Mullally's husband is Irish, raised Catholic, now Anglican. She arranged for Adoration of the Eucharist as Bishop of London, a practice banned in the C of E for many centuries, and one I have never seen in an Episcopal church. (I still find it weird, though I understand that many Catholics like Katherine find it meaningful.)
The ABC's have generally stuck to broad church customs, so it will be interesting to see if Mullally leans spiky or Anglo-Catholic.
Important to remember that the ABC is not like the pope. The ABCs facilitate communication across the Anglican communion and preside at Lambeth. They have no authority to make unilateral decisions affecting other national churches within the communion.
I expect Mullally's elevation will be a minor blip on the screen for American Catholics, who outnumber Episcopalians by about 50 to 1.
Worldwide, the Anglican communion is the third largest, so on the global stage, still a big enough influence for Rome to pay attention to.
Two of ECUSA's presiding bishops have been women, and 40 percent of the clergy are female. So Mullally is not a huge deal in the US.
Black American Catholics outnumber Episcopalians while they remain invisible on the national scene even though Gregory became Cardinal Archbishop of D.C.
Anglo-Catholics have not had that much difficulty integrating women clergy. Saint Thomas in New York whose liturgy is very much like our Pre-Vatican II liturgy except mostly in English has integrated women into their ministry. Their current rector from England is married to a woman who is a priest. I suspect lovers of royal ceremony tend to be Anglo-Catholic, and of course the Queen was head of the Church.
Mullally as Bishop of London was very visible. She will be merely moving to another location in London. A lot of the ceremonies at Canterbury were presided over by the bishop of Dover who is kind of like an auxiliary to Canterbury. She is Black.
When Africans made pilgrimage to Canterbury, Dean Robert's partner disappeared. I suspect that was also true of the Bishop of Dover. The current Dean is also gay, so Africans might find Canterbury uncomfortable.
Rome has treated the male Archbishops of Canterbury with honor even though it does not recognize their ordinations as valid. The fact of a woman Archbishop should make no difference.
This will be interesting. Benedict worked really, really hard to attract Anglicans who opposed women’s ordination, and especially female bishops. So he started the Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham to draw them into the RC fold, allowing them to keep their liturgy and the priests to be married. But the married priests would not be eligible to become bishops unless their wives died ( like the Orthodox) and they did not want to remarry . He pulled in about 1500 total I think the first year, and a trickle since then. To mollify the anti- woman priest crowd the C of E created “flying” bishops who had oversight of the parishes that did not want to join the papists but also didn’t want women priests. They are called “flying” bishops because the parishes in their domain are widely separated geographically, requiring longer distances to visit them. Benedict also created an Ordinariate in the US for Episcopalians who didn’t want women priests - about 11,000 here and in Canada - about the same as the two largest regular parishes combined in the Archdiocese of Washington DC.
The Bishop of the Episcopal diocese of Washington DC is a woman, Mariann Budde. I’ve met her several times, and we “bonded” over our mutual admiration of Sr. Joan Chittister, She invited Sr Joan to the Washington National Cathedral to speak several times and Sr Joan also was the homilist there at least once. I went downtown for that liturgy. After the liturgy had ended the congregation was invited to ask questions. It was clear that many there in that fully packed Cathedral were Catholic. One woman asked the question all were thinking - why do we Catholics have to go to mass at an Episcopal church to hear a woman give the homily?
Bishop Mariann made national news when she explained the gospel message to Trump during the ceremony (not a liturgy) at the Cathedral last January after he was inaugurated. He responded with his usual demeaning insults. She does not back down - for example, look up her statement calling out trump in no uncertain terms after he illegally seized her EC parish, kicking out the priests there, ( StJohns) for his photo op with the upside down Bible during the Black Lives Matter protest. She does not kowtow to trump or any other power brokers in DC - unlike some notable RC bishops like Dolan and Barron. Like Jesus, she’s not afraid to speak truth to power. She actually teaches Catholic Social Justice doctrines (she doesn’t call them that - she calls them the gospels), seldom mentioned by Catholic bishops and priests.
I am wondering where Vance goes to mass. Nothing about that ever in the local news, unlike Biden who often went to St Matthew’s Cathedral in DC or to a parish near his home in Delaware. . Perhaps some MAGA priest goes to his house to say mass. The uber right wing Catholics on the SC go to a parish in Virginia called St Catherine of Siena with a strong Opus Dei presence. Not sure where Amy Coney Barrett goes to church. Gorsuch was Catholic but converted to Anglican after his time at Oxford where he met his wife. I’m not sure where they go to church either as no EC churches in our area ( he lives in the same town we live in) are not right wing. Before he came to DC (where he went to high school at Georgetown Prep, as did Kavanaugh) his family attended a EC parish in Boulder Colorado. Maybe downtown to the Anglo Catholic Anglican Church. Probably not the Washington National Cathedral. Kavanaugh goes to Blessed Sacrament, the longtime favorite RC parish of many DC power people. That’s also Dionne’s parish. Way back, the Kennedys went to Holy Trinity, the Jesuit parish at Georgetown University, so other power Catholics also went there then.
Just amazing how anti- Christian our country is, according to MAGA, and how anti- Catholic according to MAGA Catholics. Christians are the vast majority of Congress, with many Catholics in Congress, in the West Wing, and on the SC. And yet they cry ” we are being persecuted “.
Correction - No right- wing EC parishes anywhere near our community. They aren’t overtly political, just teaching the gospels( social justice), have women priests, and some with gay priests who are married. Not sure Gorsuch could handle that, but maybe he’s less hostile personally to LGBTQ+ than MAGA in general.
