
There is way more money in "instructional design" than in teaching. The trend is for designers to dictate course design and pacing. There is less dialogue and engagement with teachers, who are seen largely as course monitors as more instruction goes online.
DeleteI find this trend far more concerning than the fact that kids aren't reading Humphrey Clinker.
Patrick, sounds like your Sociology professor was practicing Lectio Divina with his texts. Though not with the flash cards.
DeleteThis is not a good theme to greet me with as I get ready (as soon as I finish 462 pages of John and John Quincy Adams -- the antidote to "Hamilton," among other things) to embark on my annual summer Dickens. What you are saying just makes me feel older than my arthritis already made me feel.
ReplyDeleteSo many topics!!!
ReplyDeleteComputers: I am reading Jill Lepore, These Truths (789pp. plus 150 more of notes), which is living proof that whatever the impact of computers on fiction, its impact on non-fiction is an increase of length (cf. above TB, Hamilton...the Adamses, General Grant, etc.). Computers make it easy, not so much to write as to REwrite. In days of yore (typewriters) after a modest amount of penciled corrections, retyping was required to see what you had written. Computers: you can save all versions, rename the text 1,2,3,etc and go to it without have to retype the whole thing. How else would Chernow have ever written Hamilton, or Lepore, These Truths (which is not, by the way, what we learned in fourth grade).
Fiction: currently awful. Not reading any. My summers of reading Dickens or Austen appear to be over. As I've mentioned before, I've take to police stories set in the thirties, forties, fifties...down to 1989, when the cold war ended. These are police stories embedded in politics and war. Anthony Price, Phillip Kerr, Volker Kutscher...same agents, multiple novels. Certainly not as good as Dickens or Austen....They are page turners, just like Nancy Drew was, and the stories are far more complicated. Not recommending this, just confessing.
Foreign page turners. Why was One Hundred Years of Solitude (G.G. Marquez) so much easier to read than Snow (Pahmuk)? Not just easier, fascinating, not to be put down unless a child was sinking into the water.
"Fiction: currently awful. Not reading any." Same here. I'm currently reading two nonfiction, "Ghost Work: How to Stop Silicon Valley from Building a New Global Underclass" and "Bad Blood" by John Carreyrou, about the Theranos debacle. Bad Blood is moving right along, it's the train wreck you can't stop watching. Ghost Work is a slog, because I only understand part of what they're talking about; data as it applies to AI was never my field. But I'm trying to persevere with it, because I think it's important to know about what's happening. We're worried about the wrong things, Artificial Intelligence isn't going to eliminate work. But it has the potential to turn us into day laborers with no rights.
Delete"... not to be put down unless a child was sinking into the water."
ReplyDeleteGreat line, Peggy.
Jill Lepore has a newer book out, on patriotism -- not the flag in the lapel, hand in your pocket type -- and she did a big roundup on books on the space age in the New York Times book review a couple of weeks ago, suggesting she read more than the one required for review. Turning into a regular Andrew Greeley.
DeleteHer new book is teeny in comparison. Takes up one-tenth the shelf space according to Mr. Books at our locally owned store!
DeleteSome more bad novels: Sally Rooney, Conversations with Friends; Normal People...hermetically sealed lives bump into one another and pass in the night...Of course, I didn't finish either. Also hermetic Exit West....
DeleteNobody is a story teller anymore. Is that the problem?
I belong to an online book group whose members are fond of keeping all kinds of stats on their reading frequency. I usually ignore these threads, but I did get ensnared into tallying up my expected lifespan and reading rate, and realized with quite a sense of shock that I have time for only 360 more books. Oddly, this is the first time death has seemed utterly real to me: I read therefore I am, apparently.
ReplyDeleteI now feel the need to make those last 360 really count.
Do I read Dostoyevsky and Nabakov, who have hitherto failed to charm?
Should I re-read anything?
Should I indulge in popular genre fiction authors I have usually enjoyed (Stephen King) or stick with high-brow stuff?
What should I save for last, the book that, presumably, will be on my nightstand when the funeral home guys show up? Maybe The Loved One by Evelyn Waugh?
Should I document these books, write up little squibs about them? If so, what for? Or just savor them in the moment and move on?
