Thursday, September 24, 2020

Catholic presidents, voters and social teaching

 The New York Times has an interesting article on its website by Elizabeth Bruenig about Catholics and politics.  Of course, its point of departure is the still-likely (although perhaps trending somewhat less-still-likely) election of Joe Biden in a couple of months.  Bruenig notes something which barely has registered with me: he'd be only the 2nd Catholic president in American history.

Having not been born until 1961, I missed the groundbreaking campaign and election of our first Catholic president, John F Kennedy.  For people like me, Bruenig provides some helpful background:

As Election Day approached 60 years ago, Catholics across the country followed the news with a nervous thrill of anticipation. For them, the final stage of a long struggle was at hand: An Irish Catholic was poised to become president of the United States, ending the historic Protestant monopoly on the White House — and on mainstream, middle-class respectability.

They knew that John F. Kennedy’s victory — and theirs — would not come easy. The Sept. 8, 1960, issue of The Catholic Transcript had reported a small portion of the widespread effort to undermine his chances on account of his faith: “In Missouri,” the paper warned, “Sunday sermons throughout the rugged ‘Bible Belt’ are being directed against Catholics,” while others circulated leaflets warning of a potential “Catholic militia” and the impending conversion of all public schools into Catholic schools.

Bruenig traces two threads of the anti-Catholicism which then prevailed.  One was intellectual: the Enlightenment philosophers such as John Locke whose thought undergirded the nation's foundational documents distrusted Catholics, whom they viewed as essentially undemocratic.  The other was simple and ugly prejudice against the poor, dirty and, in some cases, brown-skinned immigrants who brought their Catholic faith to America.  She notes that, as a result of this prejudice, Protestants and Catholics existed in what amounted to two separate and parallel societies, some of the vestiges of which continue today (e.g. Catholic schools, the Knights of Columbus).

Bruenig attributes to Kennedy's 1960 electoral victory the breaking down of the walls that kept those two societies separate.  As a result, Catholics were able to join Protestants as full partners in the middle class.

But, she perceptively notes, if Catholics gained from that monumental event, it seems that it also was the beginning of a loss.  She is not talking here about strong Catholic identity per se, but rather the distinctive social thought of Catholicism and how it was expressed in practical ways in American politics.  It is often said that Catholic social teaching is the church's best-kept secret, but Bruenig makes the case that it was better-known in my grandfather's day than it is now:

“F.D.R. brought Catholics into the Democratic Party in large numbers,” Dr. [Peter] Cajka [assistant teaching professor of American studies at the University of Notre Dame] said, referring to the stunning 70 percent to 81 percent of the Catholic vote Franklin Roosevelt won in 1936, “and they brought their social-justice, living-wage beliefs with them, and that was the high-water mark for Catholic-inflected policy that would really affect a redistribution of wealth. Since then, Catholicism has gone with the neoliberal drift.”

Bruenig cites a number of instances (Paul Ryan, the five members of the Supreme Court's conservative bloc) of prominent Catholic officials today who seem more immersed in conventional streams of American political thought than Catholic social teaching.

Provocatively, she includes Joe Biden on that list.  Of course, one reason is his position on abortion.  But she suggests that, even by the standards of Catholic social teaching as articulated by Pope Francis and his predecessors, Biden isn't exactly a stalwart:

Though he likes to compare himself with Roosevelt, Mr. Biden is loath to be associated with anything like the radicalism of the New Deal, once implying that even if Congress passed “Medicare for all,” he would veto it as president. Small vestiges of the sensibilities that created and sustained the intensely pro-poor, activist politics of early-20th-century Catholicism still exist, but the pro-labor, anticapitalist threat the Catholic left once posed to the political establishment has greatly waned.

Bruenig suggests that Biden is missing an opportunity, because Catholic social teaching actually is alive and well in pockets of American Catholicism today:

Mr. Biden could look to the example of Pope Francis as a model for a kind of Catholicity that is both pious and challenging to the powers that be — if he, or anyone else, were interested in that sort of thing. “Biden has the opportunity to really capture what a post-Vatican II Catholic identity looks like,” Dr. [Maria R] Mazzenga [curator of American Catholic History Collections at Catholic University’s library] observed. “He has an opportunity to talk to liberal Catholic groups fired up by anti-racism activism, anti-gun activism, environmental activism. But he’s not doing it.” Dr. Cajka agreed: “A good, Pope Francis Catholic should be posing a threat to the American ruling class,” he said. But Mr. Biden’s track record is anything but radical, even where it comes to labor unionswar and Social Security.


