Monday, August 17, 2020

Is the Catholic Church in the US too tolerant of white nationalism? [UPDATED]

Update August 17, 2020 2:55 pm CDT: I revised the post to give more emphasis to Martin's criticism of the bishops - and their apparent failure, so far, to respond.

 At National Catholic Reporter, Christopher White reports on a controversy centered on an article which appeared in Sojourners, a progressive magazine founded and run (until the last few days - see below) by Evangelical activist Jim Wallis:

The controversy surrounds the article, first published online under the headline "The Catholic Church has a Visible White-Power Faction" and appearing in the August issue of the print magazine under the title "Harboring a Culture of Hate." The essay was penned by Eric Martin who teaches religion at the University of California Los Angeles and was arrested for countering white supremacist's protests  in Charlottesville, Virginia in 2017.

The Sojourners article by Martin is available here.  It's provocative and not flawless but on the whole I didn't find it easy to dismiss.  It should provoke some soul-searching on the part of Catholics and their leaders.  Much of it highlights Catholics (or, in some cases, people who were raised Catholic) who also are active in white racist hate groups.  That there are such people is something I wasn't previously particularly aware, but I don't find it especially surprising: there are tens of millions of American Catholics, and they cover an entire spectrum of political beliefs, some of them surely drifting into the marginal, the loony and the dangerous.  

The words "conservative" and "liberal", when used in a religious context, don't always align perfectly with the political meaning of those words - but the political and religious contexts aren't mutually exclusive, either.  Martin does a good job illustrating the intersection of conservative Catholicism and white supremacy:

In 2017, an alliance of the KKK, neo-Nazis, and the alt-right did much of their planning for the Unite the Right rally [in Charlottesville in 2017] in chat rooms that have since been made public by the media outlet Unicorn Riot. One of the more popular chat rooms was designated specifically for Catholics to explore the connections between their church and the rally. “No cultural Christians allowed,” its heading read. It was reserved for “dedicated” Catholics only and named after Nicholas J. Fuentes, a Catholic member of the neo-Nazi group Identity Evropa. Fuentes is an online influencer with 90,000 followers on social media; he was present at Charlottesville. Across all servers, more than 14,000 posts related to Catholicism were released in the aftermath of the event, and an early post captures their spirit: “I’m baptized Catholic [and] ready for a crusade.”

Here Catholics discussed everything from their favorite saints to their thoughts on Pope Urban II. They talked of “how to defend proper Catholicism” and shared links to the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter. They saluted “Sieg heil!” to each other. They went from joking about the murder of Heather Heyer, the anti-racist activist who was run over in Charlottesville by a neo-Nazi, to singing “Ave Maria” together. They discussed the merits of Mein Kampf, identified themselves as “Charles Coughlin Roman Catholics” (after the 1930s Catholic radio demagogue), encouraged genocide against Jews, advertised the anti-Semitic podcast The Daily Shoah, and confessed their allegiance to what they call the “14 words”: “We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children.”

Troubling stuff.

More controversially, Martin insists that the Catholic hierarchy is insufficiently committed to combating white supremacy: 

WHEN THE U.S. Catholic bishops gathered to draft a document on race in the wake of the 2017 white terrorist rally in Charlottesville, Va., Bishop Anthony Taylor of Little Rock, Ark., submitted an amendment to condemn the imagery of swastikas, Confederate flags, and nooses. The U.S. bishops deliberated and voted to reject it.

The document, “Open Wide Our Hearts,” was billed as “a pastoral letter against racism,” making its writers’ inability to adopt the amendment condemning three famously extreme symbols of racism a curious one. The bishops explained themselves by arguing that swastikas and nooses were already “widely recognized signs of hatred,” which would seem to make them all the easier to condemn. (Interestingly, they eschewed this logic when issuing their only condemnation, against violence toward police.) As for the Confederate flag, “some still claim it as a sign of heritage,” they argued.

To be clear: the US bishops' document in question deplores swastikas and nooses (but not confederate flags, apparently).   The sin, in Martin's eyes, is that deploring isn't enough; the bishops should have condemned them.  To be fair to Martin, it isn't just that the bishops overlooked an opportunity to come out more strongly against these symbols of white nationalism.  As quoted above, when the bishops deliberated over the document a couple of years ago, they voted down an amendment proposed by one of their own to condemn the symbols.  In other words, they had a chance to come out more strongly but they declined.

