Wednesday, May 3, 2023

Getting married in the Cathollic church

 Two articles this week caught my attention.  As is well known, marriages in the church have plummeted in the last 25 years.  As a result, so have infant baptisms, and also adults received into the church via RCIA.  Since most converts become Catholic to please a spouse, this drop isn't anymore surprising than is the fall in the numbers of baptized infants.  In my reading during recent years, and because my children and their friends, and my Catholic friends' children, have married during this same time period, I have noted the trends.   The church has created a lot of hoops for young couples to get through before they will allow them to marry in the church. The costs of a church wedding have soared in some places, and the restrictions have tightened.

 I am personally aware of a number of Catholic couples who decided that they would go elsewhere, including to more welcoming Protestant churches.  Some marriage prep makes sense, but a lot of it doesn't.  From reading this article at NCRonline, it seems the situation has almost reached a ludicrous level of nonsense. I've never heard of witness affadavits before.  When did that start?  My middle son and his wife married in the church 10 years ago - the most recent Catholic wedding I've been to. They had to go through a lot of hoops, but not as bad as this. And a whole lot more hoops when they had their children baptized.

https://www.ncronline.org/opinion/guest-voices/marriage-prep-ministries-should-trust-engaged-couples

The years I was engaged brought the most change my family had experienced in at least a decade. Loss, job changes, moves, retirements, medical diagnoses: All this, and we weren't even married yet! 

But the straw that broke the camel's back came from an unlikely place: witness affidavit interviews. Witness affidavits are forms containing interview questions to be asked of two people who can attest to each partner's freedom and fitness to marry as well as their sacramental history. For some reason, my now-husband and I were told ours had to be completed in person (during the pandemic) by either our parents or godparents. For two people whose parents, godparents and friends are for the most part not local, not practicing, not present or not alive, this was exceedingly challenging. We had to schedule an extra trip across the country, scrounge up trustworthy witnesses and catechize them as to the reason for the interviews. Our paperwork was set back by months. 

What's worse, my husband not being Catholic led to rigorous questioning. My mother-in-law was asked multiple times to prove how she knew my husband and for how long —  "Well, I gave birth to him?" When it came time to discuss my husband's baptism, she attested to its Trinitarian form. She was again subjected to repeated questioning, as the deacon was suspicious of the authenticity of her testimony as merely a witness to the ceremony. My father-in-law, who performed the baptism, had died three years before our engagement. 

In the context of our family's many changes, this could all seem like a very small straw. Yet it highlighted a lack of trust and pastoral sensitivity that nearly ruined our sense of belonging.

Then there is the issue of where couples wish to exchange vows.  Many prefer non-church  sites, often outdoors.  But that has always been a No-No, for no discernibly valid reasons.  This is important also because since at least half of all Catholics now marry someone who isn't Catholic, the church has (unwisely) decided that there should be no eucharist during the wedding ceremony, even in a church.  They seem to be going overboard to push young couples as far away from the church as they can.

But it seems Baltimore (Baltimore!   Lori!!) might be wising up a bit as far as where people have their marriage ceremony.  I know that Jim is not a fan of non-church weddings, especially outdoor weddings. But apparently loosening that restriction is helping to slow the exodus of young couples in Baltimore at least a tiny bit, keeping a connection, even if hanging by a slim thread. 

 https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2023/05/02/outdoor-catholic-wedding-245195

In 2018, the Archdiocese of Baltimore announced that it would launch a three-year trial period that permitted Catholics who wished to hold a wedding ceremony outdoors or in secular spaces to keep their special day sacred. Previously, like in most U.S. dioceses, Catholic weddings in Baltimore could usually only take place in churches and chapels. With changing attitudes toward religion, and the popularity of outdoor ceremonies growing, that meant fewer Catholic weddings.

The Rev. Steven Hook was one of a handful of priests in the archdiocese who initially pushed for the change. He told America that he had noticed the increasing numbers of young couples, even some with strong connections to the church, choosing to get married outside the institution.

“The younger generation is disenfranchised, or disconnected,” Father Hook said.

Weddings historically had served as an opportunity to “evangelize and re-engage” young couples, he added, but that chance was being lost when brides and grooms bypassed the church altogether when planning their ceremony.

Father Hook said he had heard of couples who were not opposed to a Catholic wedding but who preferred to exchange vows outdoors, perhaps along the nearby Chesapeake Bay, at a beloved family home or even in the same venue that would host the reception. He felt the church was losing an opportunity to engage with these couples.

“They never even called the church to inquire,” he noticed.

Data backed up Father Hook’s observations.