I think it was private instruction - like thrice married Newt Gingrich who was personally received into the church to join his long- time mistress (and third wife, in the choir of the National Shrine) by Cardinal Wuerl, of not so fond memory. His private prep was done by the rector of the National Shrine, a controversial Monsignor who has been investigated two or three times on charges of sexual impropriety with male students at Catholic University. So far he’s been cleared of these charges.
According to Google, Vance had private instruction by a Dominican priest in Ohio.
I almost forgot - the Dominicans have a big presence in DC because of their House of Studies here. Their seminarians take a lot of courses at CU also. Maybe Vance goes to the Dominican seminary for mass or maybe one of the Dominicans goes to him. Most likely the latter. According to google, he met up with some Dominicans at Yale and that was when he first became interested in Catholicism. He considers himself to be an intellectual, and it’s very likely that evangelical Protestantism didn’t measure up in that area, whereas the Dominicans have a reputation as intellectuals. Yet his understanding of the gospels falls very short.
Interesting. It shouldn't make any difference to Catholics. The Anglicans are their own thing, have been for hundreds of years. There were some Anglican or Episcopal clergy, male of course, who transferred into the RC and received Catholic holy orders. They had objections to the ordination of women, among other things. Not sure if they were all part of the Anglican Ordinariate? I expect there may be some others who want to transfer now. But I don't think Pope Leo is going to be as receptive to that as some of his predecessors. He has spoken out about polarization in the church a lot. And these converts have trended very right wing.
I made my comment before I read Anne's @ 12:00 pm. She goes into more detail about the Ordinariate. I remember Bishop Mariann Budde calling out Trump. He had it coming in spades, and has been so much worse lately.
H will probably leave instructions that his state funeral NOT be held at the Washington National Cathedral as so many have been. Of course, he’s immortal, so it probably won’t come up.
Francis or Benedict tried to entice Anglicans by saying that they could keep their liturgies. It's a tone-deaf offer, since the differences between RCC and Anglican Communion are not liturgical but doctrinal, with the papacy being the biggest sticking point.
The papacy is the big sticking point with trying to reconnect with the Orthodox. The papacy AND women’s ordination are both sticking points between Rome and the Anglicans.
Maybe instead of focusing on organisational unity (everyone being under the same leadership) we should focus on the unity we do have in common, which is quite a bit. The Orthodox, the Anglicans and Episcopalians, and the Lutherans share with us the Nicene Creed (catholic with a small c). Also Baptism and a form of the Eucharist (especially the Orthodox) and a liturgical form of worship. Is it necessary that we all be under one roof, so to speak? We are farther away from the Evangelicals and some of the other Protestants. But we already do have a degree of unity with one another. We confess the same Lord.
I’m not a theologian nor a liturgist, so not hung up on doctrine, or liturgy, especially the GIRM. The ecclesiastical types are hung up on every little difference. Plus Rome and the Orthodox ban other Christians from receiving communion. The Anglicans, Episcopalians and Lutherans have an open table.
Katherine, I have always thought of Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, and Orthodox as people of the Eucharist--where Communion is a weekly sacrament of the Real Presence. Presbyterians and Methodists also believe in the Real Presence, though Communion is not always offered weekly.
Episcopalians in the 1980s and '90s were very concerned about the rise of evangelical and fundamentalist mega-churches, particulary through the TV preachers. The Episcopal priests in my parishes accurately predicted and warned about the Culture Wars that would lead to legislative activism by social conservatives. There was renewed emphasis on and catechesis about the importance of Communion.
Catholics at the time ignored the rise of evangelicalism with the bemused contempt that they have always had for "Protestants."
As the Church loses adherents, perhaps it might pay more attention to the concerns of other people of the Eucharist and what those denominations outside the RCC are trying to preserve.
"Lambeth Palace is the London home of the Archbishop of Canterbury, his family and two religious communities. It is the centre of his ministry, worship and hospitality.
As a working palace and a family home, Lambeth Palace is not open to the public on a daily basis. The Palace is currently undergoing an extensive programme of refurbishment. As such the Palace is currently closed for Tours. "
Lambeth Palace is somewhat like the Vatican in that it takes care of relationships with bishops around the world, but it only has any real influence over those in England, and that largely through its relationship with the government.
Canterbury Cathedral is more like the Saint John Lateran the actual Cathedral of the Bishop of Rome than like Saint Peters a place where the Bishop of Rome exercises his ministry.
Betty and I followed Dean Roberts and Canterbury Cathedral for three or four years (morning prayer daily and evening prayer often). Justin showed up rarely even after Covid had declined. Deans of Cathedrals play unusually large roles in the Anglican tradition. The liturgical life of the Cathedrals tends to center around them largely because of the importance of morning and evening prayer and their associated choristers in the Anglican tradition. They took over the ancient role of monks.
Thanks for that info on Lambeth. I was not aware that it was where the ABC hung out most of the time. Easier for her to hobnob with the royals to whom she is adviser and confessor. Lots of speculation about William's discomfort with inheriting the headship of the Church of England. He seems to want to ditch the role, but it requires an act of Parliament.
I looked up William and C of E. Apparently the bureaucratic steps needed to release him from his Royal obligation is so complicated that it is unlikely to happen. If he really doesn’t want to do it he would have to pass the kingship to someone else who would do it - his eldest child?
He is signaling that he wants to strip down the monarchy, maybe like Queen Margarethe did in Denmark. If that's the overall direction he wants to go, he could look for ways to whittle down his C of E involvement short of parliamentary disestablishment. Either way, it would affect only the C of E, and not the Anglican communion overall. We fought a war so we were not saddled with a monarchy and all their claptrap, Trump and the Tech Bros notwithstanding ...
I don't know. Like I said, it's an English quirk that Episcopalians don't have to deal with and does not affect the worldwide communion.
