A few thousand pilgrims, many of them young families with multiple children and the women covering their heads with lace veils, packed the altar area of the basilica to standing room-only capacity.The AP article provides a timeline, starting with Pope Benedict's election 20 years ago, of the institutional church's pendulum-like swings in its tolerance for adherents of the Latin Mass. In broad strokes, that tale is: Benedict brought the Latin Mass and its adherents closer into the mainstream of liturgical life; then Francis tried to push them back to the margins of the church.
Cardinal Raymond Burke, the conservative American figurehead, presided over the 2 1/2-hour liturgy, which was rich in hymn, incense and priests bowing to the altar, their backs to the faithful in the pews.
For many traditionalists, the moment was a tangible sign that Leo might be more sympathetic to their plight, after they felt rejected by Francis and his 2021 crackdown on the old liturgy.
The timeline could be pushed farther back. Vatican II introduced significant changes to the mass and other liturgical ceremonies, including switching the language of celebration from Latin to English. Those reforms were introduced into Catholic parishes in the later 1960s and early 1970s. All of us in this forum who were Catholic in that post-Conciliar period personally experienced that introductory period. It was a big change; and while, broadly speaking, Catholics were accepting of the changes, not all accepted them with good grace.
I was a kid when the post-Conciliar changes came about; I don't have a memory of the days of the Latin Mass, even though it must have continued as the normative liturgy for at least the first few years of my life. But like any kid, I watched my parents closely; and I could see that, for them, it took some effort to embrace the new liturgy. Among the extended family and their circle of friends, there was some mourning for what had been set aside; and there was some muttering about some of the new things. I'm sympathetic to them; their own formation in Catholicism included a lot of formation in the advantages and beauties of the old mass. And it wasn't only laypersons who felt this way; priests of that era had had even more intensive formation in the old liturgy, and it can't have been easy for all of them to let go of that history and distinctive spirituality.
Some Catholics couldn't bring themselves to accept the changes at all; breakaway groups, such as the Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX) were formed to sustain the old liturgies. Pope John Paul II (in whose papacy Cardinal Ratzinger, later Pope Benedict, exercised considerable influence), instituted a commission called Ecclesia Dei to try to bring those 'renegade' groups back into full communion with the church - an initiative that never fully succeeded, but which did result in the old Latin Mass being celebrated here and there under institutional church auspices.
I think it's fair to say that, when the reformed liturgy was introduced, the institutional church's hope and expectation was that the use of the older liturgical books would cease; at first immediately, and then, when it became clear that that wasn't in the cards, then over time - perhaps over the course of a generation. But events haven't transpired that way. Today, some 60 years after the Council and half a century after the reformed liturgy became a daily reality in parishes, Latin Mass communities are still there.
And it is not just the stubborn, disgruntled elderly who attend Catholic Latin Masses these days. Younger Catholics are finding their way to the Latin Mass, too. Here is the AP article:
The Hungarian ambassador to the Holy See, Eduard Habsburg, stood for over an hour with his family among the pilgrims to cross through the basilica’s Holy Door, and then found spots in the standing-room-only section for the Mass.“It’s really nothing like the cliches you hear of traditionalists,” he said as he inched his way into the basilica. “The reality is families with children.”
And so, what to do about the Latin Mass communities within the church has been a persistent question for the institution. Benedict's hope was that the two sets of liturgical books and practices, co-existing in the same communities and perhaps even the same parishes, would enrich one another and lead to mutual appreciation and unity. For Francis's part, he seemed to have little or no patience with the Latin Mass and its adherents. He tried to make it more difficult for local Latin Mass groups, and sympathetic priests, to get permission to celebrate.
If I may say so, I've never thought that either approach hit the bulls-eye. In my view, Benedict's approach was too lenient, whereas Francis's was too restrictive. I base this view on what exists in my archdiocese today. There are a handful of old Latin Masses scheduled each week in certain faith communities here and there. One can easily live one's entire life as a Catholic in the Chicago Archdiocese without being aware of their existence. Yet those daily and weekly masses are among us, serving Catholics who evidently draw spiritual nourishment from them.
I appreciate the notion that the liturgy is a powerful symbol of unity; and so it's best if there is a normative set of prayers and accompanying praxis. But - in my view, the church must take seriously the reality that the old Latin Mass genuinely attracts some Catholics, and it seems to feed them spiritually. One of Francis's favorite dicta seems applicable here: reality is more important than ideas.
Perhaps it's too early to judge what Leo's views and policies are regarding the Latin Mass adherents. I'm not aware of anything in his background or his statements suggesting he is one of them. Yet, if he is content to alow them to continue to exist - and perhaps even thrive and grow - in our midst, then that strikes me as a more promising path to true peace and reconciliation than what we saw in the previous two papacies.
No opinion either way on this. I remember going to mass in Montreal with my boyfriend (40 years ago!), and he said he wished it was still in Latin so he could follow it better. He didn't speak very good French. So I think that the Latin mass might convey a universality that the vernacular does not, at least to people who remember it.
ReplyDeleteHowever, in the US, the churches that promote Latin mass seem to be the ones that advertise themselves as "authentically" Catholic and the people in those parishes are the most mean-ass conservatives about culture war issues.
I don't doubt that the Latin mass can be spiritually nourishing. But I think it nourishes the wrong things in some Catholics, and that bears watching.
Jean, you’ve hit the nail on the head. The Latin mass movement in the US is, in essence, a political, culture war movement. It’s a Catholic movement that is primarily composed of the same kind of people who make up the 81% of evangelicals who are the biggest MAGA supporters. Most of the prominent converts to Catholicism in recent years are from that same group of right wing evangelicals. Vance is currently the most famous of these. Jim, there won’t be “ peace” in the pews until the political atmosphere changes or the progressive Catholics have died or the stragglers have finally been driven out of the church. Tens of millions of cradle Catholics have already left - mostly progressives. According to an article I read somewhere in the last few weeks, the extreme conservatism of the younger priests has been officially documented and so the VII generation people who are still hanging in there will give up and leave also or they will die, Jean’s parish seems a perfect example of this.
DeleteJean- “ in the US, the churches that promote Latin mass seem to be the ones that advertise themselves as "authentically" Catholic and the people in those parishes are the most mean-ass conservatives about culture war issues.
I don't doubt that the Latin mass can be spiritually nourishing. But I think it nourishes the wrong things in some Catholics, and that bears watching.”
Yup.
Unlike youngsters like Jim, I do remember the Latin mass, as English wasn’t introduced until my senior year of college. The vernacular was introduced in France earlier - it was in French when I lived there as a student.. It was in German then also. A friend and I went to Germany for Christmas and it was already in German there also. I didn’t know German, but had no trouble following the mass in German because I knew the order of the mass anyway. I was as close as could be (not close at all, but everything is relative);to being a Latin “scholar“ in my tiny mountain high school. I took it for four years, and won the awards at the end of the school year. I didn’t actually need to use the bilingual missal by my junior year. But most of the time I couldn’t hear the priest whose back was to us and who mumbled so I read the missal anyway. Most women said the rosary. Most men fell asleep with their eyes open, but sometimes closed. The kids squirmed, trying to see if any of their friends were there. After communion most people headed for the parking lot directly from the communion rail.