 More than 425,000 couples married in the church in 1969. By 2014, even though the population of Catholics had increased significantly, that number was down to about 148,000. During the first year of the pandemic, it fell further, to under 100,000.




56 comments:

  1. Marriage prep seems to be quite a mixed bag, and I suspect a lot has to do with the deacon and wife running it.

    Doesn't surprise me at all that written proof of things is required. I had to write away for a baptismal certificate from the Episcopal Church and show our marriage license in RCIA. Church lady #1 was leaning toward proof that I had informed my parents that I was converting (I was 46), but Church Lady #2 said that only applied to permission needed by the parents of minors.

    We were married in a civil service and were sternly advised by both Church Ladies to have the marriage blessed after Raber converted, but we never did because the priest always did it at Saturday night Mass, and everybody griped because it lengthened the service.

    I might think that marriage and RCIA are lengthy and joyless legal requirements if practiced by joyless and legalistic people. But not much different from those required by the state that you get a blood test, watch the STD film strip, pay $25 for a license, and scare up a qualified person to say the legally required formula.

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    1. I don't know if all states even require a blood test anymore. Ours did when we got married. My memory of that is that when K came to pick me up to get our blood tests, my brothers were on the roof helping to shingle it. They were calling out things like, "Good luck! Hope you studied hard!" Gotta love 'em, you can choose your husband but not your family.

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    2. Interesting. Michigan is VERY different from here. There were no blood tests, STD films, etc in order to get our marriage license way back in 1972. I didn’t even go with my husband when he picked it up. I think I had to sign the application though. There was a small fee too I think. We did have a Catholic Church wedding with Eucharist (and my Protestant husband was invited by the pastor to receive communion). He did produce a baptism certificate that his mother had saved, fortunately. He was baptized in the Presbyterian church, but his parents changed to a Congregational ( now UCC) church when he was a kid. Mainline Protestants do use the “proper” trinitarian baptismal wording so he passed muster. (If someone marries a committed atheist does the RCC deny the couple a Catholic wedding since one person isn’t baptized? Probably not, since I know some Catholic- Jewish couples that I think had Catholic weddings. But I’m not absolutely sure. So some written proof was asked for. Reasonable requirements. But nothing like witness statements! I can certainly understand why this young couple felt like they were suspected of some kind of nefarious activity at worst, or of lying at least. When our son was married in a Catholic liturgy in the chapel of a convent in California, he did have to get his baptismal and confirmation records from our former parish. The parish sent them to the archdiocese for validation. The archdiocese then sent them to the San Jose diocese. Ok. Reasonable. They had to go through some kind of marriage prep but I think they may have lied about their living together. The young Catholic couples were being advised by their friends not to use the same address when going to a church for marriage prep. They were lining in New York City then, but married in California where her family lives.And where they live now.

      We had three marriage prep conversations with a priest. The first was with the pastor (who officiated at the wedding). Two were conversations with thé young associate pastor. We did not have to pledge to not use birth control. We were not forced into NFP classes nor a weekend retreat. None of the stuff young couples are now forced to do in order to have a Catholic wedding. Our wedding was less than three months after we first contacted the parish. (And guess what - we’ve made it 50 years!) Years later an Episcopal priest told me that she had been the officiant at the church marriage of thé young priest who did our marriage prep. He left the priesthood (don’t know if he was officially laicized or not) and the Catholic Church. He and his wife became active members of the EC parish.

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    3. The STD films were added in the 1980s with the spread of herpes and AIDS. The syphilis/gonorrhea tests and physical exams (to make sure we appeared to have fully functioning parts) have always been required six weeks (?) before the service. We and the officiant had to sign the license at the site of the wedding, and he turned it in to the state, which issued the certificate. At least that's what I recall.

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    4. Who required the STD films? The state? And are you serious - you had to have physical exams?? Who required that? I’ve never heard of that before. Awful. Of course the royals in England did require poor Princess Diana to undergo a physical like that. Probably the prince’s wife too since she would be expected to produce some heirs to the kingdom. I wonder if Charles and William had to prove their reproductive abilities.

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    5. The state required it. Why awful? They weren't doing virginity tests. I didn't see it as invasive then or now. It's in the public interest that married couples be disease free before marriage and have a doctor to answer questions about birth control. Requiring the tests before the service effectively imposes a waiting period and time for an infected person to get treated. People who don't want to wait can always run off to Indiana.

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    6. Looks like Michigan has changed some rules. Three day waiting period, no blood tests. Big mistake given tgat the state's rate of syphilis infection is sky high. Not sure if they make you watch the STD thing at time of license application. I could ask The Boy what he and his ex had to do, but I hate referring to that sad mess.