59 comments:

  1. I commented on the previous thread with this quote from EJ Dionne in today's WaPo, but it is probably more relevant to this post. He said, "Conservatives use Roe v. Wade as a decoy. Of course Roe will continue to matter. But conservatives have brilliantly used the abortion question to distract attention from the core of their activist agenda. It involves dismantling regulation, gutting civil rights laws, narrowing voting rights enforcement giving moneyed interests free rein in our politics, strengthening corporate power, weakening unions, undercutting antitrust laws — and, now, tearing apart the Affordable Care Act."
    I have seen Biden address some of this stuff, but as you said, he isn't coming across as a radical. He is to a degree walking a tightrope. Bernie Sanders maybe would have been more satisfactory to the Catholic left. But Sanders isn't the candidate. Biden's mission is that he has to not only beat Trump, but beat him very decisively. He needs the Lincoln Project types to do that, and he'd lose them if he came across too leftish.

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  2. I'm voting for Biden only because he isn't Trump and doesn't have delusions of monarchy. I don't expect much else from him. He's as Republican as any Democrat can be. His voting record and statements are on record. I don't see in Harris any glimmer of reform, either. At most, this is a reprieve from societal collapse.

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    1. Yes, I think that's right.

      Debate next Tuesday will be interesting and, I expect, horrifying. I hope Biden skips the Ovaltine and chugs a couple Red Bulls before he comes out. From the campaign trail, he sounds like a querulous old man with a raspy cold. Trump sounded great in his town hall (if you didn't listen to the actual answers). I'm worried.

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    2. If he was talking with a mask on, that makes one sound raspy. Of course Trump never talks with a mask. I am expecting that raspy or not, he will have researched his subjects and material. Trump will just get up there and spew whatever b.s. comes into his brain, and his minions will love it.

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    3. He sounds that way with the mask off. I fear he will seem doddering next to Trump.

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  3. Question to the class: do you think Biden's comparing himself to FDR (however apt the comparison really is) resonates with many voters today? Biden himself presumably can't really remember FDR's presidency; his age when FDR died was about mine when Kennedy was shot. I guess I'm wondering whether FDR is sort of like Jefferson and Lincoln - remembered, but only because of history books and statuary.

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    1. I'm not sure they even know who Reagan was. I was born in the shadow of FDR and WWII and was aware from an early age of both. I guess other boomers know who FDR was but boomers on average aren't all that moved. When I visited Hyde Park four years ago, I was moved to tears by remembering what was lost. I didn't see anyone else's eyes welling up. Biden's a political hack. Reagan and the Republicans raped and killed the New Deal like it was Kitty Genovese with the Democrats doing nothing.

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    2. I think you underestimate how FDR resonates with Democrats. It's short-hand for a kind of government that will intervene to correct large-scale suffering and inequality. I'm not sure the Millennials who talk about FDR-government really know anything about the real FDR, but they do understand that it means government solutions to problems that other aspects of society fail to address (widespread lack of health care, low wages, high unemployment, etc.).

      The Nanny State in Republican circles.

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    3. FDR was not in my lifetime either, the earliest president I remember was Eisenhower. But my paternal grandma was a staunch FDR Democrat. She always told how she got out of a sickbed to vote for FDR. And was also a Kennedy Democrat. My mom was just as staunch a Goldwater and Reagan Republican, and her mom was county Republican chairman. Some heated discussions occurred. But they didn't kill or unfriend one another.

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    4. OK, Children, I not only remember FDR, Harry Truman waved to me from a convertible when he was still vice-president. There are FDR the legend and FDR the 32nd president. The former was much more liberal than the latter, who started off his term thinking it was important to balance the budget and was persuaded otherwise by events more than by advisers. Anyhow, he backed into Keynesian economics, and then Adolf Hitler helped U.S. government spending along by declaring war on us, Dec. 8 1941. Quite plainly, by 1945, the good effects of government "interference" in the economy were there for all to see, although, naturally, most Republicans refused to see it. The "again" years referred to in MAGA followed, and it wasn't until almost the 1970s that they managed to develop an economic theory that said that what they had seen wasn't true, and that letting the rich keep it would make everybody happy.