My opinions of the Latin mass crowd now are based exclusively on written reports - articles - and on their comments on Catholic sites - not on personal experience in one of their parishes. They seem to exert a disproportionate influence on the church these days. I have never heard of a Latin mass anywhere in my area but I’m sure there is one somewhere. My sense of what today’s Latin Mass fans experience is not the normal mass we experienced in my day, but a “high mass”. They seem very caught up in the show - watching a liturgical play on the altar, with the priest in a fancy costume, and music sung by a well trained choir. These congregations are made up of a self- selected group of “fanatics“. But mass isn’t meant to be entertainment and the people aren’t meant to simply be a passive audience. That’s what mass was when I grew up - we were an audience. My mom never seemed unhappy with the change but we never talked about it, as I was gone by then. We college kids thought it was fine - in truth, most of us really didn’t care much, one way or the other. But it was less boring than it had been because we pew sitters were a bit more involved. Benedict’s decision pretty much destroyed the unity of the church because it really was a culture war/ political movement even then, as well as a liturgical movement.
Much has been made of how ultra conservative the younger priests are. I dunno. We have had three priests or seminarians from our parish in the last ten years. One is already ordained, two are in seminary. I have known them literally all their lives. They just seemed like ordinary good, kind kids. I don't see them as culture warriors.
DeleteKatherine, I will try to find some of the studies. Your small sample is not representative based on the studies that have been done.
DeleteIt's a mixed bag, I'm sure. The last two local priests are the same age. Current one is a rad trad on a big power trip. The previous guy was very nice, down to earth, promoted to head pastor in a big Lansing parish. Raber now goes there. Not wild about extra mileage on the car or driving 40 miles in winter, but they do broadcast mass live on YouTube.
DeleteI see this as an effort on the part of Pope Leo to heal the polarization in the church. I do remember the days when Mass was in Latin. It was just how things were, it wasn't making a political or cultural statement. Which isn't how things became later. My preference is the Ordinary Form. But I have often thought, why couldn't the Latin Mass be just another rite in the church? We have the uniate eastern rites, the Syro-Malabar rite in India, the Maronite rite, etc. They are all considered Catholics and recognize the authority of the pope.
ReplyDeleteI experienced in my family both the people feeling the loss of the older form, and the ones who welcomed the changes of the newer one. Dad was a cradle Catholic who missed the familiarity of the Latin Mass. Mom was a convert who welcomed the Vatican II changes, especially when the priest was able to face the people and she could see what was going on. Said it always felt rude to have to have his back turned to the people. Of course the Latin Mass enthusiasts will claim that the priest was turning his face to God. Which seems to me to limit God, but whatever. Having said that, I remember a lot of the Latin responses and still wouldn't be too uncomfortable with a Latin Mass if it didn't include a dose of politics.
I understand why Pope Paul VI made the VII changes the "ordinary form" at that time. Perhaps enough years have passed now that it can still be the preferred option, but there could be room for the older Mass to coexist. I think there is a danger in making the two forms rivals.
Katherine, the two forms are rivals because of the culture war elements. As you note, “ I remember a lot of the Latin responses and still wouldn't be too uncomfortable with a Latin Mass if it didn't include a dose of politics”. The Mass itself isn’t innately political, but its adoption is. And based on what I read from and about the Latin mass crowd, conversation might be very uncomfortable at coffee hour. Finding “community” with those who are the majority in this movement might be impossible.
DeleteI hadn’t heard that the priest faced east because he was facing God. I have picked up a number of Jewish customs and beliefs from living in a majority Jewish community for 50+ years. So I had assumed that facing east was incorporating the Jewish belief that the Messiah will come to Jerusalem- in the east. So there is a practice of burying their dead with their feet facing east- towards Jerusalem - because that that is where the Messiah will come. The practice is founded in the notion that they will be ready to greet the Messiah immediately when they are resurrected.
Catholic moms in my neighborhood said kids paid more attention at mass when it was in English, and that made it a better experience for all concerned. Fewer kids getting the belt after mass for misbehavior stemming from boredom.
DeleteOff topic, but Pope Leo promotes the value of the humanities in education, bless him.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.ncronline.org/vatican/pope-urges-catholic-teachers-focus-less-professional-outcomes-more-spiritual-lives
Sadly, American education is expensive and all about job training, so won't have any impact here. But nice to hear a world leader promote an educational outcome that is more spirit-based.
To bring this back to Jim's topic: Are there enriching lessons to be learned from the Latin mass were it not so fraught?
DeleteThe Vatican II reforms were about a lot more than using the vernacular. But, no time now to discuss.
DeleteI'm not really talking about V2 changes broadly, just the Latin liturgy. Maybe to Catholics, tho, you can't separate them. I just don't have that insider's view.
DeleteThe Church Ladies spent hours telling us what pre-V2 Catholicism was like. Lots of self-indulgent tripping down Memory Lane, but the subtext always being how easy we were going to have it as post-V2 Catholics.
One thing my dad said that he liked about the Latin Mass was that you could go anywhere in the world and the Mass would be the same. I'm sure there is something to be said for that, it probably was a unifying factor back in the day. And the Ordinary Form Mass can still be said in Latin. If there is a crowd which doesn't share a common language, they probably sometimes do that in a place like Rome when there are tourists from different places. But just saying Mass in Latin doesn't make it the Extraordinary Form.
DeleteThere are some things about the old Mass that I thought were beautiful. On of them was that they read the Prologue to the Gospel of John at the end. "In principio erat verbo...", In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God..."
DeleteAnother thing was the prayer the priest said when he gave you Communion, "Corpus Domini nostri Iesu Christi custodiat animam tuam in vitam aetaernam, Amen." Which is, " May the body of our Lord Jesus Christ preserve your soul unto life everlasting." That was said where they would now say "The body of Christ", and was said for every communicant. Of course it was said fast, and it didn't really sink in unless you had read the translation in the missal. But beautiful words.
The part of the Mass where the priest read the Prologue to John (John 1:1-14) was called the Last Gospel in the missal, and was a relatively recent addition, 1600s. I read that prior to that it had been read silently by the priest (I don't know what time frame that was.)
DeleteKatherine is a lot more familiar with the Latin mass prayers. She still remembers them. I forgot them all the minute the vernacular arrived. I've never missed anything at all about the Latin mass.
DeleteI think that B16 allowing the pre-Vatican II mass as an extraordinary form of the Mass that every priest could say without permission of his bishop made a huge mistake. It allows any priest to form a cult group around that celebration. I am glad that Francis said that permission was abused and undid it.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, I think any bishop without the permission of the pope should be able to allow any priest in his diocese to say the pre-Vatican II mass for good pastoral reasons with needing the approval of Rome. I think Francis went too far in the other direction in limiting the approval that diocesan bishops can give. Basically, the bishop is the chief liturgist in his diocese.
If individual bishops abuse their freedom to authorize the pre-Vatican II Mass by promoting its use in parishes, then Rome has to deal with those bishops on a case- by- case basis.
Canon law allows each Catholic to have their own spirituality. So allowing some Catholics to use the pre-Vatican II Mass is in accord with that ideal. On the other hand, once a priest, or bishop begins imposing the pre-Vatican II Mass on certain parishes, I think the spirit of the Canon law calls for removal of those priests and bishops.
I don't think the level of demand for the pre-Vatican II mass requires that any bishop or a priest accommodate this spirituality. We simply don't have enough priests.