A couple of the Stuart kings converted to Catholicism, but secretly so as not to mess up their succession. Charles got his head chopped off (but not strictly for turning Catholic; he was a tyrant). James didn't acknowledge his conversion until he was on his deathbed.
The Stuart propensity to flirt with Catholicism worried parliament. The upshot was that Mary (a Stuart daughter) and her reliably Protestant Dutch husband, William of Orange, were brought over to reign jointly and the Catholic Stuarts exiled. Hence a couple generations of Stuart pretenders.
Off topic: apropos of Jim's last homily on God and Mammon and Jack's text analysis, Pope Leo wove several threads about poverty, service, and St Francis together yesterday: https://www.ncronline.org/vatican/vatican-news/one-cant-serve-god-and-money-pope-says-day-he-signs-text-poverty
Thanks, Jean for this head's up. I think his exhortation may be an important one especially if he talks about wealth as well as poverty. Of course, that might be very difficult to do and also keep his goal of bringing unity to the Church, especially here in America.
Anything to do with preferential option for the poor isn’t even likely to play well with white American Catholics in the pews. So nothing will be said in most majority white parishes.
I don't think it plays well in the US as a whole. We live in a nation where poverty is shameful and faith is transactional.
Spent time last week at brother-in-law's funeral with a big contingent of Amish in-laws. Now that I'm old and poor, I see a good deal of grace in their anti-materialism, however outlandish I find their theology.
I had a lovely time talking about felted slipper patterns, tomato varietals, and laughing about how we're all running on black coffee since we turned 60 and our husbands can't remember where anything is. Certainly a good reminder of the importance of offering each other time and attention over money and stuff.
Since Uncle A and Aunt E died, the Amish cousins seem a lot more laid back. He was a bishop in their ordnung and she was a nark, and everybody was afraid of crossing them and getting shunned and what-not.
The simplicity is attractive, but, as you note, the theology and other aspects are not.
Simplicity and renunciation of wealth might come across as a hypocritical message from the church that is essentially the most imperial organization left in the world, with lavish displays of wealth, from over the top silk and lace vestments, ermine capes, and cappae magnae borne by courtiers, to the papal finery and symbolism to the “ decor” - gold, precious jewels, etc- in the Vatican and cathedrals all over the world. A far cry from the simplicity of clothing and lifestyle of Jesus of Nazareth.
Yeah, I'm not trying to promote the Amish. Just saying that I appreciate the trouble they went to to show up for a grieving family member and to be cheerful for a change.
Trying to accept what people have to give and leave the rest on the table, like they tell you in AlAnon, but that my inner critic perfectionist control freak often doesn't.
The RCC is steeped in medieval pageantry that has historical significance and symbolism. It probably doesn't translate very well now, and the hierarchy might want to consider the message some of that stuff sends.
I do appreciate that the Church preserves its art and makes it available to people.
Yes, the art should be preserved. The Roman Catholic Church may have the most extensive art collection in the world if you count art in every Cathedral, convent, the Vatican and even many regular churches.
Was Raber’s brother a member of an Amish community or are they more distant relatives?
Raber's dad was Amish. He left at 16. There was a big flap when he wanted to come back for a visit with his English wife and kids. Wife and kids were fine, but Dad was shunned by eldest brother, Uncle A, and his parents. His sisters refused to shun. Grandma and Grandpa then relented and would visit, but would not eat with Dad.
It's the sisters' kids who have been the ones to come to family things most frequently.
If the RCC changes its message to simplicity from royal displays of wealth, it could start by declaring that cardinals are not “princes” of the church but just priests. Then move on to getting rid of the silk and ermine and lace and gold gilt.
Yes, Anne. If they want traditional outfits, monks’ robes would do fine. Or simple secular priests’ clothes. The fancy stuff is the RC equivalent of the Pomp of the British royalty, Good tourist stuff but not much else.
Not suprising that our group is not a huge fan of ermine and lace, but just want to note the church is a big tent, and there are people who love that stuff.
They can skip the ermine, I never saw that anyway. But I don't have a problem with a little bit of fancy if it's not excessive. I know Pope Leo goes in a little more for the vestments than Pope Francis did, and that's okay.
Yeah, the local priest is very proud of his specially made vestments that he had made in Poland. Fine by me. The ermine and jewels come from a time when the Church used sumptuary conventions to illustrate that its power trumped that of kings and emperors. Now I think it comes off as a drag show to people outside the Church. But it's up to the Vatican to wrestle with that irony.
My objection to the silk and lace is the symbolism. The luxurious finery does not recall Jesus of Nazareth, and seems almost a mockery of his teachings about wealth. These symbols are those of human greed - love of wealth and power, the anti- thesis of Jesus’s teachings. “People who love that stuff” can find plenty of it in the English monarchy, and now in the gilded White House that will soon be desecrated with a “ballroom” that will emulate Versailles.
Maybe the church needs a Franciscan in the Vatican next. A true reformer.
"My objection to the silk and lace is the symbolism. "
Admittedly, I come at this from a funny angle. I'm a lover of classical music. There was a time, perhaps within the living memory of some of us, when supporting the local symphony orchestra or opera company was considered a sort of civic obligation, perhaps even extending to the notion of noblesse oblige, on the part of the wealthy in a community. In Chicago, the industrial and meat-packing barons kept those institutions afloat. And so they would attend the concerts in fine evening wear, not excluding silk hats on the part of the men, and their wives bejewelled. A sociologist might say it was a public venue where the class distinctions were reinforced.
But of course the tuxedos and silk hats are thing of the past. The wealthy still spend ridiculous amounts of money on clothing, but it is in pursuit of the studiously casual. The great-granddaughter of the former opera-gallery doyenne appears at concert events (and it's more likely to be a Taylor Swift concert than the Philharmonic) in a denim jacket - albeit one that costs thousands of dollars.