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    7. Jean, I never heard of a state requirement for physical exams. What were they looking for? The once required blood tests would show syphilis. I don’t think my older sister needed even a blood test when she got married in California, but I was 13 then and maybe the adults were shielding me from even knowing STDs existed. I didn’t learn that some people are homosexual until I was 16. No physicals in the three DC jurisdictions either since I’ve lived here. If they had required blood tests at some point they were gone by the time we got married.

      physical exams (to make sure we appeared to have fully functioning parts)

      Frankly it seems like government overreach to have required physicals to determine if all the parts were functioning for marriage. The RCC can be pretty hard nosed and refuse marriage to a couple if it is known that one of them can’t physically consummate a marriage - usually the man, because of some kind of severe trauma or illness that prevents intercourse. The RCC still is under the illusion that sex is only justified by reproduction, and so marriage is all about having legal sex. And babies. They still don’t seem to understand that it’s really all about love. So they sometimes have refused to let a couple marry in the church if it’s known that their reproductive parts aren’t functioning.

      No wonder so many people ran off to Vegas to get married in those days.

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    8. In Illinois, they had stopped the blood tests. But then they had reinstated them when we applied for our marriage license in 1988, as that was during the HIV scare. Then, at some point after we were married, they stopped them again.

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    9. Geez, it was just a general physical, not a big deal. I had the doc do the Pap at the same time to kill two birds with one stone.

      He congratulated us and asked if we had any family planning questions.

      Nothing wrong with getting a clean bill of health.

      I don't see how it is government overreach any more than requiring childhood vaccinations or quarantining people during an epidemic if they get sick.

      Odd thing: Both the doctor and officiant asked me privately if I was entering into marriage of my own free will without coercion. I don't know if that is standard practice, just something unique to them, or if I looked hesitant. I was very stressed on the day of the wedding about my parents getting snockered, and he probably read that as reluctance.

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  2. I think Jean is right that marriage prep is a mixed bag, depending on where you are. Couples can shop around. I think most of them do. I know my older son and DIL did. They got married at St. John's on the Creighton campus. They joined the parish to be able to have the wedding there, which was fine with them. One thing they wanted was a staff that was willing to answer questions and engage with them since DIL was a recent convert. It isn't that hard, really. Marriage prep just needs to be friendly and accepting, and don't treat people like they are applying for a loan. With the younger son it didn't come up, since they got married in the parish where his wife grew up, and they already had the information they needed. K participated in both weddings. One was in a different diocese and he had to get permission for that.
    I thought both articles that Anne cited were good. People and clergy doing marriage prep really need to read the first one and find out how not to turn people off and discourage them from marrying in the church. It isn't rocket science.
    I glad some places are allowing outdoor weddings. Weather could be an iffy thing, best to have a back-up plan. I think it isn't a problem to preserve the sacred character outdoors, it's part of creation.

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    1. It’s likely that the staff at a Jesuit college parish would be a lot more savvy about how to treat young couples than in the average parish these days that are run by retro priests in cassocks and church ladies. It may not be rocket science, but they do seem to be driving young couples away in droves.

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  3. The Church takes the fun out of getting married like my physics professors took the fun out of physics. Never getting married is the most effective way to stay in the Church's graces. My friend's ex-wife got her annulment. But, if HE wants to remarry, he has to get permission from the Patterson Diocese Tribunal. If the diocese needs men to talk men out of marriage, he's the guy for the job. Always willing to share his nightmare divorce story and let them know "It can happen to you."
    Even though the Catholic population is up, fewer people per capita want to get married or are even in relationships. When anyone asks me would I ever marry, I say, "Marriage is for gays."

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    1. Thank you for the laugh of the day, though I am very sorry for your friend.

      I saw a couple Catholic girlfriends from the old 'hood yesterday. One was wondering what her life would have been like if she hadn't got married. I said she would now be wondering what life would be if she HAD got married.

      Her sister opined that "after people get married they live with their mistakes."

      It was a fun afternoon!

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    2. The grass is always greener in the alternate universe. Or maybe not.

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  4. I'm curious, Anne, what do you see as a better way to do marriage prep in the Church? My sense is that clergy used to be able to make certain assumptions about catechesis in the olden days. Not so much now.

    I recently wrote to the local priest as I was making my funeral arrangements. I knew I could count on him to give me the most "correct" answers to questions about the Last Rites, funeral services, disposition of ashes, burial in consecrated ground, and Masses for the repose of the soul. I didn't want to be asking Raber to do things for my fallen away carcass that might not be allowed by the Church. It was very helpful, if not warm, fuzzy, and pastoral. But I wasn't asking for or expecting that.