The whole issue is complicated in that many of the bishops, priests and laity who advocate the pre-Vatican Mass do not see it as an optional spirituality but as a better form of spirituality than the ordinary form. It is alright to be a contemplative in the church but if you go around saying that people living active lives are inferior then you cause problems. You are heading in the direction of sectarianism which has splintered Protestant churches.
"The whole issue is complicated in that many of the bishops, priests and laity who advocate the pre-Vatican Mass do not see it as an optional spirituality but as a better form of spirituality than the ordinary form."
DeleteYes. It often used to be expressed, and perhaps still is, in a superior sort of "Catholicker-than-Thou" (or "more Catholic than the Pope") attitude toward other Catholics, who were also accused of being "cafeteria Catholics".
Francis was a conundrum for them because he made it difficult for them to be unswervingly loyal to him.
I think there can be no doubt that adherents of the old Latin Mass also are politically and culturally conservative. I'd expect that quite a few of those parents with children mentioned in the AP article homeschool their kids.
ReplyDeleteWhat would attract a young person to the old Latin Mass? One set of factors is what I would group under the umbrella of "aesthetics". They love the look and sound of the old mass: the beautiful old churches; the chant and polyphany; the fine vestments. The women can look fetching in their mantillas, and the men dashing in their suit jackets and ties (not excluding bow ties) - that might be part of it, too.
ReplyDeleteWe might note also the seriousness and intentionality of those involved in the worship. Everyone is there because they very much want to be. Some of them traveled great distances. It can be compelling to be with a group of the similarly-motivated.
Worship in Latin is also tinged in some way with the countercultural: they're participating in something that is decidedly not mainstream. That has its appeal to a person of a certain sort.
As I mentioned in the post, I think the spirituality is genuine as well. Word that come to my mind include such things as "submission" and "sacrifice". Evidently there are people who hunger for such things and, perhaps, are not finding in sufficient quantity in the local parish.
When people focus too much on aesthetics they miss the whole point. Who doesn't enjoy uplifting music and beautiful surroundings? But have they ever read Fr. Walter Ciszek's account of saying Mass in a Siberian forest with the juice of a few grapes and some crumbs of bread, when he was imprisoned in a Soviet work camp there? I remember going to our first in person Mass in 2020 after 11 weeks of Covid lockdown. There wasn't any music, we were wearing masks, and had to stand 6 feet apart. That didn't matter, it was joyful anyway. Sometimes it seems like people want to be entertained.
DeleteJim, most of what you mention - the men in their suits, the priests in “ fine” vestments, the women in mantillas - are rather superficial things that have nothing to do with what the mass is supposed to mean. Do the women in mantillas even know why women had to cover their hair in ancient times? Why it is still demanded of most Muslim women and Orthodox Jewish women?..
DeleteListening to beautiful music can also be superficial, especially if they don’t even understand the words. It can be a fine aesthetic experience if the only point is to be entertained by an artistic performance such as an opera in Italian or German, or chant in Latin. I have long felt that those who prefer the Latin mass really wish to see a performance- not participate in the mass with a community, but be part of an audience of people with the same taste.
I think it’s possible also that these young people - very conservative as you note - idealize the past when gender roles were “ clear”, when women knew their place - in the home, subservient to their husbands. All very evangelical Protestant. Life is complicated these days and they imagine that it was better in the 50s. It wasn’t for most people, but they think it was. The Latin mass symbolizes a time that they think was “better”. So they gather with like minded people, as you note. That’s a common instinct. And, as both you and Jack note, they think they are superior to other Catholics. Benedict opened the door for this polarization. It has been made worse by the political polarization as the political and religious conservatives aligned. Sometimes I think it would be better for the trads to all break away and join the Pius X folk, and for the US to become two countries - red and blue. The values and beliefs and ideals are so far apart within the church, and in the country, it might be best for all to go their separate ways. Unfortunately it isn’t likely to happen.
I think it's possible to underestimate the power of aerlsthetics - and it cuts both ways. It really can be a bit soul-crushing to gather in a drab, ugly building and be subjected to poor music, week after week. And genuine beauty and artistry can be a portal to deeper things.
DeleteJim, and the silly practice of wearing mantillas? Music at mass is sometimes nice, often just bearable, and definitely not really necessary. The type of music preferred for mass has also generated civil war in the Catholic Church for decades now. Personally, I prefer no music at mass, but I suppose I’m the exception. If there are hymns , I prefer the simple, singable music of the St Louis Jesuit era. But that’s just my taste. I love to listen to classical music and chant, but not at mass, just as personal entertainment. The music wars are part of the liturgy wars. As far as “ genuine” beauty is concerned, that is also in the eye of the beholder - a matter of personal taste. I heartily dislike lots of painted statues in churches, crucifixes with a life sized bleeding Jesus on it, gilt anything on the altar, etc. I much prefer simplicity. But others, like Trump, love lots of gilt, Burke loves the frippery, and obviously some regular Catholics do too, but I find these displays to be off- putting. There are wonderful museums and symphony halls and other music centers in every major city and many small towns.. Churches aren’t supposed to be entertainment venues. It sounds like your conservative soul may be attracted to the pre- Vatican II liturgy and its accoutrements. I’m surprised that you haven’t gone to a Latin mass in your area somewhere.
DeleteTo be clear, I do think music and liturgy are important. If I didn't, I wouldn't have spent 50+ years singing in choirs! I love sacred music, I just think it's important to remember why we're doing it.
DeleteAnd I do love our 100+ years old church, it isn't that big or very grand, but it does have pretty windows and real bells. But if Mass in a gym (or someone's house, like pioneer days) were the only option in town, I'd be there.
I think it would be a tragedy to separate our whole world into "trads or moderns", reds or blues. Jesus' prayer was that we all be one.
"Jim, and the silly practice of wearing mantillas?"
DeleteBut there are other women who apparently don't see it as silly, who seem to embrace the spirituality that a mantilla represents.
It is interesting that the mantilla has always been a thing among Latina women, but not so much among Anglos, until Jackie Kennedy made it popular in the 60s. I am embarrassed to say that I had a Barbie pink one as a teenager.
DeleteNowadays I don't wear anything on my head unless it's cold (I can hear my mom saying, "you don't want an ear ache!")
I would be a piss poor representative of the humanities if I said that aesthetics--the human desire to create beauty--didn't matter to me. And I do think that the use of Latin in the Church was beautiful.
ReplyDeleteWhat would be some ways of preserving the Latin mass in certain locations or on certain occasions without people turning it into a culture wars symbol?
And are the churches that are pushing or currently offering Latin masses teaching Latin as part of their religious education efforts? Nothing aesthetically worse that I can think of than Jim's dashing suited gentlemen men and fetching mantilla'd ladies bollixing up Latin pronunciation. Worse than singing off key!
I imagine that the Ukrainian rite Catholics probably teach some pronunciation of Old Church Slavonic (Sts. Cyril and Methodius, pray for us). Dominican nuns taught us how they pronounced Latin. I took their word for it.
DeleteChurch Latin is pronounced pretty much like Italian, with some exceptions. I took one year of Latin in high school, the teacher said classical academic Latin was pronounced different than church Latin (Eytalia est pynensula). Found out in an A and P class in college that medical Latin isn't pronounced like church Latin either. I pronounced "vena cava" as "vaina cahva". The professor said, "you must be Catholic, it's veena cayva". Go figure!