The details of that deliberation, and the reasons given by the bishops for rejecting the proposed amendment, aren't supplied by Martin in the Sojourners article, nor by White in his NCR report.  Absent that context, the reader of Martin's article is left to infer that the bishops harbor some sort of sympathy for white supremacists.  Knowing what I know about the bishops and what they teach (and what they genuinely believe), I don't find that inference credible, despite the damning way Martin reports the circumstances of the bishops' deliberation.  

This passage in Martin's article, which must be understood as a criticism of official church teaching, stirred up a strong negative reaction toward the article by Catholic groups, some of whom consider themselves allies of Wallis and Sojourners on justice and peace issues.  That in turn spawned a counter-reaction from those who insist that Martin has it right.  Wallis, who apparently has worked for decades to cultivate strong relationships with Catholic peace and justice organizations, was sufficiently stung by the criticisms to have Martin's article removed from the Sojourners' website.  That editorial decision in turn unleashed criticism both within and from outside the magazine, and led to the resignation of two Sojourners editors, both persons of color.  Wallis then reinstated the article, removed himself from editorial decision-making, and promised that Sojourners will be more transparent in its editorial processes and policies.  White's NCR article recounts the details of how the controversy unfolded and Sojourners multi-stage response.

The presence of white supremacists in the church certainly is of interest to me.  As I say, I wasn't previously particularly aware of it.  So Martin taught me something.  As a minister of the church, I will offer the view that white supremacist beliefs are wrong, and utterly inconsistent with Catholic beliefs regarding the rights and dignity of all people.  Martin has me wondering, What should the church do about Catholic white supremacists?  

But even more important is the criticism of the bishops.  When I went to the usccb.org website to search - fruitlessly - for an official response to the Sojourners article, the content on the landing page is "Confronting the Sin of Racism", with links to the document in question and a variety of other statements and resources.  I offer this as evidence of the bishops' good intentions regarding racism and white supremacy.  But that I was not able to find a response, indicates that the bishops either are unaware that their reputation has been impugned by Martin, or don't consider it sufficiently important to respond.  If the former is the case, someone needs to make them aware.  If the latter - then I disagree.  If the bishops' decision to reject the language of condemnation of white nationalist symbols was defensible, they should defend it.  Either way, the bishops should respond.  

Martin's article calls into question whether the bishops have spoken out as strongly against racism and white supremacy as is necessary for this historical moment.  The article also amounts to an indictment of them, and the Catholic church as a whole, for being overly comfortable with white supremacists in its midst.  And it at least suggests the possibility that some of the bishops actively support the policies and politics of white supremacy.   By implication, the church's bona fides as workers for peace and justice have been called into question.  All of this certainly warrants a response by the bishops.

59 comments:

  1. "What should the church do about Catholic white supremacists?"
    I don't know, "Love the sinner, but hate the sin"? Maybe teach as vigorously against it as they do gay marriage and birth control. Seeing as how hatred does more harm.
    An article on the America site discusses how there is an "anti-Pope Francis" faction. Be interesting to see if there is overlap between that group and the white supremacist Catholics. I'm willing to bet there is. Pope Francis has actually been pretty outspoken about racial and ethnic justice.

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    1. "An article on the America site discusses how there is an "anti-Pope Francis" faction. Be interesting to see if there is overlap between that group and the white supremacist Catholics."

      Based on what Martin describes in that Sojourners article, I think it's very likely.

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  2. It seems unfortunate that Sojourner Magazine went through such a lot of upheaval over this. Surely it's not the first time a controversial article stirred up a vigorous discussion.

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    1. I am guessing it wasn't the objections of the Catholics, it was Wallis's caving to them which precipitated the resignations.

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  3. Boy, we have some unlikable (by me) people in our local parish, and I heard the tail-end of a "joke" in which the n-word was used by a former priest and usher yukking it up in he vestry. I had walked in to put away the lector notebook and said, "I hope I didn't just hear what I think I did."

    But it is hard for me to believe that anyone in the local parish would belong to an overtly racist group.

    However, I learned that my grandfather was responsible for burning a cross in an family's yard in the 1930s and belonged to an organization of residents who regularly beat up Roma people who camped anywhere near town. His sister Agnes loved Fr. Coughlin.

    So people you know can be full of unpleasant surprises.