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  5. At least it isn't like it was when my grandparents got married. Grandpa was a Lutheran. They got married in the sacristy. At that time a dispensation was required for a mixed marriage. The reason the priest gave for the dispensation was "the advanced age of the bride". She was 28.
    My parents at least got married inside the church, but standing outside the Communion rail. Mom hadn't converted yet. It's a wonder any of them stayed practicing Catholics, but they did.

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    1. Thankfully by the time my husband and I got married we weren’t treated as inferior Christian’s and had a full nuptial mass. I’m not sure if I would have wanted to be married in the Catholic Church if we had been treated the way your grandparents and others in even a slightly older age group than mine were treated ( as was a good friend of my older sister, married in 1959) we might have married in my husbands family’s church. Your grandparents were treated as if they were doing something shameful, something that should be hidden. Awful. And now the RCC seems to be going back to those dark ages.

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    2. I don't think they're making anybody get married in the sacristy now! My grandma said she didn't hold it against the priest, because he didn't make the rules. She quoted him as saying, "I'm not going to give you a hard time about it, Martin (my grandpa) is a fine fellow. Besides, you might not get another chance at marriage." She could laugh about that, not sure I could have!

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    3. Maybe the marriage doesn’t have to be in the sacristy with minimal witnesses, but they now refuse to have a nuptial mass for couples who aren’t both baptized Catholics. Still second class by RCC standards.

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    4. I hadn't heard that they couldn't have a nuptial Mass for couples who weren't both Catholics. Could that be a rule in some parishes or dioceses, but not in others?

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    5. Katherine, it may be a local thing. I know couples who were told that they could marry in the church with a priest and readings etc, but no Eucharist. So not a nuptial mass.

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    6. " I know couples who were told that they could marry in the church with a priest and readings etc, but no Eucharist. So not a nuptial mass."

      That is not church law. A Catholic can marry a Protestant, and the ceremony can be a mass. As at any mass, only those who are in full communion with the Catholic church should receive communion. Because this can create awkwardness when literally half the church shouldn't be receiving communion, many parishes adopt, as a pastoral practice, that marriages between Catholics and non-Catholics would "default" to being a wedding outside of mass. But if the couple requests a mass and are willing to inform the families about the communion rules, their wishes should be accommodated. That's what happens at our parish and many other parishes.

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    7. It seems that if there is no communion, then it’s a religious marriage ceremony, not a mass. So if they prefer to get married in a museum, or on a beach, or in a park or wherever, then there should be no obstacles to doing so. The couple confers the sacrament on one another. They can have hymns and readings and prayers and blessings. So the church building really isn’t needed and becomes even more dispensable.

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  6. Yes, the witness affidavits are standard. Primarily, they're meant to ensure that neither party already is married (in the eyes of the church). As with so many other aspects of pastoral ministry, it makes all the difference whether the priest or deacon doing the affidavit form has the pastoral knack. Seems that deacon in the post didn't have the knack. People like that do a lot of damage. One wonders who they are trying to impress.

    I may have written something here or somewhere indicating that I don't approve of outdoor weddings, but it's not true: I'd love it if I could be the minister at an outdoor Catholic wedding. But as noted, it's not really done in the Catholic church. I'm excited about that Baltimore experiment. I hope it leads to a change in canon law. I've had to regretfully tell couples that I couldn't do their wedding in a historic library, or the lobby of the building where they met. If people want to have a Catholic wedding in Disney World (and apparently, many do) it would be wonderful if the church would cooperate.

    Yes, a Catholic and an atheist could get married in a Catholic church. There are procedures which envision all these permutations / combinations. In part, it would depend on whether the atheist was originally baptized Catholic, baptized into another denomination, or was never a baptized Christian.

    If a person who was raised Catholic but isn't really very committed to Catholicism these days wants to marry a non-Catholic, I think the church should ask itself how critical it is that they have a Catholic wedding. Perhaps the course of wisdom is to recognize the validity of a secular marriage and then, if the opportunity arises, work with the couple to get them more engaged with/attached to the Catholic church.

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    1. Gosh, Jim, that sounds like you think the church should both be flexible and use common sense.

      How come there now have to be witnesses to swear that someone hadn’t been married previously? That was never a requirement until…..when? Not even when my son was married 10 years ago. Is it required that the witnesses have known the individuals throughout their entire lives? Do the witnesses have to be practicing Catholic? Or Catholic at all? It sounds like they are forcing the engaged couples through an annulment tribunal. No wonder so many decide a Catholic wedding isn’t worth the hassle. Since the couple confer the sacrament on one another anyway, maybe the whole priest officiating in a church should just be done away with.He’s only a witness and signs the paperwork and others can do that. It seems like the smaller but purer church advocates are doing everything they can to make sure that the non “ authentic”, not “ true” Catholics are persuaded to leave so they can revel in their orthodox purity.