Anyway, where I'm going with this: the silk and lace of cardinals and popes - does it really associate them with the elite these days? I'm not sure it symbolizes much of anything beyond an attachment to a church that doesn't exist anymore.
Does any parish buy the fancy vestments? Mostly they just have them. Our parish has one chasuble that is literally a hundred years old. It is a brocade "fiddle-back" with a picture of the Sacred Heart on it. They get it out for the feast of the Sacred Heart. Mostly we use the simpler ones. But we can bring out the few more elaborate ones for a special occasion. Kind of like getting out the good china for Thanksgiving dinner.
There are some inexpensive vestments at the local church, but the current priest has his own. Making vestments is a point of pride for wealthy church ladies with a flair for needlework in ECUSA parishes. Not sure if that's a thing in RC parishes.
The EC/Anglican hierarchy have more simple garb than the RCs. . Our very middle class ECUSA parish didn’t have a single needlework expert in the entire congregation as far as I know. Not many rich folks - mostly middle class with college degree requiring jobs. The congregation was a mix - far more converts than cradle Episcopalians ( including the rector and associate rector), and most of the converts were former RC.
Jim, the problem is that the over the top finery in Rome, and the preferred costumes of some Cardinals and bishops ( and I guess some parish priests?) , really is more British royals than Jesus of Nazareth. The message is all wrong. And I’m not so sure that today’s robber baron rich folk have really given up their fancy clothes when they go to their various charity balls and cultural gatherings. In DC, evening gowns can’t be seen twice (at least not on the same woman) so there are “resale” shops that specialize in designer gowns that have only been worn once. Some Washington power women who aren’t yet multi millionaires actually rent their designer gowns from discreet specialty shops. The local city magazines have photos every month of the elite in their finest making the rounds of balls and other social events. . Washingtonian magazine certainly does. I’m guessing Chicago has a similar glossy magazine that reports on the local society scene with lots of photos. Most major US cities have these magazines. If all else fails, go to a high end women’s hair styling salon and page through a copy of Town and Country! You will see plenty of $3000 denim jackets but you will also see plenty of multi, multi thousand $ gowns.
Our parish has bought a few vestments, primarily to allow multiple clergy to wear matching vestments on those occasions when that seems desirable. They're nice enough but not super-fancy. In addition, the Archdiocese purchases a white stole with the archdiocesan coat of arms for each of the deacons. That is primarily for diocesan events where several or many deacons might vestments. But by and large, clergy around here buy their own vestments (or receive them as gifts). Mine are more practical than fancy. But some guys, especially some priests, have very nice, very expensive vestments. I think they are "clothes horses".
"Our very middle class ECUSA parish didn’t have a single needlework expert in the entire congregation as far as I know."
Yah, my experience with ECUSA church ladies was 40 yrs ago. Many more needleworkers with time on their hands then for the Altar Society.
Making needlepoint cushions for the communion rail and embroidering altar cloths and funeral palls was another project for the needleworkers. I have the plain linen pall we used for my mom's ashes urn and thought about embroidering it for The Boy to use for Raber and me when the time comes.
I wish Archbishop Mullaly well. She seems like an interesting and effective person. I hope her appointment doesn't create controversy within the Anglican Communion.
I don't know why it should cause more controversy, since the Anglican Communion already has several woman bishops? If they don't object to women being priests, or women bishops, but object to one being in a leadership position like the Archbishop of Canterbury, that says something about the ones doing the objecting. I had always thought well of Abp.Justin Welby but apparently there were problems with a cover up of improprieties (not his, but someone under his supervision). Sigh. At least we're not the only ones who have had those scandals.
It seems all religious groups have those scandals. But Welby resigned. Catholic bishops don’t. As Archbishop of Canterbury he was also head of the global Anglican communion. You will never hear of a pope resigning because of covering up,Catholic abuse.
If us weren’t for the “ anti- catholic “ secular press American Catholics might never have become aware of the abuse of thousands of kids by prin our country.
Not to worry: our great President Trump will illegally and unConstitutionally send National Guard troops to protect us from his own ICE agents rappelling in full body armor through our living room windows.
From what I understand, the Amish make deliberated decisions about what technologies they will accept in their community. I like that a lot. Maybe if the larger culture thought about things like this, we might have avoided things like, let’s say, leaded gasoline?
I think my dad had a little bit of an Amish way of thinking. His attitude toward technology was that it was on a need to use, or need to know, basis. He eventually did get a cell phone, but only after he determined that he might need one if his pickup quit him out in the middle of nowhere (with a lot of encouragement by my brother).
Mullally's husband is Irish, raised Catholic, now Anglican. She arranged for Adoration of the Eucharist as Bishop of London, a practice banned in the C of E for many centuries, and one I have never seen in an Episcopal church. (I still find it weird, though I understand that many Catholics like Katherine find it meaningful.)
ReplyDeleteThe ABC's have generally stuck to broad church customs, so it will be interesting to see if Mullally leans spiky or Anglo-Catholic.
Important to remember that the ABC is not like the pope. The ABCs facilitate communication across the Anglican communion and preside at Lambeth. They have no authority to make unilateral decisions affecting other national churches within the communion.
I expect Mullally's elevation will be a minor blip on the screen for American Catholics, who outnumber Episcopalians by about 50 to 1.
Worldwide, the Anglican communion is the third largest, so on the global stage, still a big enough influence for Rome to pay attention to.
Two of ECUSA's presiding bishops have been women, and 40 percent of the clergy are female. So Mullally is not a huge deal in the US.
Black American Catholics outnumber Episcopalians while they remain invisible on the national scene even though Gregory became Cardinal Archbishop of D.C.