And what is the point of reading as the shadows fall? Is the reason for reading different now than it was before I realized my reading list had become so finite?
Of course, it has not escaped my notice that making a good reading list, not getting right with God and the Church--or even being nicer to people--was my first concern as I contemplated my demise. Hmmm.
Interesting food for thought.
Interesting concept, a book bucket list. 360 is a lot. The way I've been going lately, if you count the books I actually read all the way through, that's about 30 years worth. I think that would probably see me out. I used to be a lot less picky, I finished everything I started, even if I thought it was lousy. I would read at least a couple a week. Then something changed. I no longer have the band width for books I don't enjoy, at least somewhat. I hate to admit that messing around on the internet has consumed part of the band width that used to be spent on books.
ReplyDeleteI still complete books I dislike of only to warn my book club away from them with specifics. But having a finite number of books makes me want to rethink that practice. 360 sounds like a lot, but the whole idea that there is a finite number--of course there always was--changes my perspective on reading.
DeleteJean: On the one hand, 360 is a lot of books. On the second hand, how good is your math...honestly?
ReplyDeleteThe question is how much of my remaining lifespan will I be in any shape to read? Most likely complication is stroke and brain bleed. I have told Raber in that case to put Henry James on a continuous audio loop. The late great Nicholas Clifford recorded much of James for LibriVox.com He lives on in this wonderful gift. His "Aspern Papers" is brilliant!
DeleteDennis O'Brien has a wonderful tribute to Nicholas in the current issue.
Deletehttps://www.commonwealmagazine.org/north-star
Yes, I saw that. Very nice!
DeleteJean, Do the Dostoyevsky. I re-did and discovered I like The Idiot, too, which I didn't the first time. Dorothy Day liked him. But Catholics of a certain type always do. From my limited experience, skip Nabakov and read Hans Fallada.
ReplyDeleteRaber has been pushing Dostoyevsky, specifically Crime and Punishment, at me for decades. Maybe I'll save Fallada's "Every Man Dies Alone" for the end. :-)
DeleteI estimate (not sure) that I can read fiction at around 20 pages/ hour. If I read for four hours a day, 365 days a year for ten years, and an average book length is 300 pages, I can knock off almost a thousand fiction books. I better get cracking. Problem is, I have understanding (with the math) general relativity on my bucket list. That may subtract a few hundred books right there.
ReplyDeleteA noble enterprise. I keep thinking I should refresh my Anglo-Saxon.
DeleteI read all the GofT books then in print before it hit the telly. There are supposedly more to come but George RR Martin has become a multimillionaire from the success of the HBO series, so why bother? Reading the series (each of the volumes wad over 1000 pages) teaches one patience and a constant reference to the cast of families and the characters therein) made it easier to follow the dumbed-down version that most people experienced. I have loved to read ever since "sister school" (Thank you, Sinsinawa Dominicans) and devote at least one hour each evening to enjoying at least one, usually two, novels at a time. Nothing very current, alas. Just finished "The Antagonists," the basis for the old movie entitled "Masada," written by Ernest K. Gann, ca 1965.
ReplyDeleteMargaret: Gann is an EXCELLENT story teller.
DeleteWas that the basis for the miniseries about Masada with Peter O'Toole? We saw that one, thought it was good.
DeleteKatherine: yes.
DeleteSome of you might be interested in this article by Kris Gage, which I ran across today. It is entitled "Eight Things I Learned Reading 50 Books a Year for 7 Years". Not sure I agree totally with all 8 points, but it's food for thought.
ReplyDeleteI've read more than 60 books a year (more than 100 in the years when I was a book editor) for 62 years, and I disagree with quite a bit. Mostly, her notion that autobiography gets you closer to the person than biography. There is more fiction in most autobiographies than in biographies, although with the latter you always have to watch out that you may be getting more of the biographer than of the subject.
DeleteTom, I agree with you about autobiographies, people tend not to tell the "truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" about themselves. I tend to like memoirs better than autobiographies. Not that they're more likely to be truthful, just that they're more likely to be interesting.
DeleteOff the subject, but you'll love this one, Tom. It was said by Mark Shea on Facebook: "I want to start minting Dunning-Krugerrands to hand out to dumb people who don't know they're dumb..."