      And that is why FDR, as Jean says,"resonates with Democrats."

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    5. I was only 3.5 when FDR died...so Tom has that. But FDR never died in our household or in my father's affections. As far as I could tell he was in office until JFK arrived..

      Elizabeth Bruenig? Hmmm! A johnny-come-lately expert on FDR, Catholics, and is probably a Bernie-ite. She was born in 1990 or 91??? (Wikipedia is not sure.) So a GHW Bush infancy.

      The Dems have made a lot of mistakes and done a lot of dumb things, but can we agree that except for Catholic Social Teaching working its way into FDR's agenda, there would be no social security and a variety of other ameliorative and equalizing policies.

      Post-LBJ, the Dems have had to fight off Republican efforts to destroy the in-place ameliorative and equalizing policies while preventing further such policies being legislated. Biden has done his bit. Nancy Pelosi had the balls to get health care through in ACA legislation, something FDR and Truman could only dream of.

      So Biden and Pelosi aren't Bruenig's kind of Catholic...Tant pis.

      I wish Biden would shut up about the Hyde Amendment...and just leave it do its tiny effort to make a moral point! (And yes, a point that keeps getting smaller).

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    6. A friend's daughter (now 19) knows about FDR. Her grandfather used to ask her whose picture was on the dime when she was 4 or 5. When she said, "FDR, the greatest president in America!" he gave her the dime.

      I think most of us Democrats have passed down stories about Depression-Era programs to our kids. We used to take The Boy to Hartwick Pines State Park and talk about how his relatives in the Civilian Conservation Corps built all the park buildings and sent some of their wages home to his great-great-grandmother.

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  4. Since Jim probably has never heard of Kitty Genovese either, here’s a link

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese

    I have to vote for Biden. His religion has absolutely nothing to do with this choice, it has to do with saving our democracy - literally. Trump intends to stay in office and his campaign is now considering getting red state governors to replace Biden electors with trump electors where needed. His son is priming the militias for action.

    Will his SC appointees let him get away with stealing the WH if Biden wins?

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    1. I remember about Kitty Genovese.
      I also have to vote for Biden because its about saving our democracy.
      But my feeling is that Trump is bluffing about his threats not to leave office. He's doing a good job of winding people up, which is what he loves best. In the end he is really not a very brave person. Did you ever notice how his favorite answer when asked a question is "We'll have to see." It's a way of setting people on edge without actually having to commit to anything, or have a real plan.
      Though having said that, I think there has to be an exit plan made for him (involving secret service, and possibly military), in case he doesn't make one for himself.

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    2. Katherine, at times I have thought the same thing - that he is bluffing. But I think it's probably wishful thinking.

      I look at the talk about replacing Biden electors with trump electors in the states and begin to wonder. He loves being the most powerful man in the world. He hates that people trust Fauci more than they trust him. His ego is always paramount in his decision making.

      But, for all his finger-pointing at Biden's "weakness" and feebleness, it seems that he is feeling his age too. trying to cover by getting laughs about his failure to drink water without his hands shaking, or the care he took walking down that ramp, but it's there. Can't help but wonder if he will stay in office long enough to pass the baton to Ivanka. I don't know how they might try to engineer that. She's not in the line of succession right now - it would go to Pence. Not sure how the trump machinations will turn out.

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    3. I'll confess to my throwing Kitty Genovese in answer to young Jim's query was not without guile.

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    4. Stanley, I figured the reference was meant to remind the youngster in this group of all that he missed because he hadn't been born in time!