DeleteAnglo-Catholics have not had that much difficulty integrating women clergy. Saint Thomas in New York whose liturgy is very much like our Pre-Vatican II liturgy except mostly in English has integrated women into their ministry. Their current rector from England is married to a woman who is a priest. I suspect lovers of royal ceremony tend to be Anglo-Catholic, and of course the Queen was head of the Church.
Mullally as Bishop of London was very visible. She will be merely moving to another location in London. A lot of the ceremonies at Canterbury were presided over by the bishop of Dover who is kind of like an auxiliary to Canterbury. She is Black.
When Africans made pilgrimage to Canterbury, Dean Robert's partner disappeared. I suspect that was also true of the Bishop of Dover. The current Dean is also gay, so Africans might find Canterbury uncomfortable.
Rome has treated the male Archbishops of Canterbury with honor even though it does not recognize their ordinations as valid. The fact of a woman Archbishop should make no difference.
"Mullally as Bishop of London was very visible. She will be merely moving to another location in London."
DeleteNot sure what this means. Canterbury is not in London.
Prince William does not want.to be head of the C of E. Will be interesting to see if that changes.
DeleteThis will be interesting. Benedict worked really, really hard to attract Anglicans who opposed women’s ordination, and especially female bishops. So he started the Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham to draw them into the RC fold, allowing them to keep their liturgy and the priests to be married. But the married priests would not be eligible to become bishops unless their wives died ( like the Orthodox) and they did not want to remarry . He pulled in about 1500 total I think the first year, and a trickle since then. To mollify the anti- woman priest crowd the C of E created “flying” bishops who had oversight of the parishes that did not want to join the papists but also didn’t want women priests. They are called “flying” bishops because the parishes in their domain are widely separated geographically, requiring longer distances to visit them. Benedict also created an Ordinariate in the US for Episcopalians who didn’t want women priests - about 11,000 here and in Canada - about the same as the two largest regular parishes combined in the Archdiocese of Washington DC.
DeleteThe Bishop of the Episcopal diocese of Washington DC is a woman, Mariann Budde. I’ve met her several times, and we “bonded” over our mutual admiration of Sr. Joan Chittister,
She invited Sr Joan to the Washington National Cathedral to speak several times and Sr Joan also was the homilist there at least once. I went downtown for that liturgy. After the liturgy had ended the congregation was invited to ask questions. It was clear that many there in that fully packed Cathedral were Catholic. One woman asked the question all were thinking - why do we Catholics have to go to mass at an Episcopal church to hear a woman give the homily?
Bishop Mariann made national news when she explained the gospel message to Trump during the ceremony (not a liturgy) at the Cathedral last January after he was inaugurated. He responded with his usual demeaning insults. She does not back down - for example, look up her statement calling out trump in no uncertain terms after he illegally seized her EC parish, kicking out the priests there, ( StJohns) for his photo op with the upside down Bible during the Black Lives Matter protest. She does not kowtow to trump or any other power brokers in DC - unlike some notable RC bishops like Dolan and Barron. Like Jesus, she’s not afraid to speak truth to power. She actually teaches Catholic Social Justice doctrines (she doesn’t call them that - she calls them the gospels), seldom mentioned by Catholic bishops and priests.
I am wondering where Vance goes to mass. Nothing about that ever in the local news, unlike Biden who often went to St Matthew’s Cathedral in DC or to a parish near his home in Delaware. . Perhaps some MAGA priest goes to his house to say mass. The uber right wing Catholics on the SC go to a parish in Virginia called St Catherine of Siena with a strong Opus Dei presence. Not sure where Amy Coney Barrett goes to church. Gorsuch was Catholic but converted to Anglican after his time at Oxford where he met his wife. I’m not sure where they go to church either as no EC churches in our area ( he lives in the same town we live in) are not right wing. Before he came to DC (where he went to high school at Georgetown Prep, as did Kavanaugh) his family attended a EC parish in Boulder Colorado. Maybe downtown to the Anglo Catholic Anglican Church. Probably not the Washington National Cathedral. Kavanaugh goes to Blessed Sacrament, the longtime favorite RC parish of many DC power people. That’s also Dionne’s parish. Way back, the Kennedys went to Holy Trinity, the Jesuit parish at Georgetown University, so other power Catholics also went there then.
Just amazing how anti- Christian our country is, according to MAGA, and how anti- Catholic according to MAGA Catholics. Christians are the vast majority of Congress, with many Catholics in Congress, in the West Wing, and on the SC. And yet they cry ” we are being persecuted “.
Correction - No right- wing EC parishes anywhere near our community. They aren’t overtly political, just teaching the gospels( social justice), have women priests, and some with gay priests who are married. Not sure Gorsuch could handle that, but maybe he’s less hostile personally to LGBTQ+ than MAGA in general.
DeleteI've never heard that Vance ever did formal OCIA. My guess is he had private instructions with a sympathetic priest, or maybe something online.
DeleteI think it was private instruction - like thrice married Newt Gingrich who was personally received into the church to join his long- time mistress (and third wife, in the choir of the National Shrine) by Cardinal Wuerl, of not so fond memory. His private prep was done by the rector of the National Shrine, a controversial Monsignor who has been investigated two or three times on charges of sexual impropriety with male students at Catholic University. So far he’s been cleared of these charges.
DeleteAccording to Google, Vance had private instruction by a Dominican priest in Ohio.
I almost forgot - the Dominicans have a big presence in DC because of their House of Studies here. Their seminarians take a lot of courses at CU also. Maybe Vance goes to the Dominican seminary for mass or maybe one of the Dominicans goes to him. Most likely the latter. According to google, he met up with some Dominicans at Yale and that was when he first became interested in Catholicism. He considers himself to be an intellectual, and it’s very likely that evangelical Protestantism didn’t measure up in that area, whereas the Dominicans have a reputation as intellectuals. Yet his understanding of the gospels falls very short.