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    2. Essentially the church is telling these young couples that they are probably liars and they have to prove that they are telling the truth by getting witness statements. This is so incredibly insulting.

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    3. Well insulting in one way. But in the days before records were online there were instances where people were leading double lives, and it was usually the women who got hurt. Kind of horse-and-buggy rules in the space age now.
      I can remember when they used to "post the banns" for three Sundays prior to the wedding. In Protestant weddings it used to be the custom to say that "if anyone can show just cause why this couple should not marry, they should speak now or forever hold their peace." I remember that dramatic scene in Jane Eyre when someone spoke out at that moment.

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    4. Jim, my son was baptized in a parish here. The parish sent the paperwork to the archdiocese which sent them to California. But of course he might have still been secretly married and a bigamist. Or divorced. Witnesses might not know even if they had known him since infancy. Kids grow up and move away. He spent about two years living in three different Asian countries. Maybe he could have married there, but nobody here would necessarily know. A good friend of my husband’s shocked his family and friends after working in an Asian country for a year. He returned to the US with a wife and her four kids. He had never mentioned to anyone here that he had gotten married to a young widow with kids. He was raised some kind of Christian, not Catholic. They were married in a Muslim ceremony.

      Really, the assumption is guilty until proven innocent. The witness statements aren’t proof anyway. Why would anyone want to get married in a church that refuses to trust them to tell the truth?

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    5. City hall weddings don’t have many hoops these days. The RCC has way more than it did in 1972.

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    6. Another way to think of it is: Christianity is an all-in endeavor. You have to be willing to radically commit.

      Jim, are you aware of the fact that Christianity includes a billion or so people who aren’t Roman Catholic? And that they might be very committed christians who simply don’t accept all the claims (or rules) of Catholics? They are even trusted enough in their churches to not to have to produce witness statements from friends and family in order to marry?

      You are talking about Catholic rules - rules that are recent enough that I had never heard of them until reading the article at NCR which horrified me. Why the lack of trust? Because you haven’t known every couple from birth?

      It seems to me that everyone on this board has lived a very different kind of life than I have. What may be true of you all doesn’t apply to all Catholics. You all live in the same state where you were born. You have lived your lives within a couple of hours or less from where you were born. Katherine goes to the cemetery every year. Etc. I don’t even know the names of the cemeteries where my grandparents were buried, or even where my mostly absent throughout my life father is buried. Somewhere in LA but there are quite a few Catholic cemeteries in LA. Three grandparents died long before I was born. If I ever want to know where they are buried there is a database somewhere to look up that information.

      I know very few people who live in the city or town, or even the state, where they were born my husband was born in DC and does live only about 15 miles from where he grew up. He is a rarity in DC. The parishes where my widely scattered friends married did not know them or their families for years and years. But they were treated as adults. There were no assumptions that they lied about any previous marriages and they never were asked to get witness statements as if they were on trial as some kind of criminal. What a way to convince young adults to raise their children as Catholics!

      You are right that few people have a clue what they are committing to when they are confirmed or married. Obviously babies do not choose to be baptized. I have no idea at all what I may have committed to when I was confirmed. It was just something I was told that I had to do. I did not make our sons be confirmed. I told them it was their decision. Our pastor was very annoyed with me because of that. He wanted me to tell them to get confirmed or else. One son has never been confirmed. One was even though I discouraged him. He was in 8 th grade, in an independent all boys Catholic school, and everyone was getting confirmed ( in their own parishes). He didn’t want to be the odd man out. Plus it was a social occasion - there were girls in the two year program. The third son decided to be confirmed when he was 16. When my husband and I married we were both fully committed to our vows ( yes, he was fully committed too - even though he isn’t Catholic! Amazing.) however, as time went on I realized that very, very few people have any clue at all about marriage and its challenges on their wedding day. I frankly think that pretty much everyone who has married would qualify for an annulment because they had no clue. But the RCC makes escaping vocational commitments much easier for ordained priests and vowed religious. They have YEARS actually living the vocation before they have to make an absolute commitment. And even after their final vows, they can be released from them by going through some kind of official process. Like an annulment. But the church insists that married people have no time to live the vocation before final vows. Another double standard.
      So, if the church would look more “benignly” on secular marriages would that mean that those couples would be welcome at the common table also? Or would the church judge them as being fornicators - as it judges divorced and remarried people to be adulterers?

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    7. "I did not make our sons be confirmed. I told them it was their decision. Our pastor was very annoyed with me because of that. He wanted me to tell them to get confirmed or else. One son has never been confirmed. "

      I was the same way as a parent. One of my kids isn't confirmed, either.