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  5. Back in the 1960s (the old geezer continued) we couldn't have a civil rights action without the rabbi, the priest and the minister to open it with a prayer. The rabbi would be Dudley Weinberg who, I think must have been today's God Squad column Rabbi Marc Gellman's rabbi. He was real good. The priest would have been one of the old labor priests or one of their younger acolytes, like Jim Groppi. That there were plenty of such priests available was a given because the Church had had a "social doctrine" since Pope Leo XII, although it was called the "best kept secret in the Church." Those who knew the secret were legion, though. I admit there were fewer social encyclicals to know thoroughly in those days. In big events, like Selma, one of the march directives was, "Collars to the front." Although the dean of the Notre Dame law school condemned them loudly and often and Cardinal Spellman didn't like it, priests and nuns were a crucial to great demonstrations as mustard is to great brats.

    So that is a tradition.

    You would barely know it today.

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  6. Although the dean of the Notre Dame law school condemned them loudly and often and Cardinal Spellman didn't like it, priests and nuns were a crucial to great demonstrations as mustard is to great brats.

    So that is a tradition.

    You would barely know it today.


    The Nuns on the Bus are still trying!

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  7. Interesting point about Catholics joining the mainstream with Kennedy.

    There's some saying, old at this point, that in America, even the Catholics are Protestants.

    The notion of a Catholic Republican was entirely foreign to me as a child. My neighborhood was working class, union, Democratic, and Catholic. All these things went together. As a kid, if I was being ungenerous, bragging, trying to pull rank on younger kids, or generally creating disharmony, someone would gently say, "Jeanie Hughes, I think you might be a Republican."

    It's always a little jarring still to wrap my head around a Catholic Republican. Paul Ryan making his staff read Ayn Rand vs., say, a Life of St. Martin De Porres, as a case in point.

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    1. Jean, I grew up in a Catholic Republican family. My mom was raised in a Catholic Democratic family. She became a Republican BECAUSE of FDR - and Pope Pius XII. She thought FDR was too tolerant of commies. I still remember her arguments with my grandmother (the only grandparent alive when I was born) about Kennedy. My grandmother was horrified that my mother was not going to vote for him.

      The majority of my classmates in college - a Catholic womens' college - were Republican. There was a mock election one year and the GOP won in a landslide.

      Maybe another difference between growing up Catholic in California compared to elsewhere. We didn't have all the ethnic Catholic parishes that are apparently common in the mid-west and east coast. Life didn't revolve around a parish full of people from the same cultural/ethnic backgrounds as seems common in the places many of you grew up in.

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    2. In my neighborhood, life revolved around the parish even if you weren't Catholic.

      There was no talk of commies, except as abstractions, even though it was the 1950s. The local company presidents were much more immediate dangers to a family's well-being.

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  8. Presumably FDR didn't loathe commies too much - wasn't his first veep one? Although I think he loathed him ...

    As for Kitty Genovese - I was going to say, "C'mon, I know who she was." But all I really knew was that she had been killed in the middle of the street in broad daylight, and 38 witnesses refused to talk to the police about it. Then I looked her up in Wikipedia and discovered that every fact I just wrote, except for the part where she was killed, was wrong.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese

    The guy that killed her was kind of an evil genius - apparently in the Hannibal Lecter category. That poor woman.

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    1. No, Jim (said the geezer petulantly), FDR's first vice president was John Nance Garner of Texas, who famously said the vice presidency wasn't worth a bucket of warm spit -- except he didn't say "spit." Garner got tired and didn't want anything to do with a third term in 1940. So Henry Wallace got the job. Wallace had been a Republican and held a patent on a very productive variety of corn, but the Depression pushed him toward radicalism. By 1944, FDR had soured on Wallace, and vice versa, which is why Harry Truman was vice president when FDR died.

      The Republican, Wendell Wilkie, traveled with his mistress on that campaign and nobody in the Victorian press said a mumbling word. I used to bring coffee to a reporter who interviewed Wilkie while he and the lady were both in bed.

      Wallace ran for president as a fourth-party candidate (Strom Thurmond, a Dixiecrat and another ex-Democrat, was the third party) in 1948. Wallace had support from the still-legal Communist party, but he did not run under its banner. Harry beat them all.

      FDR did recognize the Soviet Union. Like Nixon recognized the existence of communist China. Rs said FDR was a traitor and Nixon a genius. Sort of like whether you should seat a Supreme Court justice in an election year.