Yah, my Greek Orthodox friends went to Saturday Greek lessons all the way thru elementary school. Fewer Americans take foreign languages nowadays, and Latin courses are pretty much gone from public high schools. I would not count on people in the pews being able to handle Latin prayers just by telling them to "pronounce it like Latin."
DeleteIt's easier to learn pronunciation if you sing it. "Gloria in egg-chell-sees Deo".
Delete*oops: "pronounce it like Italian."
Delete"And are the churches that are pushing or currently offering Latin masses teaching Latin as part of their religious education efforts?"
DeleteYes, I have observed this personally.
As to a non-political or non-divisive way of using Latin: a (very) little is still in use, as when a parish will use "Agnus Dei" instead of "Lamb of God".
I think someone here mentioned that having a common language allows people who speak different languages to worship together. In my view, that's not a trivial consideration in this current situation where many parishes have an English mass and a Spanish mass (read: an English-speaking community and a Spanish-speaking community, with relatively little cross-affiliation between them). Latin was both a practical and a symbolic unifying element. Otherwise, in the US, the unifying language is English (which virtually all immigrants must learn to navigate society) - an approach that some people consider hegemonic.
To be sure, there are also folks who considered the imposition of Latin, especially in non-European lands, to be hegemonic. It's hard to remove politics from these things.
There are a lot of live-streamed Masses around, especially since the pandemic. But I have not heard if any of them are Extraordinary Form. That would be one way for the Latin Mass enthusiasts to get their fix if the EF isn't available where they live.
ReplyDeleteMy Greek Orthodox friend’s kids, and now her grandkids, went to Greek School until high school. They learned modern Greek. I have attended many services at her church during the last 45 years. They were bilingual, and the people had a bilingual missal, just as I did growing up. She said that most Greek Orthodox only know modern Greek and the Greek used in the liturgy is Ancient Greek, mostly unintelligible to the lay members of the congregation. The Greek the kids learn is modern because they are learning it for cultural reasons rather than religious reasons.
ReplyDeleteThe Jewish kids in our neighborhood go to Hebrew School starting in third grade. They study biblical Hebrew to prepare to celebrate their bar/ bat mitzvahs when they are 13. During the service they read from the Torah aloud. Then they engage in a fairly discussion with the rabbi about the Torah readings. There are bilingual prayer books in the synagogues I’ve visited also. Then the members of the congregation are invited to join the discussion with questions or comments. I love the Jewish services I’ve been to because the entire congregation is really able to participate. It’s probably different in the uber Orthodox synagogues. I’ve only attended services in Conservative and Reform synagogues. There is only one bat mitzvah or bar mitzvah at a time - it’s not a group event as Confirmation is.
My Latin teacher had us pronounce Latin phonetically as we do English ( most of the time). She pointed out that nobody knows how it was pronounced because it had died out as a spoken language so many centuries ago. I suppose nuns and priests and scientists and scholars can decide how to pronounce it as it suits them.
Personally, i have few preferences about music. I don’t care how people dress. They can come in a tux if they want, or in jeans. My most memorable and meaningful mass experiences took place in private homes, and outdoors in a natural setting, including a beach campground.
I feel that the theological reasons for reforming the mass were good. and should be promoted. But I really wouldn’t care about the Latin mass people if it weren’t for their political attitudes and their belief that their liturgy is better than any other, looking down their noses at the rest of Catholics who aren’t “authentic “ Catholics in their minds. The mass is the mass no matter what language is used. But the Latin mass lovers, at least those quoted in articles and who comment online, are pretty obnoxious. I especially started to dislike them because of what many said about Pope Francis.
I remember Kyrie eleison, Christe eleison, being the only Greek part of the Mass. Our old Irish pastor pronounced it with a brogue. That part of the Mass is still called the Kyrie, and sometimes we do say the Greek.
DeleteThe hometown parish has an Indian priest now. I think he was a Latin rite Catholic, rather than Syro-Malabar. I haven't been to Mass in person there since he came, but have seen the livestream. His English is good but you have to listen. The people there have been pretty accepting because they realize they could easily not have a resident priest.
Yeah, I don't like it either when people fancy themselves more Catholic than the pope. I think it is because they get into these online rabbit holes.
Our Latin teacher in my freshman year of high school was a Christian Brother (FSC) and a refugee fresh from Cuba. He had learned English in something like two or three weeks. He had a very thick accent and although we were all Catholics who had been saying and singing Latin throughout elementary school, some were confused and tried to imitate our teacher's Cuban accented Latin pronunciation.
DeleteWriting this, I realize that I have never wondered what the actual, correct, "unaccented" Latin should sound like, if there is such a thing. (I am speaking of Church Latin, not the Latin of ancient Rome.)
Hee hee, want my mini-lecture about medieval Church Latin? Didn't think so.
DeleteI took Latin for four years. We had to do a project every year. Sophomore year we studied Caesar’s Gallic Wars and had to do a diorama or some other “artistic“ project related to it. I hated that. I’m not a bit artistic and have little interest in the logistics and strategies of wars. Senior year we read The Aeneid, but our project didn’t have to be related. Two friends and I translated “Be Kind to Your Webfooted Friends” into Latin and sang it. We got an A. I remember how to sing it in Latin to this day.
DeleteJean, I would be interested in your lesson in midaevil church Latin. Like all languages, I assume it evolved over the centuries and that it was quite different from Virgil’s Latin. Few can understand Canterbury Tales in the original English. We had to memorize the opening sentences and pronounce those as our teacher did, but I’m wondering now if she knew how to pronounce it any better than anyone else.
DeleteI had to read the Aeneid in freshman lit in college. But it was an English translation. All I remember about Canterbury tales was "Whan that Aprill with his showers soote..."
DeleteKatherine. That’s the same line we had to memorize. And it’s stuck all these years!
DeleteInteresting thing about medieval Church Latin was how its declensions and tenses were regularized and that different language speakers imposed native word order and spelling conventions. The variants of Latin by region is often a clue to help paleographers and linguists figure out dates and places of fragmentary manuscripts.
DeleteIf you listen to Latin spoken in different parts of the world today, you'll hear pronunciation variations. My guess is that this was even more pronounced in the Middle Ages, when most people only heard Latin spoken in the local Church by local clergy and had no recourse to recordings that would correct their pronunciation.
I have never thought about that. Of course Latin would have been like other languages in different places - pronounced differently in different geographic locations. But correcting pronunciation is problematic with most languages. Whose accent is “ correct”? We have slight regional differences in pronunciation — accents—in North America. The same is true in the UK. And in France, and I assume in most countries. However I didn’t realize that the unusual to me (a native speaker of English) word order in Latin sentence construction might not be the same everywhere Latin was used as a living language. Native German speakers probably don’t find it as challenging as I did, because their declensions and word order seemed similar to Latin when I studied German for a while. Once Latin died out as the vernacular everywhere, including in Rome, but lived on in the Church, did it continue to evolve differently in the church in different countries. I would assume Yes. So does the church have an official “proper” pronunciation - with its own imprimatur? I’m trying to imagine listening to a teacher read Latin to a class with a heavy Cuban accent. Since the masses I went to in France back in the 60s were already in French, not Latin as they still were in the US, I never heard Latin with a French accent. English has changed dramatically since Chaucer, not just in pronunciation, but spelling and word usage. Has Latin changed just as dramatically even though nobody was actually speaking it in everyday life? It doesn’t seem so. I think the Latin of the Aeneid in the books we used in high school had the same words as those originally written, but maybe they didn’t?