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    8. "So, if the church would look more “benignly” on secular marriages would that mean that those couples would be welcome at the common table also? "

      Yes - if they let me make the rules, Catholics wouldn't be punished for marrying at city hall, and wouldn't have to get dispensations or permissions from the bishop. It wouldn't be a sacramental marriage, but it would be a perfectly valid marriage. And the Catholic in that marriage could receive communion in the Catholic church.

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    9. Maybe you should become the next head of the USCCB.

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  7. Re outdoor weddings: The previous priest before the current one at the local parish was making plans for a gazebo type thing that could accommodate small outdoor weddings. The current priest quashed that idea and is using the kickback from the diocesan appeal to rip up the carpeting and install wood floors (this will make acoustics worse, imo) and to buy a bigger (and bloodier) crucifix to replace the floating blond "risen Christ" on there now.

    The priests are really all over the map these days.

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  8. For starters, they need to treat young adults as adults. And they need to respect not Catholic partners. When we were getting married I was 25 and my husband was 32. Thé priests respected the reality that we were educated adults, supporting ourselves, living on our own without parental support, etc. Co- habitation was just beginning then, and my husband and I did not live together before marriage. But I can’t think of a single couple, Catholic or other, in my family, or my children’s friends, or the children of friends, who haven’t lived together before marriage. Most were around 30 or older when they married. Yet they are told to separate before the wedding. The church is way too hung up about sex between loving, committed, mature adults. So the couples often deceived or misled the church folk about that. I have friends who did live together before marriage, way back in the olden days (1970s).still happily married with 8 grandchildren. However, when we married, living separately so the subject never came up, the young priest dismissed us after two sessions, commenting that we were adults and knew what we were doing. He said the problems were mostly the starry eyed 20 year olds ( who apparently weren’t as mature as Katherine and her husband at that age).

    If they wish, they can go over traditional Catholic teachings but they should not make the couple effectively swear an oath to follow every single rule (like birth control). Don’t force them into NFP class- offer it, but no forced classes or retreats. Some of the psycho babble stuff that I hear about could be skipped. Don’t treat not-Catholic fiancés/fiancées as akin to heathens, as inferior people. ( some years after we married, my husband was somewhat offended by a couple of the church ladies at the parish where we married. One just commented to him about the superiority of Catholics. One tried to force him into RCIA. In fact she tricked us into attending a session by not telling us that this event for “mixed” marriage couples ( honestly - what an offensive term) was actually RCIA. We never went back. Fortunately they didn’t do marriage prep.) But I have been told that having organized discussions about their families of origin can be helpful, especially when it comes to marital expectations regarding roles and/or handling disagreements.

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    1. Right - people who don't want a Catholic wedding can go to Las Vegas, or ask one of the uncles, the cool one, to get one of those insta-wedding-minister certificates online. People who want a Catholic wedding are going to get a Catholic wedding, with all the trimmings: church, clergy, affidavits, instruction on the indissolubility of marriage, Catholic views on being generous in welcoming children, etc.

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    2. Good thing it wasn’t like that when my husband and I got married. I wasn’t a bit sure i wanted any kids, and most definitely would be using birth control -+thanking God for modern. Scientists who had invented the pill.

      We would have had a lovely, blessed christian wedding, conferring the sacrament on one another just as is the case in the Catholic Church, but not a Catholic wedding. You all have definitely found an effective way to keep the numbers of marriages in the church going down. Smaller but purer.

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    3. Right - people who don't want a Catholic wedding can go to Las Vegas,

      I’ve been wondering how the governor of Florida who is Catholic ( although not actually christian as far as I can tell) had a priest officiated Catholic wedding in Disney:World.

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    4. "I’ve been wondering how the governor of Florida who is Catholic ( although not actually christian as far as I can tell) had a priest officiated Catholic wedding in Disney:World."

      Didn't know that about DeSantis. I believe there were priests from the Orlando Diocese (or maybe priests from other dioceses who would fly into Orlando with the couple) who would do weddings at Disney World, but the Orlando diocese put the kibosh on it some years back. I haven't heard/thought about it in a long while, so perhaps the policy has changed again since then.

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    5. In the unlikely event I ever married, the last venue I'd ever choose for a wedding would be Disneyworld. And if the lady insisted on it and even if she was a doppelganger of Jenny Agutter, I'd call the whole thing off. Disney is a corporation. May as well get married at Amazon HQ.

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  9. It Is good that some dioceses are rethinking the requirement of celebrating marriages only in churches. It no longer makes much sense.