DeleteWomen can be deacons, priests, bishops, cardinals, popes. Unless, of course, they start making 50 kilogram chalices.
ReplyDeleteInteresting. It shouldn't make any difference to Catholics. The Anglicans are their own thing, have been for hundreds of years. There were some Anglican or Episcopal clergy, male of course, who transferred into the RC and received Catholic holy orders. They had objections to the ordination of women, among other things. Not sure if they were all part of the Anglican Ordinariate? I expect there may be some others who want to transfer now. But I don't think Pope Leo is going to be as receptive to that as some of his predecessors. He has spoken out about polarization in the church a lot. And these converts have trended very right wing.
ReplyDeleteI made my comment before I read Anne's @ 12:00 pm. She goes into more detail about the Ordinariate.
DeleteI remember Bishop Mariann Budde calling out Trump. He had it coming in spades, and has been so much worse lately.
H will probably leave instructions that his state funeral NOT be held at the Washington National Cathedral as so many have been. Of course, he’s immortal, so it probably won’t come up.
DeleteFrancis or Benedict tried to entice Anglicans by saying that they could keep their liturgies. It's a tone-deaf offer, since the differences between RCC and Anglican Communion are not liturgical but doctrinal, with the papacy being the biggest sticking point.
ReplyDeleteThe papacy is the big sticking point with trying to reconnect with the Orthodox. The papacy AND women’s ordination are both sticking points between Rome and the Anglicans.
DeleteI don’t see Christian “ unity” happening ever.
Maybe instead of focusing on organisational unity (everyone being under the same leadership) we should focus on the unity we do have in common, which is quite a bit. The Orthodox, the Anglicans and Episcopalians, and the Lutherans share with us the Nicene Creed (catholic with a small c). Also Baptism and a form of the Eucharist (especially the Orthodox) and a liturgical form of worship. Is it necessary that we all be under one roof, so to speak? We are farther away from the Evangelicals and some of the other Protestants. But we already do have a degree of unity with one another. We confess the same Lord.
DeleteI’m not a theologian nor a liturgist, so not hung up on doctrine, or liturgy, especially the GIRM. The ecclesiastical types are hung up on every little difference. Plus Rome and the Orthodox ban other Christians from receiving communion. The Anglicans, Episcopalians and Lutherans have an open table.
DeleteKatherine, I have always thought of Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, and Orthodox as people of the Eucharist--where Communion is a weekly sacrament of the Real Presence. Presbyterians and Methodists also believe in the Real Presence, though Communion is not always offered weekly.
DeleteEpiscopalians in the 1980s and '90s were very concerned about the rise of evangelical and fundamentalist mega-churches, particulary through the TV preachers. The Episcopal priests in my parishes accurately predicted and warned about the Culture Wars that would lead to legislative activism by social conservatives. There was renewed emphasis on and catechesis about the importance of Communion.
Catholics at the time ignored the rise of evangelicalism with the bemused contempt that they have always had for "Protestants."
As the Church loses adherents, perhaps it might pay more attention to the concerns of other people of the Eucharist and what those denominations outside the RCC are trying to preserve.
"Lambeth Palace is the London home of the Archbishop of Canterbury, his family and two religious communities. It is the centre of his ministry, worship and hospitality.
ReplyDeleteAs a working palace and a family home, Lambeth Palace is not open to the public on a daily basis. The Palace is currently undergoing an extensive programme of refurbishment. As such the Palace is currently closed for Tours. "
Lambeth Palace is somewhat like the Vatican in that it takes care of relationships with bishops around the world, but it only has any real influence over those in England, and that largely through its relationship with the government.
Canterbury Cathedral is more like the Saint John Lateran the actual Cathedral of the Bishop of Rome than like Saint Peters a place where the Bishop of Rome exercises his ministry.
Betty and I followed Dean Roberts and Canterbury Cathedral for three or four years (morning prayer daily and evening prayer often). Justin showed up rarely even after Covid had declined. Deans of Cathedrals play unusually large roles in the Anglican tradition. The liturgical life of the Cathedrals tends to center around them largely because of the importance of morning and evening prayer and their associated choristers in the Anglican tradition. They took over the ancient role of monks.
Thanks for that info on Lambeth. I was not aware that it was where the ABC hung out most of the time. Easier for her to hobnob with the royals to whom she is adviser and confessor. Lots of speculation about William's discomfort with inheriting the headship of the Church of England. He seems to want to ditch the role, but it requires an act of Parliament.
DeleteI looked up William and C of E. Apparently the bureaucratic steps needed to release him from his Royal obligation is so complicated that it is unlikely to happen. If he really doesn’t want to do it he would have to pass the kingship to someone else who would do it - his eldest child?
DeleteHe is signaling that he wants to strip down the monarchy, maybe like Queen Margarethe did in Denmark. If that's the overall direction he wants to go, he could look for ways to whittle down his C of E involvement short of parliamentary disestablishment. Either way, it would affect only the C of E, and not the Anglican communion overall. We fought a war so we were not saddled with a monarchy and all their claptrap, Trump and the Tech Bros notwithstanding ...
DeleteDoes the monarch as the head of the C of E actually do anything? I was under the impression that it was mainly a figurehead thing.
DeleteI don't know. Like I said, it's an English quirk that Episcopalians don't have to deal with and does not affect the worldwide communion.
DeleteA couple of the Stuart kings converted to Catholicism, but secretly so as not to mess up their succession. Charles got his head chopped off (but not strictly for turning Catholic; he was a tyrant). James didn't acknowledge his conversion until he was on his deathbed.