DeleteThose are all interesting questions. I wish I had got more into the weeds with Latin. One of my friends in grad school translated something by Isidore of Seville and found it a bit of a slog until he got used to the grammatical idiosyncrasies. If a scribe did not understand Latin him/herself, mistakes were made and texts could easily become hard to decipher. I have often wondered if the corruption of Latin texts was what prompted the Anglo-Saxons to translate so much into the vernacular. I honestly don't know much about the quality of Latin in Anglo-Saxon times, so that will be a fun rabbit hole to run down this week!
DeleteThomas Reese has a column in NCR about a recent survey that documents the conservatism of younger priests, in both politics and the church.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.ncronline.org/opinion/guest-voices/while-out-sync-lay-catholics-conservative-young-priests-are-future-us-church
That's an interesting article Anne, thanks for providing the URL.
DeleteThe article doesn't distinguish between foreign-born and US-born priests. I speculate that the foreign-born are more theologically conservative. That's been my persional experience, anyway.
I can't think of the last time we had a young priest in our parish who was US-born. I think it was 30+ years ago.
I think Reese is right that the seminaries may tend to screen out the theologically adventerous. I don't see that as a conservative plot, as much as a reflection of the fact that, on many social issues such as contraception, gay marriage, IVF, women in leadership positions - and even abortion - the American people have become more liberal, while the church has clung to its traditional teachings.
One set of ideas I've heard over the years, but don't see discussed in Reese's article, is that the more liberal (and perhaps even middle-of-the-road) Catholic families don't produce vocations in their families, while the conservative families are more likely to. I've heard a couple of angles on that. One is that the two people in a young person's life who are most influential in their pursuing a vocation are the person's mom, and the person's parish priest. I guess this is going to sound like I'm blaming moms for the vocation crisis, but - if the mom doesn't think becoming a priest or a sister is a wonderful thing, the young person is less likely to pursue it. I just think a lot of moms these days, at least where I live, are not wholeheartedly with the church. Not just moms, but I do think it's also true of moms.
Another angle I've heard is that vocations tend to emerge from large families. That notion may be anecdotal, I'm not sure. A bishop mentioned it to me once. On the whole, American families are smaller now than they were a couple of generations ago. I expect Catholics, who as a group are more educated and prosperous than the country as a whole, reflect this trend toward smaller families.
The three young men from our parish who are in various stages of formation are different from each other. The one who was ordained 5 or so years ago is from a small family, he has one sister. The one who will be ordained a transitional deacon next spring is from a family of six kids. His dad unfortunately died the year he graduated high school. His mom has remarried. The one who just entered undergraduate seminary is from a family of 10 kids. He was homeschooled through grade school and attended regular high school. Before you roll your eyes and say well THAT explains it, actually it doesn't. The thing they all have in common is that they are kind, thoughful young men.
DeleteI read Ft. Reese's article. But I think we shouldn't pre-judge young people who are trying a vocation. Give them a chance and see how they turn out. And pray for them. Life takes us in different directions, all of us have changed since we were 18. I just don't want to pigeonhole people.
There are several priests in our archdiocese whose dads are permanent deacons. Don't know if that's a thing elsewhere.
DeleteJim- “ if the mom doesn't think becoming a priest or a sister is a wonderful thing, the young person is less likely to pursue it. I just think a lot of moms these days, at least where I live, are not wholeheartedly with the church.”
DeleteI agree with you on this. The data show that educated young women have been leaving the church in greater numbers than young men in recent years, a big change from when young men were more likely to leave. The women normally make the decisions about the marriage ceremony, and, as you know, the numbers of marriages in the church have been falling dramatically for years. So it’s not surprising that the numbers of infant baptisms hit lows in recent years. The young women, when interviewed in surveys, say they don’t want to raise children in a church that treats females as less-than males. They don’t want their daughters to see that the church thinks their sons could be priests but not their daughters. They grew up in a country that treated them more as equal to men than my generation of women experienced. They broke down the barriers that had prevented women of my generation from being easily accepted to law schools, medical schools, graduate school programs, and as firefighters, police officers, military, etc in numbers equal to men. But they were raised in a church that still teaches that women can be denied a sacrament due to their DNA. They don’t want that for their own children. (The women who don’t mind are flocking to the Latin masses). I raised our sons Catholic to provide a foundation for faith, but also let them know that we expected them to make their own decisions about religion as adults and wouldn’t be a bit upset if that choice wasn’t to stay Catholic. At one time my eldest son decided to play mass - he was the priest, our coffee table was the altar, and he gave his younger brothers grape juice and crackers for communion. Seeing this I prayed then that none of our sons would want to become priests ( I really did - literally prayed that while watching the pretend mass), and silently vowed to lie down in the road in front of the car if one decided to run away to a seminary! I did not want them swearing an oath of obedience to men. I did not want them in a position of having to teach things they might not believe. I was asked a couple of times to teach religious Ed at the parish. I refused because I knew I would be expected to teach doctrines I reject. I felt somewhat the same about a military career because they could be ordered to do things they believed to be wrong. My Lai was a bitter, cruel experience for young men who were “ just following orders”.
Many moms might hang in with the church because of family tradition, but have no desire for their children to become priests or nuns.
Remember the history - The Catholic immigrants who came in waves to America in the 19th and early 20th centuries were mostly poor. They had to work very hard to survive and higher education was generally out of reach. The Irish in particular tended to push at least one son and one daughter into the priesthood or a religious vocation. It made them proud, but they also knew that these children would receive an education that they could not afford to provide and very often the priest son was the first member of the family to get a college education. The daughters who became nuns also often received a higher education, generally educated by their orders to be nurses, run hospitals, and teach at all levels, including college.
DeleteToday, this is what motivates many families in Africa and other poor nations whose sons are now priests in America and Europe to encourage their sons to become priests. They are educated, successful, and make their families proud. They may also be able to send a little money home to help the family, or one day be in a position to sponsor family members to emigrate to America ( not while trump is Pres though).
The “ vocation crisis “ is very likely the fault of the male hierarchs who cling to power. They don’t want married priests and they don’t want women priests no matter what the Holy Spirit says. So the crisis continues. The progressives continue to leave the church, taking future generations with them. The conservatives are pumping out lots of kids but still can’t make up the numbers who have left.
I would have been pleased and proud of them if one or both of our sons had decided to become priests. I am pleased and proud of both of them that they are happily married men who seemed to have found their niche in life. The only thing I prayed about their futures was that they would find what God created them for. I think they are on that road. Same prayer for the granddaughters. I am not worried that they can't be priests, it doesn't seem to be worrying them either. Oldest one who is 17 wants to be an airline pilot. I am more worried that with the federal aviation agencies having been "Doged" that she will be less safe in the air and less supported in her career, if that is what she ends up doing.
DeleteJim - “ can't think of the last time we had a young priest in our parish who was US-born. I think it was 30+ years ago.”
DeleteSeriously? That’s hard to believe given that you live in a major urban area with lots of Catholics.