    I'd think denial of communion for such people would be appropriate if we're going to withhold from politicians willing to tolerate what the Church teaches is violence against the unborn.

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    1. Jean, good for you for speaking up.

      I'd think that anyone who thinks it's acceptable to tell a joke with an n-word could be at least a fellow traveler of white nationalists. Nationalists don't exist in a vacuum; there is a culture (or sub-culture) which nourishes them and provides a supportive network.

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    2. I never have trouble speaking up. Pretty much the opposite.

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    3. "But it is hard for me to believe that anyone in the local parish would belong to an overtly racist group."

      How about the Trump Republican Party? Does a MAGA hat qualify? Does a Trump 2020 bumper sticker qualify as membership in an overtly racist group? As far as I can tell, they do, and my parish had one of the first and at least two of the second before Trump and deSantis dropped the ball on COVID 19.

      And as Religion News reported (h/t Jim MCrea): "Shortly after Biden announced Kamala Harris, a Baptist, as his running mate, Bishop Thomas Tobin of Rhode Island tweeted: “First time in awhile that the Democratic ticket hasn’t had a Catholic on it. Sad.”

      Well, there is a bishop that is all aboard. As his redeemer would say (and he would echo) sad.

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    4. I'm sure there are Trump supporters who aren't racist, that supported him for SCOTUS appointments, among other things. It should be obvious by now that they have gotten all they can out of him, and it's time to jump ship.
      Yeah I read the tweet by Tobin. Confusing that there are two Bishop Tobins, who are pretty much opposites of each other.

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    5. Jim, not an excuse, but these guys were in their 80s. Father used to tell Irish jokes in sermons (he himself was Irish). We had a talk with my dad about ethnic humor around The Boy. I don't believe Father or Dad were racists, but they certainly had sensibilities that came from living in small-town Michigan where there were no people of color and strict "sundown laws" were enforced. Neither of them would have been caught dead voting for a creature like Trump.

      Tom, most of the parish members are Trumpers. They think about foiling abortion and socialism. They don't get BLM, and they hate seeing young people wild in the streets. But I doubt they're motivated to vote for him because they are white supremacists. Though there is one guy who is always griping about "the people in Flint," which is Michigan code for black people ...

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    6. Jean, What you are describing was a barely credible excuse for voting for him in 2016. If anybody doesn't know what he is and what he is about in 2020 they shouldn't be allowed outside the house without a minder

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    7. Most of these local guys are more dumb than devious. Trump is promising hobs, oil drilling in Alaska, law and order, and who don't support them things?

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  4. I have subscribed to Sojourners for a few years. I like it because of its ecumenical group of writers and editors. I admire what Jim Wallis has accomplished in pulling together religious leaders from a wide range (including Muslim, Jewish, Hindu etc) to work together for social justice.

    Unfortunately, the activist arm of the organization apparently gets significant financial support from Catholic Charities and the bishops. Once again, it seems that a good person essentially sold his editorial soul for money, to keep the good work of Sojourners going.

    His effort to "Reclaim Jesus" is one we all need to support.

    http://www.reclaimingjesus.org/

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  5. Jim, I am surprised that you are surprised that some Catholics, hopefully a fringe, would be attracted to white supremacist ideology. To a certain degree, Benedict laid the groundwork for it by his pronouncements against Muslims, and his permission to restore offensive language against the Jews to Good Friday liturgy.

    "Let us pray also for the faithless Jews: that almighty God may remove the veil from their hearts; so that they too may acknowledge Jesus Christ our Lord. Let us pray. Let us kneel. [pause for silent prayer] Arise. Almighty and eternal God, who dost not exclude from thy mercy even Jewish faithlessness: hear our prayers, which we offer for the blindness of that people; that acknowledging the light of thy Truth, which is Christ, they may be delivered from their darkness. "

    At least Benedict eventually modified that wording after an uproar by Jewish leaders, and at least never allowed the return of the "perfidious Jews" wording much loved by Traditionalists to be used.

    Don't forget - millions of "devout" Catholics and Protestants, in church every Sunday, stayed silent when Hitler attacked the Jews. They were perfectly willing to overlook the racism of their leader (who pledged Germany First and to restore their economy). The Catholic bishops and priests, said nothing while Hitler went about his way destroying the Jews.

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  6. "Jim, I am surprised that you are surprised that some Catholics, hopefully a fringe, would be attracted to white supremacist ideology."