The Stuart propensity to flirt with Catholicism worried parliament. The upshot was that Mary (a Stuart daughter) and her reliably Protestant Dutch husband, William of Orange, were brought over to reign jointly and the Catholic Stuarts exiled. Hence a couple generations of Stuart pretenders.
Off topic: apropos of Jim's last homily on God and Mammon and Jack's text analysis, Pope Leo wove several threads about poverty, service, and St Francis together yesterday: https://www.ncronline.org/vatican/vatican-news/one-cant-serve-god-and-money-pope-says-day-he-signs-text-poverty
ReplyDeleteThanks, Jean for this head's up. I think his exhortation may be an important one especially if he talks about wealth as well as poverty. Of course, that might be very difficult to do and also keep his goal of bringing unity to the Church, especially here in America.
DeleteI am happy to know that he is continuing Francis’s legacy.
DeleteJean thanks for that link to Leo's remarks. I really look forward to the release of his document later this week.
DeleteBtw, extolling the spiritual benefits of poverty is not likely to play well in this White House.
Anything to do with preferential option for the poor isn’t even likely to play well with white American Catholics in the pews. So nothing will be said in most majority white parishes.
DeleteI don't think it plays well in the US as a whole. We live in a nation where poverty is shameful and faith is transactional.
DeleteSpent time last week at brother-in-law's funeral with a big contingent of Amish in-laws. Now that I'm old and poor, I see a good deal of grace in their anti-materialism, however outlandish I find their theology.
I had a lovely time talking about felted slipper patterns, tomato varietals, and laughing about how we're all running on black coffee since we turned 60 and our husbands can't remember where anything is. Certainly a good reminder of the importance of offering each other time and attention over money and stuff.
Jean, sorry to hear about your brother-in-law.
DeleteI admire a lot of things about the Amish. Don't think I could be one, though.
Since Uncle A and Aunt E died, the Amish cousins seem a lot more laid back. He was a bishop in their ordnung and she was a nark, and everybody was afraid of crossing them and getting shunned and what-not.
DeleteThe simplicity is attractive, but, as you note, the theology and other aspects are not.
DeleteSimplicity and renunciation of wealth might come across as a hypocritical message from the church that is essentially the most imperial organization left in the world, with lavish displays of wealth, from over the top silk and lace vestments, ermine capes, and cappae magnae borne by courtiers, to the papal finery and symbolism to the “ decor” - gold, precious jewels, etc- in the Vatican and cathedrals all over the world. A far cry from the simplicity of clothing and lifestyle of Jesus of Nazareth.
Yeah, I'm not trying to promote the Amish. Just saying that I appreciate the trouble they went to to show up for a grieving family member and to be cheerful for a change.
DeleteTrying to accept what people have to give and leave the rest on the table, like they tell you in AlAnon, but that my inner critic perfectionist control freak often doesn't.
The RCC is steeped in medieval pageantry that has historical significance and symbolism. It probably doesn't translate very well now, and the hierarchy might want to consider the message some of that stuff sends.
I do appreciate that the Church preserves its art and makes it available to people.
Yes, the art should be preserved. The Roman Catholic Church may have the most extensive art collection in the world if you count art in every Cathedral, convent, the Vatican and even many regular churches.
DeleteWas Raber’s brother a member of an Amish community or are they more distant relatives?
Raber's dad was Amish. He left at 16. There was a big flap when he wanted to come back for a visit with his English wife and kids. Wife and kids were fine, but Dad was shunned by eldest brother, Uncle A, and his parents. His sisters refused to shun. Grandma and Grandpa then relented and would visit, but would not eat with Dad.
DeleteIt's the sisters' kids who have been the ones to come to family things most frequently.
Shunning is definitely not a very Christian thing to do. Glad the younger generation is more open.
DeleteIf the RCC changes its message to simplicity from royal displays of wealth, it could start by declaring that cardinals are not “princes” of the church but just priests. Then move on to getting rid of the silk and ermine and lace and gold gilt.
DeleteYes, Anne. If they want traditional outfits, monks’ robes would do fine. Or simple secular priests’ clothes. The fancy stuff is the RC equivalent of the Pomp of the British royalty, Good tourist stuff but not much else.
DeleteNot suprising that our group is not a huge fan of ermine and lace, but just want to note the church is a big tent, and there are people who love that stuff.
DeleteThey can skip the ermine, I never saw that anyway. But I don't have a problem with a little bit of fancy if it's not excessive. I know Pope Leo goes in a little more for the vestments than Pope Francis did, and that's okay.
DeleteYeah, the local priest is very proud of his specially made vestments that he had made in Poland. Fine by me. The ermine and jewels come from a time when the Church used sumptuary conventions to illustrate that its power trumped that of kings and emperors. Now I think it comes off as a drag show to people outside the Church. But it's up to the Vatican to wrestle with that irony.
DeleteMy objection to the silk and lace is the symbolism. The luxurious finery does not recall Jesus of Nazareth, and seems almost a mockery of his teachings about wealth. These symbols are those of human greed - love of wealth and power, the anti- thesis of Jesus’s teachings. “People who love that stuff” can find plenty of it in the English monarchy, and now in the gilded White House that will soon be desecrated with a “ballroom” that will emulate Versailles.
DeleteMaybe the church needs a Franciscan in the Vatican next. A true reformer.
"My objection to the silk and lace is the symbolism. "
DeleteAdmittedly, I come at this from a funny angle. I'm a lover of classical music. There was a time, perhaps within the living memory of some of us, when supporting the local symphony orchestra or opera company was considered a sort of civic obligation, perhaps even extending to the notion of noblesse oblige, on the part of the wealthy in a community. In Chicago, the industrial and meat-packing barons kept those institutions afloat. And so they would attend the concerts in fine evening wear, not excluding silk hats on the part of the men, and their wives bejewelled. A sociologist might say it was a public venue where the class distinctions were reinforced.