Yes, I’m not surprised that you would have been fine with having a priest son. You are very devout and don’t have the difficulties with Catholic teachings that I have. BTW, I never had the slightest desire to be a priest. But some Catholic women do feel a powerful call to the priesthood. As a pew sitter Catholic I also came to realize that Catholics miss out by not having women priests- the Church is hurt because the voice of women is silenced in the church. It denies the understandings of the feminine mind of God. After all, God is not a man, and God made male AND female in Gods image. I realized this especially strongly after experiencing having a woman priest at our EC parish for 12 years. She was a great priest. He was a great priest, But she brought a feminine understanding to the scriptures and gave outstanding homilies. He did also, but his reflected masculine thinking, which is the only thinking allowed in the RCC. Her insights were a breath of fresh air. But just as most Catholic priests’ homilies I’ve heard throughout my life were pretty uninspiring, I have also heard pretty uninspiring stuff from women priests. That parish was lucky to have had two great priests, a man and a woman, who together were an example of true complementarity. The RCC version is like evangelicals - in its teachings and practice. So the man is the “leader” and “ head” of the church and family, and the women are meant by God to be the followers - subservient, passive not actors - to them. That’s just one of the several teachings I reject,. I would have been upset if my sons wanted to be priests and had been willing to pledge obedience to men (and perhaps be ordered by their bishop to hide their knowledge of the sexual abuse of kids, which did happen) or promulgate teachings that they dissent from. I would have been really upset if they agreed with the teachings! I am proud that our sons are good husbands, good fathers, and good human beings. Fortunately none have to compromise their beliefs in their chosen lives, which they probably would have had to do in the priesthood. I actually considered becoming a nun when I was young. After hearing about the postulant life from a good friend who tried it out for about 6 months I was glad that I had never gone. I wouldn’t have lasted a week. I was upset when I read the oath Cardinals take - Jesus and God are barely mentioned. Absolute unquestioning obedience to a human being, a man - the Pope - was the heart of the oath. I believe that priests and deacons take similar oaths to their bishop - a man.
DeleteI wanted to be a nun in the worst way until I was about 13. Specifically a hermit. Kinda hard cuz I wasn't Catholic. About age 14 hormones blew that up. I do see marriage as a kind of monastery that requires vows, discipline, and obedience to an ideal (NOT the patriarchy) that runs counter to certain biological urges and temptations. I just can't buy the Hallmark-y romance or happy family claptrap. I'm a better person for my marriage and kid. But Christ knows the effort it takes!
DeleteOh yeah, it requires a bunch of effort. But life is like that, to do anything worthwhile is a heavy lift at times. The only time it looks Hallmark-y is if you can get everybody to stand still and smile long enough for pictures. And not throw turkey dressing at each other on Thanksgiving.
DeleteI like the monastery metaphor.
People praise priests for their sacrifice of giving up marriage and family. But being married and a parent involves great sacrifices, and in some ways, may be a more difficult vocation than the priesthood. The biggest challenges these days for priests seems to be loneliness. But in the days when several priests shared living quarters without the choice of selecting their own housemates, I imagine a different set of challenges could arise. For some married people, at least those who are introverts as I am, the challenge was frequently not getting enough alone time. The notion of living in a hermitage sounded really good at times. In my old age I am very grateful to still be living with a partner I’ve loved for 56 years now, in spite of the occasional rocky times in our family life. Now we are grateful for every new day even though they too often bring a new health scare. Old priests and nuns are usually cared for until they die - they don’t have the same financial worries that others have in old age. Those who didn’t take vows of poverty often have pretty good private resources too. The women are always cared for by their community when old and frail. The parishes around here all have retired priests living in the priests homes. They usually help out on Sundays or hearing confessions or whatever they feel up to. Several parishes around here have Assisted living facilities on the parish grounds owned and operated by the Archdiocese, so the retired priests might be moved there if they reach a stage where they can’t be fairly independent in the priests’ house.
DeleteA lot of elderly people find marriage gets easier as the pressure of kids and work eases. Others find retirement and being thrown together 24/7 can be an awful shock. My auntie told me about her friend whose husband got up every day during retirement and asked, "What are we going to do today?" I wonder if they've found his body yet ...
DeleteOur first RCC priest used to give a little sermon every year about vocations. He said it was a good life and he felt privileged to be part of so many people's lives. He would tell a couple of stories about his career and offered to talk to families if one if the boys had a calling. He was ordained fairly late, 30 or 35, if I recall, after serving in the military.
When my husband finally retired at 72 ( I was 65 and still working, but from my home office) and was home all the time it took me quite a while to adjust to it. After the kids were gone I had lots of quiet time and the freedom control my day. Once my husband was home all day too it was very different, and it was a bit of a shock for the first year or two.
DeleteYes, it takes a lot of jockeying to get the retirement balance right, and whatever routine works takes constant tweaking as cognition and mobility deteriorate. I find keeping a stupid gratitude prayer journal necessary. No one will ever accuse me of being Little Mary Sunshine, but if you are constantly focused on challenges and problems, the anxiety builds up and you lose the will to go on.
DeleteSomething most priests seem to find rewarding is ministry to the sick and dying. We went to a funeral Wednesday for the husband of one of my friends. He had been in a health spiral since midsummer. At first it didn't seem life threatening, but things cascaded. His wife is Catholic; he would be what I would call a fellow traveler. He went to church with her often, but had never joined. He was baptized as an infant in a Protestant church, but didn't belong to any church as an adult. He had mentioned doing OCIA this fall, but his health prevented that. Anyway he ended up on hospice. His wife asked him if he would like to talk to a priest, and he said he would. So one of the associate priests came to their home and visited with him. He received Penance, Confirmation, Viaticum, and Anointing of the Sick that day. And died peacefully not long after. He could have had a Catholic funeral even if he hadn't joined because of his wife, but I think they cranked it up a notch for him; two priests and a deacon with servers and a lot of incense, and a choir..
DeleteThe priest who administered the last sacraments to him was thirty-something, and had been on medical leave himself earlier in the year. He was still getting back in the swing of things. I think it gave him a boost to have been able to help someone find peace in their last days.
I was faithful about my gratitude journal for the first year after my husband’s fall. It was really hard at times to find a single thing to be grateful for that wasn’t the same as all the days preceding - that he was still alive and getting good medical care. I thanked God for the same things and people every single night, including all of you here.Reading this blog helped me get through each day way more than I can explain.
Delete“ but if you are constantly focused on challenges and problems, the anxiety builds up and you lose the will to go on.”.
Yes. I still often have to force myself to get through each day, when the only thing I want to do is sleep and put everything out of my mind. I pray to God every morning to please just help me get through one more day. Perhaps God listens and answers. I don’t feel Gods presence. But so far I have been able to get through each day, one day at a time.
My sister in law, a trumper, but a trump relative I am still fond of, just found out that she has breast cancer. At first it didn’t look too scary, but additional scans revealed a second tumor - 7cm, which is huge. If it’s malignant it’s Stage 3 at least. She hasn’t had that biopsy yet. So, if you’re so inclined, prayers for Linda would be welcome.
The daughter of one of my best friends, an atheist, was a hospital chaplain for years. The daughter is a Quaker and she found being a hospital chaplain to be very rewarding for many years - until Covid. She burned out, and now does IT work. It’s sad because she was a very kind and understanding person and I’m sure she was a wonderful chaplain.
DeleteAnne, sending prayers for your sister in law. I hope the biopsy turns out not to be cancer.