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    2. Tom, O Ancient One, wasn't here a Democrat who opposed FDR for not being Left enough? I don't recall that it was Wallace. I seem to remember that FDR thought about asking him to run as VP to neutralize him, but settled on Truman instead. Can't find a reference, though.

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    3. Jean, Wallace is probably you have in mind. But he was attacked from both sides at various times Fr. Coughlin was interesting in that he started out attacking FDR from the left and ended up attacking him from the right. If you ever visited Hyde Park, you saw that he had no reason to want to overthrow the established order.

      Oh, yeah, and Eleanor didn't think he was left enough.

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  9. I remember FDR well because my parents were of the Depression generation and my father was able to marry and support a family because of the WPA. People tend to forget/not know what changes the New Deal brought about. Here is a list of a truly amazing slate of accomplishments during his three terms of office: https://livingnewdeal.org/what-was-the-new-deal/programs/

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  10. My grandmother's husband was a little bandy rooster of an Irishman from Chicago. He took my political education in hand when I was quite young and taught me that, if I was to be a true Irishman (I'm not, actually, bust the last name is) you also had to be

    A Catholic
    A Democrat
    Pro-union.

    To this day I keep that in mind.

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    1. The story Andy Greeley used to tell: Mrs. O'Brien meets Mrs. Murphy and says, "Did you hear? O'Hara has turned Republican!" "How can that be," replies Mrs. Murphy, "Didn't I see him in church just last Sunday?"

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    2. Jim McR - just to illustrate the family differences: my grandfather, who was Catholic by the time I came along but had grown up as a rural Indiana mainline Protestant, once told me when I was a kid, "You can vote for anyone you want, as long as he is a Republican". :-)

      He was everyone's idea of what a Republican was: fairly well-to-do by the standards of that town, a country clubber (and scratch golfer), belonged to about 19 community organizations and private clubs. He drove every day to his insurance agency downtown, where his car was not only parked by garage attendants, but they also gassed it up, washed it and got his oil changed for him.

      My own Irish Catholic roots are from the other side of the family tree. My great-uncle was a railroad engineer. Now *that's* an Irish Catholic Democrat. No cops or firemen, though - not sure how that happened.

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    3. Jim, I take it that your grandfather was a convert? Do you think that becoming Catholic changed him much?

      Many years before I converted to Catholicism, I was chatting with an elderly Hungarian priest at a social function. I was an Episcopalian at the time, baptized as an adult. He said he believed I would always be a Unitarian at heart, that people continue filtering everything through the faith in which they were raised.

      I asked about people who convert after marriage, and he kind of waved is hand dismissively, "To keep the mothers-in-law happy," he said.

      I think about that a lot.

      Raber and I converted without any family pressures, rather in spite of them. But I would say that what seemed strange to us about Catholicism before we converted still does. When you move into something new in middle age, I don't think you can fully assimilate.

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    4. God moves in mysterious ways...I think a lot depends on the person in question. My husband was raised in an Evangelical Protestant tradition. He remained that for the first ten years that we were married. But he was moved to convert to Catholicism in 1982 (and no I never bugged him to do that). And he has been a deacon for the past 20 years. I think one does retain a lot of what one was raised in though. His knowledge of and devotion to Scripture is a defining characteristic, as is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

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    5. Hi Jean, I would have to say my grandfather didn't exactly wrap himself in the Catholic subculture. I think it's likely your Hungarian priest probably had him pegged about right. Hard to say, though, what was going on inside him. The story my mom tells of his conversion is as follows: when she was a little girl, she and my grandmother went to mass every Sunday, while he stayed behind. One Sunday, when my grandmother announced they were leaving for mass, my grandfather stated he was coming, too. This would have been in the 1940s or 1950s, i.e. when everyone thought that a Protestant would be arrested or something if s/he set foot in a Catholic church. He said, "I'm Catholic now, too" and revealed he had been meeting with the pastor for private instruction for the last umpteen months, on Wednesday afternoons or some such - of course, there was no RCIA back then, so it was all done via private instruction. So he managed to pull off a religious conversion without his wife even being aware. That kind of thing is pretty alien to me; my wife can suss out that I've changed the television channel when she's on the other side of the house and will shout out, "What are you doing?"