    I'm not surprised - in fact, said twice that I'm not. It isn't news to me that there are bigots within the church. But until I read Martin's article, I wasn't aware that there was a Catholic-identity angle to contemporary white supremacist organizations (part of Donald Trump's core base).

    Yes, Benedict made many missteps as pope. But I don't agree that he "laid the groundwork" for bigotry. That groundwork already had been laid for centuries.

    Regarding anti-Semitism, that Good Friday prayer: for the sake of readers who may not know the context, that particular prayer does not appear and never has appeared in the reformed liturgy of Vatican II which has been used during most of our adult lifetimes. It formerly appeared in the pre-conciliar missal, which the Council reformed - and part of that reform was the elimination of that offensive prayer. A very tiny minority of Catholics use the preconciliar missal today. And it shouldn't be news that there is a strain of anti-Semitism among them. It's amply evident in their brethren who have severed communion with the church, the Society of St. Pius X.

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    1. Yes, I had not remembered the wording about "the faithless Jews" appearing during my lifetime. I suppose I might have attended Good Friday as a child prior to VII, but it would have been in Latin then.
      I looked up Benedict's bringing it back, and he didn't. What he did was give the Motu Proprio, allowing the 1962 Liturgy to be used, which it has been, as you pointed out, by a small fringe minority. It is no surprise at all that there would be a strain of anti-Semitism among the St. PX-ers.
      I have wondered if it would have been better not to give permission for the so-called "Extraordinary Form", since it seems to have been a source of division in the church. But it is probable that the division would exist in any case.

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    2. Katherine, IMHO, of course, it would have been better not to give permission for the so-called "extraordinary form." At the time, its most persistent supporters were the same people who rejected the belated (by centuries) admission that "the Jews" did not crucify Christ, rejected Mass in the vernacular (which was permitted at Trent), rejected engagement in the modern world, and rejected Scripture study (as opposed to pounding on the book). All of these things had been endorsed by the highest authority level in the Church at Vat II. Some of our co-religionists decided they were more Catholic than the pope, who was -- at the time -- Paul VI.

      Bishop Robert Baron, for some reason, felt a need to point out the authoritative (and obvious) nature of such matters at the on-line Napa Institute Forum (a mutual backslapping of rich Catholics) this very year.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tS-1J42jj4

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  7. Jim, In answer to your question, Hell, yes.

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  8. Jim, the motu proprio was bringing it back- maybe not in the VII liturgy, but Benedict gave people permission to use it.

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  9. FWIW, it was actually JPII that issued the "indult" called Ecclesia Dei that permitted the old, preconciliar missal to be used by those who were "attached" to it. That is not to say that then-Cardinal Ratzinger was not involved - I suspect his fingerprints were all over it. And once he became Pope Benedict, he made reconciliation with the schismatics one of the focuses of his papacy, and issued a document that was intended to make it even easier for the pre-conciliar missal to be used. It wasn't exactly "received" well by most of the US bishops.

    I don't remember all the details of the history of the Good Friday prayer and its rewriting. If we must have the old missal still used for prayer, I'm glad it was fixed.

    If ever there was a time for a priest or deacon to preach (sensitively!) about Catholicism's teaching regarding the Jewish people, it would have been this past Sunday, given the readings. Did anyone happen to get a homily that attempted to address it?

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    1. I attended the Saturday evening Mass and the readings were of the feast of the Assumption. But I have mentally groaned through Sundays's gospel many times. It is perhaps my least favorite NT reading. Or let's put it this way, I really seriously dislike this reading, and find it a stumbling block. Usually the homilist attempts to explain that Jesus didn't *really* think that the Caananites (or any non-Jews) were dogs. Our priest has said, it really wasn't as bad as it sounds, because dogs are household pets, and we treat them like family, right? Um, that's a pretty modern interpretation, back then they were unclean animals and kind of lived on the margins. The best homilies on the subject are those that focus on the woman's profession of faith and Jesus' commendation of that. It's just one of those really challenging readings. If I had been a homilist, I would have dodged the gospel and gone with the responsorial psalm. Or the one from Romans. Or even the Isaiah reading, which includes "...The foreigners who join themselves to the Lord..."
      How about you, Jim? Were you ever called on to preach on that Gospel?