DeleteI'm sure being a hospital chaplain through the pandemic would have been overwhelming.
I don't feel God's presence as the cuddles and lullabies the evangelicals hammer about. But I am able to get up and deal beyond my natural grudging inclinations, so I must be tapped into something.
DeleteVery sorry to hear about your SIL.
hammer = yammer
Delete"There are several priests in our archdiocese whose dads are permanent deacons. Don't know if that's a thing elsewhere."
DeleteI've heard of this, too, although I don't think I know any examples. One of my deacon classmates had a son in seminary, but I think he stepped out of it prior to ordination.
Another thing - probably a bigger thing - are permanent deacons who were once seminarians. Of course, there are quite a few former seminarians in the church, many of whom presumably left in order to get married (or at least out of a desire to be married, even if they weren't already on the verge of marriage). But the desire to serve that brought them to the seminary, seemingly found a different clerical outlook, later in life.
Happy Halloween. I read or listen to this every year.
ReplyDeleteInteresting backstory: Hawthorne's was descended from Judge Hathorne, one of the presidents at the Salem witch trials. He was the only judge never to repent over the convictions that sent people to the gallows. Hawthorne was so ashamed of him that he changed the spelling of his name. A lot of his stories explored the nature and excesses of American Puritanism.
https://youtu.be/SPhQCJ6waLI?si=xEN5_iB8dLjsaq-0
That's a creepy one!
DeleteI liked The House of Seven Gables when I read it as a teenager. Tried to re-read it later but found it a lot darker than I remembered. But I thought it was cool that we actually lived in an old house with seven gables in the 90s.
Happy All Saints Day to all. I confess that until Jean started telling us about saints I had paid little attention to them, except for St Francis of Assisi. Our sons went to a Catholic, all boys elementary, 1st-8th. Writing was incorporated into every class, including math and art. When our youngest was in 5th grade the religion teacher gave a writing assignment to the class. Each boy had to write a short paper about the saint honored on his birthday. Our son was born on today’s date, 41 years ago. He asked his teacher if he had to write about all the saints since his birthday is All Saints Day or could he just pick one. I was always grateful that he was born on All Saints Day and not on Halloween.
ReplyDeleteHappy birthday to your son! My favorite Anglican hymn for All Saints.
Deletehttps://youtu.be/tFIy-iUZKhU?si=WVeHfOKq38rPaIpD
I love Halloween because it is the only time I get to see and interact with children.
Jean, I love the hymn! I have heard the tune before but didn't know the words. I am hoping we will sing For All the Saints this weekend. Another good one is from the Mormon tradition, Come, Come Ye Saints.
DeleteThere actually are a couple of saints listed for Oct. 31, St. Quentin and St. Wolfgang. Quentin was a martyr and Wolfgang was a bishop.
I have a great-nephew who was born on Halloween. I think the kid loves it that he can wear a costume on his birthday.
My BFF in kindergarten had a Halloween birthday. I was so jealous! I will have to read about SS Quentin and Wolfgang now.
DeleteJean, that is one of my favorites too. It’s in my instructions for my burial in the green cemetery at the Abbey if I’m still living n this area when I depart this mortal realm.. I actually first heard it at the very sad funeral of an English friend who died at age 41, leaving a husband and 4 children.The youngest was only 3 then. She was a wonderful, good woman. A saint of God.
DeleteJean, thanks for that link. I had not heard that hymn before.
DeleteKatherine, FWIW, we celebrated All Saints Day with a mass this morning (Saturday morning). It isn't a holy day of obligation because it falls on a Sunday, but attendance wasn't too bad - more than at a daily mass, less than at a Sunday mass. Maybe 100 folks.
Starting tonight (Saturday night), we move on to All Souls Day, and that will be the feast celebrated at all the Sunday masses. Tonight, they read the names of all the parishioners who died during the past year. I didn't attend that mass, but I have attended it during prior years. It's quite moving.
There was a little confusion here about whether the Mass this evening was going to count for one's Sunday obligation since the readings were for All Saints, and the ones tomorrow are for All Souls. But apparently it does count. We had a full house this evening. I'm glad the time changes this weekend, since this is my choir's Sunday to sing at our sister parish, St. Stanislaus. It gives us a little extra time to get over there by 8:15.
DeleteSome tidbits I learned about medieval/Church Latin this week from scholars in my Old English group. Lots of gaps in my knowledge, so just fun trivia, really:
ReplyDeleteThere were a variety of Latin dialects spoken around the Roman Empire as it began to collapse. The one that had the most influence in the Middle Ages was the common or Vulgate Latin St Jerome grew up speaking and used to translate the Bible.
Pronunciation of Latin varied widely by location. As long as everybody pronounced it the same way at Mass when they were chanting responses, that was all that mattered.
The ability to read, write, and understand Latin varied by locale. One scholar told me that speakers of non-Romance languages were the least familiar with Latin, were more careful, and made fewer errors in their manuscripts. Bede's Latin is considered very good.
There was no regularized Latin spelling. Scribes spelled everything phonetically using vernacular alphabets. Punctuation was rudimentary.
Christian concepts required new Latin words or new meanings of old Latin words. I wish I had examples.
Scribes often transcribed Latin texts by dictation rather than copying from another book. This method led to many errors because a tired monk or nun might not hear a word properly or might leave out words. There was a process of copy editing, but it wasn't foolproof.
The English were taught Latin by the Irish missionaries, who, in turn, had brought back Latin grammars and texts from Gaul. The Irish had a quite rigorous scholastic tradition and many books.
Irish missionaries in England emphasized the importance of religious instruction in the vernacular. There is a story about St Aidan who would sit outside his little hut with his Bible on his lap. People passing by had never seen a book and would ask about it. St Aidan would explain that it contained stories and he would translate a parable or two for them from Latin to English. Never underestimate the influence of a guy with some good new stories!
The rise of medieval universities, which attracted scholars from all over western Christendom and required scholars to speak and write in Latin, helped stabilize Church Latin and regularized pronunciation.
Latin was used in the Church for centuries because it provided a lingua franca to communicate the faith to those who would catechize the laity. The use of Latin would, basically, make sure catechists understood the faith the same way and reduce heresies.
Does offering the Mass in Latin now do anything to facilitate catechesis? Does it bring people together? Does it deepen anyone's Catholic identity? Is it unifying? Those are questions Catholics might want to consider as they ponder offering Latin Masses.
Jean, thank you so much for this summary. It’s fascinating to know this history, at least to me. When I was young and had studied Latin for four years I was a bit overly proud of my abilities in Latin. I won the awards - the big fish in a very small Latin tank. I think there were about eight of us who took Latin for all four years. Only two of us were Catholic. The only other language available was Spanish. The moms of the Protestant kids in the class wanted them to learn Latin to help them with their college applications and SAT tests. The Latin kids were all on the “college track”. Our community was a resort area for richer folk, but the permanent residents were mostly working class.
DeleteI went to public schools after 4th grade, in a community where Catholics were relatively scarce. So Latin was a sort of mysterious language, exotic, and even a bit “cool”. Since I was definitely not “cool”, I held on to the one cool thing about me.