      I can't say I ever remember my grandfather darkening the door of a church when I was growing up. He talked a lot more about his golf game than Catholicism. But his kids, my mother and my uncle, who went to Catholic school for 12 years, are very much products of the Catholic subculture of the era. My mom is as pious as any church lady. But even she has inherited the streak of Indiana Presbyterian and Methodist uprightness from her dad and that side of the family. A couple of years ago, we went to a family reunion in Indiana for that branch of the family. There was no beer. My wife, who is from the Chicago South Side Slovak Catholic milieu, was agog. Frankly, I was, too: all the other family reunions I had ever been to had been with my dad's Belgian family. For that family, and my wife's Slovaks, hosting a reunion without a keg would get one drummed out of the family.

      (But then my grandfather, from the upright-Indiana family, was never without a cocktail. He and my grandmother were professional cocktailers, cf the country clubs, private clubs et al. I think they were the last generation that actually went to cocktail parties. Maybe that sort of conviviality is one of the things that attracted him to Catholicism.)

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    6. Jim what you said about your grandfather pursuing instructions with the priest without your grandmother knowing, was true of my mom too. She joined when I was about seven. Dad's mother, our "Nana", was in on the secret because Mom needed a babysitter when she went to the sessions. Mom said said she didn't tell Dad at first because she didn't want to disappoint him if she ran up against something in the instructions that was a deal breaker.

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    7. Thanks for sharing your family's experiences, Jim and Katherine. I think that one's own upbringing often facilitates or throws up barriers in the call to conversion. Hopefully, God understands these challenges and continues to help us get in "good enough" shape spiritually.

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    8. Guess I was also wondering if any of the converts in your families seemed to change at all, not just in church-going habits or enjoying the Catholic drinking scene, but in their fundamental attitude toward their own attitudes. That is, does conversion actually convert anyone's behavior? Another issue I ponder a lot. In my case, I'm a Bad Catholic, but I think I am a better person.

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    9. Jean - I'd be amazed if the experience doesn't change people, even if it's not always visible or easy to put one's finger on what is different.

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    10. Katherine - when your dad learned that your mom had converted, did they have to get the paddles out for him? (Assuming paddles existed then?)

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    11. LOL, I don't remember Dad being super surprised, but then I was pretty young. What I do remember is Mom getting conditionally baptized, and that she was eight months pregnant with my younger brother. We used to kid him that he had been baptized twice.

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  11. About Trump talking smack about *maybe* not leaving office if defeated, I found <a href="https://www.huffpost.com/entry/liz-cheney-trump-peaceful-transfer-power_n_5f6c90afc5b653a2bcb0d804>this</a> somewhat reassuring. Top Republican leaders (including McConnell) promised a smooth transition of power "...as there has been every four years since 1792."

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    1. Link didn't form, copy and paste: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/liz-cheney-trump-peaceful-transfer-power_n_5f6c90afc5b653a2bcb0d804

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  12. Commentary on why questions to Barrett about the People of Praise affiliation is appropriate and necessary.

    https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEBmTYpJdAlfk5Sb1td315-EqGQgEKhAIACoHCAow4Zn5CjCu8uACMLTRlgY?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US%3Aen

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    1. Good article by Massimo Faggioli. He states, "...they can and should exercise prudence and good judgment in vetting nominees to the highest court in the land—and that includes examining oaths and commitments they may have made that could affect or supersede an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." Fair enough, and I'm sure that will happen. What shouldn't be on the table is a litmus test of how someone would rule on a hypothetical case which isn't even before the court at present.

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    2. I learned about that Faggioli piece when I saw a response to it by Ramesh Ponnuru at National Review's website.

      https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/faggiolis-dishonest-questions-about-judge-barrett/

      It's kind of remarkable because Ponnuru usually is as civil and measured as any writer I can think of. This is the strongest criticism I can recall him levying.

      Faggioli always has an interesting take, but he does have kind of a thing about conservative lay movements - he sees them as a major threat to the health of the church. I think most of them are pretty harmless (as I suspect this thing that Barrett belongs to is), and the church authorities need to have a certain tolerance for both righters and lefters in the church to pursue their spiritualities. Unity in diversity and all that.