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    2. No, I have dodged that bullet so far. Maybe pastors consider that set of readings too hot for deacons to handle so we never get assigned to that Sunday. But I ever get it assigned to me, I promise I won't seek to dilute the meaning of the text. We have to face these problem passages.

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    3. I am reading that this account occurs in Matthew and Mark, but not John and Luke. I guess the meaning is that the Jewish people get first dibs on Jesus' message, but after that it gets opened up to others. I like the woman at the well reading better for that meaning.

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    4. My husband did assist at one of the Masses on Sunday, so I asked him how the priest handled the reading. He said that he emphasized perseverance in prayer, also that mothers are tireless in advocating for their children.

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    5. "Dog" was not a cutsie name to call a Canaanite. Coming from a Jew, it was pretty close to the n-word. Preaching on that Gospel is usually made more difficult than it has to be because we don't want to upset anyone, do we? I mean, sweet Jesus never upset anyone did he? (If he did, how did he pay the church's electric bill?)

      I will admit that of all the Gospel selections, including the Last Supper, that is the one I most wish I had been there for, to watch Jesus's face. But let's go to the record:

      Jesus had just fed 5,000 Jews on their home turf. He had just walked on the water for the Apostles. And what had he gotten: "What's your encore?" "Lord, if you can..." "Meh." And so he said, let's take a break from all this. And they went where they wouldn't run into rolling eyes, and up pops the lady with a sick daughter. The Apostles, all men, tell her to go away. They, VISITORS, tell her to bug off in HER OWN country. Now, two points: The Apostles are stand-ins for today's Roman Catholic Church. And the lady is persistent. The first point is as important as the second.

      Did Jesus -- all-God, yes, but all-man and pretty sick of what the feedback he had been getting -- realize his mission included the Gentiles before this lady went nose-to-nose with him? I don't think so. It took his mother to tell him his time had pretty well better be now at Cana, and it took this unnamed Canaanite woman to tell him about the rest of his story.

      That can be watered down. If Matthew had wanted to water it down, no doubt he could have. So how long, O Lord, how long will it be preached as the Hallmark card it obviously isn't and never was?

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    6. Tom, the ever-interesting question, what did Jesus know, and when did he know it? We see signs that the light was going on at the Finding in the Temple. I'm guessing by the time of his public ministry he knew he would be seguing out of an exclusively Jewish outreach.

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    7. Sometimes, Jesus can be as politically incorrect as a Flannery O'Connor character or Flannery O'Connor herself. What's happening in this Gospel narrative is not limited to the niceness dimension.

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    8. Tom, I like your take and also think it's consonant with that Isaiah passage in the first reading.

      What is difficult to talk about today is Jesus's mission to Jews. Lots of landmines underfoot.

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  10. Well, given that the gospels were written decades after Jesus died, and given that the unknown authors never saw Jesus in person and simply wrote down the stories they heard from others (inadmissible in courts today as hearsay) and given that some gospels don’t agree with the others in everything THEN maybe there is another possibility.

    Maybe Jesus never said what is in this passage of scripture. Since each writer was addressing a particular community, maybe some words attributed to Jesus were put into his mouth by a writer who wished to make some kind of point to those to whom he was addressing his writing. He was reportedly pretty nasty to the this woman, but was pretty kind to other non-Jews, such as the Samaritan woman. He also held up the example of a Samaritan man helping a stranger in need who had been bypassed by his own tribal members, including clergy. The early followers of Jesus self-identified ( to use today’s parlance) as Jews - not as christians in the sense that this is meant today - but Jews who followed Jesus’ teachings (somewhat different in some ways from that of other rabbis), teachings that were pretty much thoroughly rooted in Jewish teachings, what we call today the Hebrew Scriptures. When he told his followers to preach his teachings to all, for all we really know, maybe he simply thought that it meant making converts to Judaism.

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    1. Anne, "hearsay" is a little over the top for what the evangelists were working with. There was an oral tradition about Jesus, and there were communities keeping the traditions alive. If you say these are "only" lore, you wind up with Oedipus Rex or Aeneas or the Indian story about the frog and the scorpion. Good stories, but if that's all they are, not worth building a life around.

      At the same time, it's wisest to take the best contemporary academic advice: Don't try to synchronize the Gospels; treat each as an individualized preachment on the subject of Christ has died; Christ has risen, Christ will come again.