Right now, Latin may bring together the Catholics who reject Vatican II and disliked Pope Francis, who mostly want to go back to the golden 1950s - an era they really know nothing about. Life was not great for many, especially not for minorities and women. But the Latin mass is polarizing. The Latin mass fans—based on articles I’ve read and their online comments— have not been well catechized on the reasons for, and theological understandings , of Vatican II. They are not taught the documents of Vatican II. Basically, it’s a cult. It’s not a personality cult like MAGA, but a religious cult based on an attraction to “ the good old days”. The Latin really sets them apart from a popular culture they reject.
Ironically, English is now the world’s lingua francs, used in global business and required in most educational systems that are not in English language nations. Graduate programs all over the world are offered in English as well as in the native language of the country’s university’s. Thus one younger generation relative was able to do his PhD studies in some esoteric scientific field in Finland! Where he met his wife, who was Austrian. Many young Americans now do their grad sties overseas because the costs are a fraction of what they are even in state universities in the US. Our own son did two masters in two years in England for the same cost as a single Masters here. Many decide to stay overseas for their careers, creating something of a brain drain, as our young relative did after Finland. He taught in Scotland. Our son ended up in Australia, married to a European wife whom he met in England, now in the US, but planning to move permanently to France.
Franca. Not francs. But, after Latin went out of style, and before recent years when English became the must-know language of the world’s educated classes, French was the lingua Franca. Francs are no longer used as currency in France.🤪
DeleteI agree with Anne that the post-Vatican II history of using Latin or the vernacular in worship is wrapped up with the history of the Council itself, and how readily it was received/accepted by us, the people of God.
DeleteBut I think we also have to be open to the possibility that we're entering (or have already entered) a new era now, in which Vatican II is no more contemporary to younger adults than Vatican I or Trent was to us, and the old disagreements and divisions have lost their currency. While I agree that there is still something counter-cultural about choosing to belong to a Latin Mass community, I am suggesting that what is being rejected is the implementation of the Council. We're past the Council now.
What is being rejected is something else, and in a sense something larger: the acceptance by Christians of the larger human culture - or vast swaths of it - in which the church is situated.
I would guess that this notion that the cultural context of our lives is shifting beneath our feet, isn't foreign to any of us. In some ways, the world is a better place now than it was in the post-Conciliar world. But in some ways, it has gotten worse, and seems to be regressing.
The "fit" between the church and the world never has been perfect and comfortable. The spirit of Vatican II, at least in my judgment (for whatever that's worth) is remarkably optimistic about the world, and about the possibility of the church leavening it further. Personally, I think the pendulum has swung back from optimism to pessimism. Perhaps that's not entirely due to changes in the world; the church itself is different, too - and almost certainly less culturally consequential than it was in the 1960s.
These are just my tentative thoughts in trying to understand the appeal of belonging to a Latin Mass community.
I wrote, " I am suggesting that what is being rejected is the implementation of the Council." I missed the key word in that sentence: "...not..." It should read: " I am suggesting that what is being rejected is not the implementation of the Council." I think we're past the era of Conciliar reception. I think the world has moved on, and perhaps the church has, too.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteWhat it looks like to me is that conservative Catholics see the Latin Mass as a kind of totem whose powers only they, the super faithful, can harness. It looks like regression to a belief in magic and superstition. I can see in these very dark days why frightened people find assurances in such things.
DeleteSimilar things occurred during other stressful times in history. I'm thinking of Jewish persecutions, an increase in veneration of relics, and the appearance of flagellantes and other forms of extreme penance that arose as responses to the Black Death.
If Catholics want to preserve and use the Latin Mass to strengthen their Catholic identity in order to shine Christ's light in the world, that's great.
But it looks to me like the Latin Mass is being used to speak only to a limited number of elites who want to turn off the lights and bar the doors so the wicked world can't get in.
I think what Pope Leo is trying to do is dial back the polarization. I hope it can be done, but I don't know if it is possible. If the Latin Mass could be just another flavor of Catholicism and not a cultural/political statement it would be good.
DeleteJim, you are probably right that "...we're past the era of Conciliar reception." That has to do with the fact that we are nearly past the era of living memory of the Council. Hate to say that because that really ages me.
"conservative Catholics see the Latin Mass as a kind of totem whose powers only they, the super faithful, can harness. It looks like regression to a belief in magic and superstition. I can see in these very dark days why frightened people find assurances in such things."
DeleteI do think there is something to this. Latin Mass adherents have long claimed that there is something about Latin that makes it a more fitting and sacred linguistic medium for praising God than English. It's not a completely fantastic notion, because we see similar practices in the Eastern Church and in Judaism, both of which also utilize ancient languages which are "dead" for vernacular usage but preserved for worship.
There is also an aethetic claim that Latin is more mellifluous than English. This is especially held to be so when the texts are chanted or sung in polyphony. I'm not as sensitive to this sort of thing as some other people are, and I'm really not sure it's true: is "Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi" more mellifluous than "Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world,"? Maybe marginally so?
I also understand that this business of preferring Latin to English was drilled into Catholics in the pre-Vatican II days, when the tension between Catholics and Protestants that had existed since the Reformation was more of an everyday reality than has been the case since the 2nd Vatican Council. English was what the Protestants used.
Delete(For a while, the Reformation relationship was replaced by an era of ecumenicism; I'm not sure that era still exists, either - one more reason to question whether we're still really in the post-Conciliar period.)
"English was what the Protestants used."
DeleteYes. I think some American Catholics are struggling to understand what differentiates them from mainstream American Protestants. That seems to beg better catechesis, no?
Above, I think someone wondered whether (or maybe even stated that) I am attracted to the Latin Mass. I have no desire to join a Latin Mass community; I've devoted a fair chunk of my ministry in trying to help our parish celebrate the post-Vatican II mass to the best of our little local abilities. I'm still doing this.
ReplyDeleteIf our parish happened to have a Latin Mass group, I'd like to think I'd try to work with them to build peace, rather than the alternatives (trying to relegate them to the margins; or trying to help them take over the parish).
On the handful of occasions I've attended a Latin Mass as an adult, I've seen and felt the attraction - I can see why some people might want to become a member of such a community. But it's not for me.
I know there are people for whom Latin is seen to have special powers as the language to pray to God. But I think to people of my parents' age it was more seen as something universal that bound the church together. The post Vatican II Mass can still be celebrated in Latin, and I think it is sometimes in Rome. I don't know if it was the case in the days when all priests had to study Latin that a Chinese cardinal could communicate with an Italian one? But I don't think the present Latin Mass enthusiasts are interested in a so-called Novus Ordo Mass in Latin.
DeleteEven though I have good memories of the Latin Mass of my childhood, I'd be very reluctant to take part in what seems to be a separatist movement.
For what it's worth, I think ecumenism is still alive, just not with people who are more interested in cultural wars.
DeleteFrom what I glean from comments online, the Latin mass fans don’t actually try to learn Latin. They memorize a few prayers like Agnus Dei and a few responses like Et cum spiritu tuo. They use bilingual missals as I did growing up.
DeleteBlessed All Souls to everyone.
ReplyDelete"The souls of the righteous are in the hand of God, and no torment will ever touch them." Wisdom 3:1
Thanks Jean. I love that Wisdom reading. We had it for the funerals of both my parents.
DeleteIt was the first verse of today's first reading, too.
DeleteCatholics and Episcopalians on the same page today, I guess. Lit my candles. Said my prayers of thanks for those I miss. Asked God to give them peace. Lots of former teachers came to mind today.
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