DeleteThere is a whole wing of psycho-literary study devoted to biography, hagiography, memory, and narrative. The human need to make meaning out of life generally (and out of a particular life) seems to be pretty powerful. We don't like the idea that life doesn't add up to a lesson of some kind or fit some paradigm. Our memories may be selective in this way, to protect us from the randomness of life.
DeleteAnd, yes, biography is always the story of two people, Boswell and Johnson, Chesterton and Blake, McCullough and Truman, St. John and Jesus.
I can't imagine how much dumber I'd be today if I thought I was smart.
DeleteThere's vincible ignorance, and invincible ignorance.
DeleteKatherine, Please let me know if Mark Shea markets the Dunning-Krugerrands. There are a whole lotta political rallies where I'd like to pass some out.
DeleteNB: Today's NYT book review: Top Fifty Memoirs (or so they think!). How many has anyone read...
ReplyDeletehttps://nyti.ms/2RZTOIP
I counted six that I had read, before the paywall went up. Saw some that I had no desire to read, such as Gone Girl, and Eat Pray Love.
DeletePaywall intervened, alas. I read Maxine Hong Kingston, but that was all I could see before the pop-up covered it all up.
DeleteTry this link. It doesn't have the text of the NYT link, but does list the books:
Delete“The Girl on the Train,” by Paula Hawkins (2015)
“Crazy Rich Asians,” by Kevin Kwan (2013)
“Gone Girl,” by Gillian Flynn (2012)
“The Passage,” by Justin Cronin (2010)
“Pride and Prejudice and Zombies,” By Jane Austen and Seth Grahame-Smith (2009)
“Eat, Pray, Love,” by Elizabeth Gilbert (2006)
“Something Borrowed,” by Emily Giffin (2004)
“The Lovely Bones,” by Alice Sebold (2002)
“Seabiscuit,” by Laura Hillenbrand (2001)
“Bridget Jones’s Diary,” by Helen Fielding (1998)
“Into Thin Air,” by Jon Krakauer (1997)
“Primary Colors,” by Anonymous (1996)
“Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil,” by John Berendt (1994)
“Like Water for Chocolate,” by Laura Esquivel (1993)
“Waiting to Exhale,” Terry McMillan (1992)
“American Psycho,” by Bret Easton Ellis (1991)
“The Joy Luck Club,” by Amy Tan (1989)
“The Name of the Rose,” by Umberto Eco (1983)
“Love Story,” by Erich Segal (1970)
Looks like I cut off "The Andromeda Strain" by Michael Crichton. Which was a good one. I'm not seeing Maxine Hong Kingston though.
DeleteOops, my bad. I'm copying a different list from NYT, which also came up today. Mine was "The 'It' Books of Summer" for the last 50 years. 20 titles were given, some of the years didn't have one.
DeleteSorry about that. Can't see that anyone else has published the 50 memoir list yet.
DeleteAmong the fifty, I've read:
The Woman Warrior...Hong Kingston
The Liars' Club...Karr
Giving Up the Ghost...Mantel
Dreams from My Father...Obama
A Tale of Love and Darkness...Oz
This Boy's Life...Wolff
Country Girl...O'Brien
Negroland....Jefferson
Growing Up...Baker
Between the World and Me...Coates
The Year of Magical Thinking...Didion
Barbarian Days...Finnegan
Autobiography of a Face...Grealy
The Memory Chalet....Judt
H Is for Hawk...Macdonald
The Color of Water...McBride
Angela's Ashes...McCourt
I don't want to poo-poo the NYTimes BReditors...but the others are probably not worth it! IMHO....
But of course I haven't read them!
DeleteIs Joan Didion's worth a look-see for someone who can't stand Joan Didion?
DeleteColor of Water has been on my list for a long time.
Woman Warrior, Kingston
Conundrum, Morris
Persepolis, Satrap
Growing Up, Baker
Palimpsest, Vidal
I'm not a Dideon fan myself. For what happens when a husband drops dead at the dinner table, it's worth a look... Try the library first.
DeleteColor of Water...very engaging and touching. McBride is himself pretty engaging...appeared at some Fordham English Department do and was himself engaging and touching.
Delete