      I would say that Paul seems to refute any theory that Jesus was just trying to make converts to his own form of Judaism. In Romans Paul seems to have wished that Jesus had simply been a reformer, along his own rabbi Gamaliel's lines, but, try as he might, Paul just couldn't buy it.

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    3. There are plenty of oral traditions in the world Tom, that I doubt you would believe for a single moment. Because you weren’t born into the cultures that keep them. Lots of stories about the Buddha. But of course, he is not viewed as a god. But many good teachings. The stories about Muhammad were part of oral tradition too.


      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracles_of_Muhammad

      I like this account of the death of Muhammad

      https://muslimgirl.com/deathofmuhammad/

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    4. Some years back I read an interview with Fr. Jerome Murphy-O’Connor, a noted NT and Pauline scholar, I was fascinated by what he said. Entire interview can be read by following the link to the article following this quote.

      He was preaching Jesus as the Messiah, and that would imply that Jesus was Lord and Son of God.

      How did Paul understand those titles?

      "Son of God" was used in the Old Testament, though not as a divine being. The angels were called sons of God, for example, which meant they were simply at God's service.

      "Lord" is a title of authority, and Jesus was given that title. He didn't possess it by right though, because for Paul Jesus was simply a human being, though a perfect one. He was alive, whereas the rest of humanity was dead. That is why he was able to save humanity: Being alive, he was able to transform those who were dead spiritually into those who were alive spiritually.

      Paul had no sense at all of the divinity of Christ. It's not that he denied it, he just never thought of Christ in those terms. Jesus was the new Adam “


      https://uscatholic.org/articles/201101/road-scholar-3/

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    5. "There are plenty of oral traditions in the world Tom, that I doubt you would believe for a single moment. Because you weren’t born into the cultures that keep them."

      Actually, there are a lot of oral traditions that make a lot of sense to me. Native Americans, many of whose legends I find both compelling and true, would be an example. Actually, as a fifth generation nominal Anglican and a third generation German Catholic, I am not sure what culture I actually was born into. Especially since I have begun feeling Scottish in my old age.

      I know this: The Catholic Church has been around since, oh, let's say 140 AD if you want to be anally retentive about it. The Catholic Church shouldn't have lasted five minutes or so at several periods in its first 1500 years. After that, there were a lot of times when it should not have lasted three minutes. Nevertheless, it is that Church that decided what's in the Bible that most people use, which, in some of its books, predates Jesus Christ by centuries. It is that Church which, on balance, outlasted its schismatics, many of whom were sincere God-seekers. It was good enough for Sts. Lawrence, Thomas Beckett, Francis, Ignatius Loyola, Thomas More, Hildegard of Bingen, Joan of Arc, etc., etc., and Pope John XXIII, Rupert Meyer SJ, Dorothy Day, Oscar Romero, Dan Berrigan, Stan Rother and Christian de Cherge. So I guess it is good enough for me. Maybe if I had infinite time and the inclination, I could come up with something better. But I doubt it.

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    6. Tom, you were born into a Christian, RC culture. You were not born into a Hindu culture in India, or to a Mideast culture whose pie are members of one of the Islamic groups. They are subdivided just as Christians and Jews are. Multiple understandings of what is supposed to be the same religion

      So you were taught from the day you took your first breath that the RC version and understandings of Christian scripture, traditions and stories are “truth”. Total immersion throughout your entire life.

      And it was the same for me. RC from my first breath. Total immersion. I admire many of those whom you name. But I admire others too - great minds who aren’t RC or even Christian. People filled with goodness who live what Jesus taught up in the gospels but who are not Christians.

      Judaism is a lot older religion. Jesus and his apostles were Jews until the day they died. None of them called themselves “Christians “ with a capital C. Perhaps all of us should emulate Jesus, the apostles, St Paul, Mary and Joseph and become Jewish.

      Hinduism has been around longer than either Judaism or Christianity. . But, like Judaism, it is not a religion that actively seeks converts. Islam is not as old as Christianity , but it has been around a very long time. It also seeks converts and is catching up with Christianity in global numbers,

      Longevity doesn’t prove anything. Numbers don’t either.

      Muslims believe the stories that came to them from eyewitnesses to Muhammad’s life and teachings just as christians believe the stories of the eyewitnesses to Jesus’ life.

      There is no way to KNOW that every word in the Bible is literal truth. The RCC and mainline Protestant churches don’t believe that the Bible is word for word literal truth. They don’t even accept the same books for the canon.