But of course the tuxedos and silk hats are thing of the past. The wealthy still spend ridiculous amounts of money on clothing, but it is in pursuit of the studiously casual. The great-granddaughter of the former opera-gallery doyenne appears at concert events (and it's more likely to be a Taylor Swift concert than the Philharmonic) in a denim jacket - albeit one that costs thousands of dollars.
Anyway, where I'm going with this: the silk and lace of cardinals and popes - does it really associate them with the elite these days? I'm not sure it symbolizes much of anything beyond an attachment to a church that doesn't exist anymore.
Does any parish buy the fancy vestments? Mostly they just have them. Our parish has one chasuble that is literally a hundred years old. It is a brocade "fiddle-back" with a picture of the Sacred Heart on it. They get it out for the feast of the Sacred Heart. Mostly we use the simpler ones. But we can bring out the few more elaborate ones for a special occasion. Kind of like getting out the good china for Thanksgiving dinner.
DeleteThere are some inexpensive vestments at the local church, but the current priest has his own. Making vestments is a point of pride for wealthy church ladies with a flair for needlework in ECUSA parishes. Not sure if that's a thing in RC parishes.
DeleteThe EC/Anglican hierarchy have more simple garb than the RCs. . Our very middle class ECUSA parish didn’t have a single needlework expert in the entire congregation as far as I know. Not many rich folks - mostly middle class with college degree requiring jobs. The congregation was a mix - far more converts than cradle Episcopalians ( including the rector and associate rector), and most of the converts were former RC.
DeleteJim, the problem is that the over the top finery in Rome, and the preferred costumes of some Cardinals and bishops ( and I guess some parish priests?) , really is more British royals than Jesus of Nazareth. The message is all wrong. And I’m not so sure that today’s robber baron rich folk have really given up their fancy clothes when they go to their various charity balls and cultural gatherings. In DC, evening gowns can’t be seen twice (at least not on the same woman) so there are “resale” shops that specialize in designer gowns that have only been worn once. Some Washington power women who aren’t yet multi millionaires actually rent their designer gowns from discreet specialty shops. The local city magazines have photos every month of the elite in their finest making the rounds of balls and other social events. . Washingtonian magazine certainly does. I’m guessing Chicago has a similar glossy magazine that reports on the local society scene with lots of photos. Most major US cities have these magazines. If all else fails, go to a high end women’s hair styling salon and page through a copy of Town and Country! You will see plenty of $3000 denim jackets but you will also see plenty of multi, multi thousand $ gowns.
Our parish has bought a few vestments, primarily to allow multiple clergy to wear matching vestments on those occasions when that seems desirable. They're nice enough but not super-fancy. In addition, the Archdiocese purchases a white stole with the archdiocesan coat of arms for each of the deacons. That is primarily for diocesan events where several or many deacons might vestments. But by and large, clergy around here buy their own vestments (or receive them as gifts). Mine are more practical than fancy. But some guys, especially some priests, have very nice, very expensive vestments. I think they are "clothes horses".
DeleteGuessing those fancy garb priests also wear cassocks for every day? Instead of clerical suits?
Delete"Our very middle class ECUSA parish didn’t have a single needlework expert in the entire congregation as far as I know."
DeleteYah, my experience with ECUSA church ladies was 40 yrs ago. Many more needleworkers with time on their hands then for the Altar Society.
Making needlepoint cushions for the communion rail and embroidering altar cloths and funeral palls was another project for the needleworkers. I have the plain linen pall we used for my mom's ashes urn and thought about embroidering it for The Boy to use for Raber and me when the time comes.
I wish Archbishop Mullaly well. She seems like an interesting and effective person. I hope her appointment doesn't create controversy within the Anglican Communion.
ReplyDeleteI don't know why it should cause more controversy, since the Anglican Communion already has several woman bishops? If they don't object to women being priests, or women bishops, but object to one being in a leadership position like the Archbishop of Canterbury, that says something about the ones doing the objecting.
DeleteI had always thought well of Abp.Justin Welby but apparently there were problems with a cover up of improprieties (not his, but someone under his supervision). Sigh. At least we're not the only ones who have had those scandals.
It seems all religious groups have those scandals. But Welby resigned. Catholic bishops don’t. As Archbishop of Canterbury he was also head of the global Anglican communion. You will never hear of a pope resigning because of covering up,Catholic abuse.
DeleteIf us weren’t for the “ anti- catholic “ secular press American Catholics might never have become aware of the abuse of thousands of kids by prin our country.
The Rwandan bishops are pissed off about Mullally, but they've been that way for 20 years. I doubt tgey'll split over it.
DeleteJim, off topic, I hope you and your family are okay. Seeing some scary things about ICE invading Chicago.
ReplyDeleteNot to worry: our great President Trump will illegally and unConstitutionally send National Guard troops to protect us from his own ICE agents rappelling in full body armor through our living room windows.
DeleteIt sounds like a "what could possibly go wrong?" scenario.
DeleteFrom what I understand, the Amish make deliberated decisions about what technologies they will accept in their community. I like that a lot. Maybe if the larger culture thought about things like this, we might have avoided things like, let’s say, leaded gasoline?
ReplyDeleteI think my dad had a little bit of an Amish way of thinking. His attitude toward technology was that it was on a need to use, or need to know, basis. He eventually did get a cell phone, but only after he determined that he might need one if his pickup quit him out in the middle of nowhere (with a lot of encouragement by my brother).
Delete