    At one time it probably made a lot of sense of get married in a beautiful church building that might be there for your fiftieth wedding anniversary, but with all the church closings that is no longer likely.
    It also made sense to get married in a church building because the couple, if both Catholic, were likely to know people in the parish and live their lives in the parish. Again, all those assumptions are gone.

    Therefore, we are really talking about a one -time celebration of a “community’ (i.e., combination of social networks) that are pretty much the choice of the couple that is being married.

    As a social psychologist interested in liturgy, I would be very interested in the guest list, their past and future relationships to the marriage partners. Could the location. contents, and choreography of the marriage service be used to help the wedding partners create a social network that will support them in the future?

    I am increasing coming to the conclusion that churches really fail to provide us with the needed community in our lives, and that unless we become more proactive in shaping our social networks, we are likely spending a lot of social time with people that will no longer be around when we need them.

    This has become very clear during the pandemic for Betty and myself, since even if the pandemic becomes less of a threat, we are likely to spend most of the rest of our lives being somewhat home bound with all our health problems.

    Before the pandemic I spent a lot of my time promoting the Commonweal Local Community, and Betty spent of lot of time being a cantor. Long before the pandemic, I decided that by age eighty, my CLC would be inviting a few friends to our home for celebrating Vespers, discussion of a Commonweal article and listening to my liturgical music collection.

    Currently my home is being re-sided. I have a spacious L shaped driveway area (the first owner had a place to park his mobile home). The home will become the backdrop to our flower, vegetable and plant growing activity. The summer after next we hope to redo the back porch to extend and reshape the outdoor gathering and plant growing area. The idea is to have most of our social activity take place outdoors around our house during the spring through fall season.

    From the beginning of our relationship, people who do not know us often assume we are married. When the salesman for the exterior remodeling concluded the deal last fall, he remarked in how pleasant it was dealing with us, how we each took active roles that enhanced the process, and how difficult it was often for him as a salesman to deal with couples. So, I hope with have the skills to build a home centered network as well as our personal relationship.

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    1. Jack, have you succeeded in building a CLC social network?

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    2. Yes and no.

      We had regular monthly meeting for three years before the pandemic began, but not since then.

      There are about thirty members on the mailing list, but only about fifteen members ever came to a meeting. The major problem is that people are scattered across the Cleveland area; only a few people were within a15 minute drive time for one another. Only about a half a dozen people are within a 30 minute drive time of each other. Most people won’t drive more than 30 minutes for most meetings.

      The maximum we ever got was ten people; most meetings were six or seven people. During the last year we began to recruit people from the parish in which we met. That was slowly becoming successful, so I think it is possible to create a CLC in a parish from people who are not Commonweal subscribers. The five free articles a month are sufficient.

      There are actually several hundred Commonweal subscribers in the Cleveland area, but Commonweal was very reluctant to give us the mailing list. They eventually let us send an e-mail telling them about our website. That did not produce many new members.

      The people who are interested in a CLC are usually not motivated enough to make it happen, e.g., to drive the distance, or the clear their schedule. One teacher at John Carroll was initially very excited, but it took her four months to get to a meeting and then she was disappointed by the smallness of the meeting. However, if everyone can only come once every four months, a mailing list of 28 produces only an average of 7 people.

      The best solution is for everyone one to invite a non Commonweal subscriber. That is how I met Betty; I had been impressed with her participation in another similar group. Commonweal does have reduced price gift subscriptions. No one else followed my example. If six members who came often, invited one friend that would produce a dozen people, a very nice size in my opinion. Once one gets very far about that size it becomes a large group where some people perform for the benefit of others.

      There are some Commonweal readers who would probably like a monthly meeting of thirty of more Cleveland areas subscribers whom they could tell their opinions to each month. But there are not thirty of them who are willing to travel more than a half hour to do that.

      My own solution is very simple, a household CLC where Betty and I invite people from the local parishes and the CLC mailing list to our home for outdoor gatherings, celebration of vespers, a Commonweal article discussion. Betty is a very good vegetarian cook so we can provide people with cheap healthy snacks. We will try that this summer beginning with small groups of several people at a time.

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    3. I hope it works out for you. When I was involved with centering prayer groups I went to several. Each was diffèrent and I found that not all were good fits. The group I stayed with for years had about 12 occasional members, and a core group of members that came every week, generally around 8 people. It was a good number. On thé rare occasions when it was 10 or more the discussion part of the gathering was less successful.

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    4. I think it's just about impossible to maintain a social network in retirement. People get sick, go into care, move to be closer to their siblings and kids. A lot are tied up caring for aged parents and spouses. Those who are in good health travel. Those who can afford it are in Florida condos for the winter. People don't stay in one place anymore.