      I admire some people who are smart, highly educated, faith-filled people whose faith is not the one I was born into. Whose culture is not the one I was born into.

      The fact that many great people of faith believe in Christianity is proof of nothing. Ghandi was a pretty great faith-filled person also. But I’m not going to become a Hindu because of that.

      I stay where I was rooted basically because that is what I know best. I was born in a Christian culture. The messages of the gospels are inspired. But so are some of those in the Hindu scriptures. As are many of the teachings of the Buddha. And you might even agree with some of the teachings of the Koran, including the honor they give to Mary, the mother of Jesus, a great prophet.

      The fact that the leaders of the early christian church, (which later evolved into RC, Orthodox, Anglican and thousands of Protestant understandings) collected the stories and created a “canon” of what those human leaders believed to be Truth, does not make it so.

      It’s what you BELIEVE- which is fine. It’s called faith for a reason, because not a single word of it can be PROVEN to be true. But you don’t KNOW it’s Truth.

      So take it on faith - based on all the stories and traditions, it seems unlikely that Jesus said such nasty things to the poor woman in that gospel.

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    8. Sigh. I should never do this on my iPad. So it’s people, not pie in paragraph 1.

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    9. Ane, I was not commenting on the age of the Church per se, Judaism obviously had to be older. (Some of the apostles were called Christians by their enemies, by the way.) My point was not its age but the fact that anything that gets screwed up so thoroughly as it does so often should not have lasted long enough for us to be talking about it. But here it is. There is a promise in next Sunday's Gospel on that point. If you can do better, be my guest.

      Gandhi was a nice guy. Not the son of God. Never even claimed to be a son of Man. You argue by tossing out facts faster than they can be batted down. A lot of them have already been conceded.

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    10. Oh, yeah. The other thing. What is shrinking religious adherence in this country especially but also elsewhere is that so many of its adherents and ex-adherents never made the transition from Jesus-for-the-little-children to spirituality for adults. It's bad enough when someone abandons his childish faith to become a none, but it is even worth when a prince of the church insists on his own childish faith as normative for grown-ups.

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    11. Tom, of course Gandhi never claimed to be divine. Even Jesus never overtly claimed to be divine. It was a notion that developed slowly, put forward by his followers. No religion has ever claimed divinity for the founder or inspiration for their religion except Christianity. As you note.

      Buddhism isn’t a religion, as it claims no gods. Hindu religion is very confusing to me, but I finally realized that their gods are really representations of the many facets of the divine. Muslims believe in one God. Jews believe in one God. Christians came up with a thoroughly confusing concept of three persons who are one God. Only Christianity has had the temerity to claim that God became a human being. For me, the resurrection story is of far less importance than the incarnation story. If one can accept the incarnation as true, then one can accept all the rest of it.

      I remember an overheard conversation between one of my sons and a Jewish friend from his soccer team about 7 or 8 years old. Kids think mom-drivers are deaf, so it’s always enlightening to drive your kids here and there. They were talking religion. The Jewish boy said “The difference is that my religion only has one God and yours has three” . Few Christians can give an easily understood explanation of the Trinity. Theologians have probably written millions of words about it, but it is still not something the ordinary human mind can really understand. So basically they give up when someone persists in trying to get a true understanding of it and say “It’s a mystery. Believe it (and be quiet because I can’t really explain it, and your questions are disrupting my lesson plan).”

      I personally don’t really worry about the empty tomb. The physical resurrection of Jesus, true or not, does not really concern me. The challenge is the doctrine of Incarnation. Especially since it seems to be one of those teachings that evolved over a very long period of time, along with the doctrine of Trinity. Apparently even Paul did not think of Jesus in divine terms, according to Fr. Murphy-O’Connor in the interview.

      To say that Christianity must be true because it’s screwed up so often, yet continues, is probably the weakest argument I’ve ever encountered to justify belief in the religion. There are plenty of human institutions, including religions, that have screwed up throughout history that somehow endure.

      Anyway, enough of this.

      Which “prince” of the church are you referring to? And don’t you think it’s time for the RCC to shed some of the non-Jesus like trappings of its imperial past, including language like “prince of the church”?

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    12. That is a whole bunch of other things we could talk about. The main prince of the Church I had in mind will keynote the Trump coronation after sending all the voting cardinals a book that implies he would be a terrific replacement for the cleric currently occupying (don't go away with that beer tray) the vacant throne.