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    3. Jim, I agree that church authorities need to have tolerance for people to pursue their spiritualies, (However didn't it used to be a thing that Catholics weren't supposed to join "secret societies"?) But this isn't about Catholic house rules. It's about a position in civil government, and whether a person is free to carry out the duties of same. There would be fair and unfair questions to ask.

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    4. As we continue to separate ourselves - sort ourselves - into ideological bubbles, with the walls between us ever more impermeable, our knowledge, understanding and empathy for people in the other bubbles wanes. I think some of this is as simple as: if public intellectuals and public figures were willing to expose themselves to people who think differently than they do, willing to try to find something admirable in them rather than be terrified by them and hate them, much of the heat and rancor of public life would be reduced.

      Twitter, which seems to be the primary domain of public intellectuals and public leaders, is antithetical to this project.

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    5. Just an aside to Jim's last point: I was, under duress, on a Christopublican Web site the other day, and the speaker was identifying the others he quoted by the number of Twitter followers they had.

      I don't Tweet; therefore, I don't exist.

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    7. Yes, tolerance and finding something admirable in other ways of thinking! I have to work on that one a lot. The medieval/Reformation beguine movement of which I am so admiring, was a victim of clerical intolerance, and yet, they still exist in an interdenominational form.

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  13. Katherine, as is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

    I hear this all the time, mostly from evangelicals. I have no idea what it means though. How does your husband's relationship with Jesus Christ differ from yours, Katherine?

    What are the characteristics of a "personal" relationship with Jesus Christ?

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    1. This is fundie-gelical code for "we don't believe in priestly intermediaries between us and Jesus, and those who do aren't truly Christians, are you listening, Catholics." They also promote their own trinity, Buddy Jesus, Daddy Jesus, and Judge Jesus, you pick the one you think will help you with your current problems.

      One of my coworkers used to talk about how comforting it was to climb up in Daddy Jesus's lap and tell him her troubles, an image that always nauseated and shocked me. The woman is a right-wing virago on a state talk radio network, so imagine Ann Coulter climbing up in Jesus's lap in footie jammies to tearfully recount her woes, and you kind of get why I find the whole thing jarring.

      I guess if you're Catholic and want a "personal relationship" with Jesus Christ, you pray to him directly. Or, as in Ignatian spirituality, you imagine speaking to him directly.

      In my cosmology, Jesus, after modeling human perfection Down Here, has ascended Up There and re-merged with the Father. I don't think of them as a separate identity, but that may be a heresy. The Holy Spirit still floats around down here if you need a local representative, but he seems to be out of the office a lot.

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    2. "I guess if you're Catholic and want a "personal relationship" with Jesus Christ, you pray to him directly." That would be how I would understand a personal relationship, and it seems like that would also be true of my husband. And of course a connection with Jesus in the Eucharist, and a lectio divina connection in Scripture.
      Honestly I never did get the "buddy/ daddy" with Jesus vibe
      from my husband, even in his Protestant days.
      About the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, isn't that expressed in the voice of one's conscience, and the impulse to pray? I have heard that prayer doesn't begin with oneself, but with God, "I sought the Lord, and afterwards I knew, He moved my soul to seek him, seeking me..."

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    3. Katherine, I don't really grasp the concept of the Holy Spirit a lot of the time. Maybe that would make a fruitful area of study on my part.

      Unitarians are pretty entrenched in the whole "God is Other, Outside, and Far Away" notion, I suppose I often fall back on that.

      Some Universalists of the happy-clappy variety believe that "God is Everywhere!" Even in Donald Trump, which is, I suppose, why he is on my prayer list. He could look down one day and realize his is beating. If George Wallace could repent at the end, I suppose Trump could. Dear God, heal the heart of Donald Trump, grudge grudge.

      Apologies to your husband's brand of evangelicalism. "Evangelicals" seems to me to be a vexed term for a quite varied bunch of believers. Some of these people are infantile. Some not.

      Eckk. I am talking too much today. Must be the meds ...

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  14. What an interesting post--in the new format! All the stories of converting and mixedness of marriages and families, puts me in mind of the little band of "sisters" that are part of my neighborhood aging in place group. I say "sisters" because there are also some guys.