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    5. That’s been our experience too Jean. Most of our decades long friends have either died or moved away to be near children and grandchildren. Or someplace warm. Unfortunately Florida is not really a place where we would want to live, even just for the winter. California is twice as expensive but we will move there for sunshine rather than a place where most of the people think DeSantis, trump, and MAGA are just wonderful.

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    7. IMO, the demands grown children make on some of my friends for money and child care would be a reason NOT to live too close to your kids. Most have had to put set limits.

      Yah, Florida, ugh. Disney, bad drivers, snakes, hurricanes, stifling heat, and Ron DeSantis. Nothing there I want to get tied up with. But a lot of Michigan people live there in winter, and that attracts big enclaves of them down there.

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    8. Jean said:

      I think it's just about impossible to maintain a social network in retirement.

      Yes this was abundantly clear as I accompanied by phone my aunt in Florida after the death of her husband. They were both extraverts who had assembled a social network that came to their home with its large pool well shielded from mosquitoes, etc. Her husband had assembled a network of maintenance people who could maintain her in that home.

      She described how quickly the social network fell apart as people got sick, died, or moved to be with their children.
      It became apparent to me that the solution is to build networks that consist of people about a half a generation (10 years apart). When people come into their eighties, their children about 20 years younger are usually not ready to retire. They may also be challenged by being grandparents. However, recruiting people in their seventies who have retired and don’t have children or grandchildren nearby begins to build a retirement network, they later can be filled out with the addition of people in their sixties who take retirement early.

      I actually brought this to the attention of our pastoral council. A few people liked the half-generation idea because it coincided with their experience. The parish has a youth culture of young families because it has a grade school. The pastor acknowledged the value of the idea but was not eager to balance the youth culture of the parish with a retirement community culture even though I was not talking about investing in housing, etc. just developing social networks.

      I guess I should have pressed the “green” button and dangled before everyone the possibly that a retirement community could become major funders of their school/ parish endowment which I think would have happened. But I dislike appealing to money; in the mental health system it was always clear that if you made good choices, money would follow.

      A key part of building a retirement network for Betty and I in our eighties will be to recruit people in their seventies and early retirees in their sixties with the notion that after caring for those of us who are in our eighties and nineties, younger people will be recruited to replace us.

      Hospitality is a key element for healthy, expanding groups as it has been for centuries in monastic communities. The idea is that if you value the guest whom you treat as Christ, some of these will eventually chose to belong to your community in some way or form.

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    9. I’ve known several couples who moved to “ active adult” communities. There are all kinds of clubs, social events, classes, and recreational amenities. They don’t have any appeal for us, but the people who are extraverts and who need a lot of people and activity around them seem to love these retirement communities. My husband’s sister and her husband moved to one last year. They tend to be restless, moving every three years or so. They claim that this is their last move. We’ll see.

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    10. Jack, When people come into their eighties, their children about 20 years younger are usually not ready to retire.

      Well, not everyone has only 20 years between generations anyway. Especially now when the average age at first marriage is in the late 20s, for both men and women. My husband is 82. Our children are nowhere near retirement! The two eldest are in their early 40s and the youngest is 38. As I recall, Jean’s son is still in his 20s. But she is still in her 60s, not in her 80s. Yet a similarly wide generational span. So the challenge of creating new social networks remains for we old folk. My hearing loss makes group gatherings impossible so I doubt that I will be able to make new friends at this age. It’s too big a barrier. I’m an introvert anyway. My husband is an extreme introvert and even when I suggest something mildly social like going to coffee and doughnuts at the churches we have been visiting to try to see if the membership might be a good fit, he isn’t interested.

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  10. I wish you well with your program, Jack. Generally, I think "seniors helping seniors" is a good way to go. But people do age at different rates. So expect that some of those in their 60s may fall apart faster than those in their 80s. And expect that some in their 60s still have living parents and are not looking to add more elders to their burdens.

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  11. Re: marriage prep, I suppose I am really showing my age when part of marriage prep consisted of my mother sitting me down with a cup of tea for a "little talk". She had such advice as, " This will always be your home, you can come anytime. Except if you and K had a fight; because then I will just tell you to go back and figure it out. Let not the sun go down upon your anger." She said the exception was if there was any kind of abuse. "But if we had any clue that he was that kind of guy, we'd have said something long since."
    And, " Be sure he gets what he needs at home, so he won't be tempted to look for it somewhere else."

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    1. If my mother had ever sat me down for a little talk I think she would have advised me not to get married - to anyone, ever. She was a bitter divorcée and basically didn’t like or trust men.

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    2. My mother said, "If anything goes wrong, we'll know it was your fault." I don't think she was kidding. Raber's mother assumed I was pregnant because we only gave everyone a month's notice.

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