    Per religion: One of my groups is half Jewish with three Catholics. Possibly there is a Protestant, hard to tell. And the usual "nones." Religion certainly comes up in the context of a book and of various cultural, political issues. They are alluded to and discussed, but generally there is no reference to the back story of its religious impulses.

    Thus, we read "The Archive Thief". It is the story of a man, refugee from Eastern Europe in Paris, late thirties and forties. Short version: he manages in addition to first serving in the French army and then the U.S. army to get himself in the position of finding and saving various archives in France and Germany dealing with Jewish communities, old and new. Ultimately he sends these to the U.S. as part of a U.S. program to preserve the European heritage. Later in life, he works for a Jewish organization that collects such documents and he manages to grab/steal/acquire documents from everywhere, including the NYC public library.. Quite a story.

    What struck me about the conversation we had was: The word is sacred and must be preserved (even if purloined). There seemed to be no criticism in our little group per any religious issue about sacred texts and "the Word, but about how librarians were so easily taken in. Maybe that's just liberal NY, or maybe it is a coalescence of respect for the idea of words as part of the sacred, or at least part of the tradition.

    World War ! group: several people have dropped out when we got to Hitler. Too awful.

    Third, small group: one Catholic, two Jewish, sort of, and one Presbyterian... Lots of topics subject to a kind of religious analysis but not to a discussion that leads to religion, as such.

    Everyone is voting for Biden--probably by absentee ballot.

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    1. Margaret, are you telling me there is more to talk about than Trump, football, Trump, restaurants and Trump? I miss New Jersey.

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    2. Yes, Tom. There is.....Grant by Ron Chernow and the effort he and Lincoln (before being assassinated by a resentful Southerner) made to make the peace, protect the freed women and men, and get the South back into the Union and the Congress (what a mistake!).

      And then there is Underland by Robert McFarland about the world below the earth...caverns, caves, waterfall, tunnels...burial sites, mines, worship spaces, etc. Quite amazing bordering on the claustrophobic. There are lots of ways to scare yourself!

      For example, Andrew Sullivans Dish dish yesterday:
      "Yes, This Is The Face Of A Tyrant," comparing whatsit to Richard III.

      "If there’s one enduring theme about tyrants in myth, literature, and history it is that, for a long time, no one takes them seriously. And there are few better examples of this than Shakespeare’s fictional Richard III. He’s a preposterous figure in many ways, an unsightly hunchback, far down the line of royal accession, socially outcast, riven with resentment, utterly dismissible — until he serially dismisses and/or murders everyone between him and the throne. What makes the play so riveting and often darkly funny is the sheer unlikelihood of the plot, the previously inconceivable ascent to the Crown of this indelibly absurd figure, as Stephen Greenblatt recently explored in his brilliant monograph, Tyrant."

      Link: Sorry Bitly now a money-making endeavor:

      https://mail.google.com/mail/u/1/?ticket=ST-2284-iFR7fdyXxTgVoi9j5ESJClq2CuQ-erp-loginp#search/andrew+sull/KtbxLxgCBBZxQfHkvKmvkmXbmplRMRHBMg

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    3. For more on Grant, read his memoirs (The Library of America has it), one of the really great America auto-b's. It was said he had help from Mark Twain, but it reads like the man himself.

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    4. Also in a historical vein, this afternoon I finished Michael Pye's "Edge of the World," about the development of civilization in the North and Baltic seas.

      If I were not of exclusively north European extraction (as far as I know), I might find this to be something of an apology for white aggression, rapine business practices, and colonialism. That's not Pye's intent, though he skates over the run-ins northern Europeans had with native people in the early 16th century.

      His book is really focused on dragging a people who often seem benighted out of the "Dark Ages" and on demonstrating their powers of ingenuity, imagination, and contributions to science and technology.

      I always assumed that my distant ancestors, like the nearer ones, were potato-eating flax pounders and scratch farmers, tight with money, house-proud, nutty about cleanliness, and surprisingly tenderhearted around children, farm animals, and old people. They were all that. But they were also innovative, socially mobile, hard to control, eager for education, and their women were not to be pushed around. If your family comes largely from points hovering around the 53rd Parallel North, all of these people will seem very familiar.

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    5. Hmmm, might have to check out "Edge of the World", since my ancestors would have come from those areas too.

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