      In response to all the rest, it appears you are tossing the Gospel of John, with all of those "I Ams," out of the canon. There were some bishops on your side back in the (when was it?) fourth century (?). But they lost.

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    13. I am not tossing anything out of the canon. I simply don't accept that every story in the bible is necessarily historically or literally the truth. I really don't care who put what books into the canon, nor much about what they left out. The Gospel of Thomas anyone? The Protestant canon differs from the Catholic canon, but the Catholics will say - we did it first and our version is right!

      I really don't have much use for bishops, now or then.

      Dolan has really shown his true colors, hasn't he.

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    14. Well, how you determine which stories to accept and which ones do not, after 2000 years, meet your exacting standards is a subject for discussion. But it would seem to call for a new thread. The Protestant canon was created by subtraction from the Catholic canon. You seem to want to do even more subtraction. As I say, it is an interesting concept, but for another thread, eh?

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    15. Tom, not an interesting thread. My spirituality was initially formed by RC traditional teaching, some of it involved the scriptures. Certainly Sunday mass highlighted small portions of scripture. I knew nothing of biblical history, or of the various controversies that swirl around about canons, translations, biblical criticism etc until I was in midlife sometime. But now it doesn’t much matter to me. My spiritual understanding does not depend on believing in the inerrancy of scripture. It doesn’t depend on organized religion any more as it did until sometime in my 50s.

      Your spirituality stayed on the path you started out on. My journey has veered quite far from the original path. So we can’t really discuss what should or shouldn’t be in the canon. I honestly have no opinion on that subject. I was just making an observation.

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  11. Paul was also not an eyewitness, but at least he did know the apostles personally.

    Maybe Jefferson’s Bible would be a better guide.,

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/how-thomas-jefferson-created-his-own-bible-5659505/

    And if you really want to challenge your thinking, there is this

    https://www.npr.org/2014/04/07/300246095/if-jesus-never-called-himself-god-how-did-he-become-one

    Basically I wouldn’t fret a whole lot about one passage showing a mean a Jesus. It is very likely that he never said such a nasty thing. It is far more likely that the writer was conveying a message about faith.

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    1. Didn't Jefferson pretty much redact most or all of anything supernatural? I'm not sure he believed in the divinity of Jesus.
      But I agree with you that we shouldn't read too much into this passage, and that it's very likely that the author was trying to make a point.

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    2. It’s all n the Smithsonian article. There were two versions. One had only Jesus’ teachings. The other included events in his life

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  12. ""hearsay" is a little over the top for what the evangelists were working with. There was an oral tradition about Jesus, and there were communities keeping the traditions alive. If you say these are "only" lore, you wind up with Oedipus Rex or Aeneas or the Indian story about the frog and the scorpion"

    We can even (and probably should) distinguish what is generally understood as oral tradition from the Gospels. What we know today as Mark, Matthew and Luke would have been composed within the lifetime ambit of eyewitnesses (i.e. disciples and apostles) to Jesus's life (and death and resurrection). Some scholars would even say the same about John. The Gospels are closer to contemporaneous accounts than they are to oral tradition as commonly understood. And of course Paul attests, not only to his mystical experience, but his interactions with eyewitnesses. None of this is comparable to, say, ancient Native American creation myths.

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  13. The oral tradition and myth are not the same thing.

    Oral traditions are based on historical facts and acquire accretions over time that reshape and embellish the story to speak to changing times or different cultures.

    Studying hagiography is like going on an archaeological dig in which you have layers and layers of stories that people have added over time and space, sometimes for nefarious purposes.

    This did not happen with the Gospels. They were written down when there were still eye-witnesses around.

    Holy Spirit aside, we have Gospel texts that are early enough not to have been subject to too many accretions (though I believe there are some), and are generally reliable.

    A wildly inaccurate story of Jesus's life written within a generation or two of his life for his followers would have been rejected by those who knew him or knew of him through those who did. Think about the way out family tells stories about ancestors who lived 150 years ago. If you start embellishing, some humorless cousin will say, "Hold up. That's not how Gramma told it."

    Many details might be "off," but I think honest scholars would tell you there is more history than hagiography in the Gospels.

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    1. Yes, Jean, I agree that there is fundamental truth in the accounts of the recorded accounts and life of Jesus in the scriptures. However, many details are probably off; some are likely deliberately untrue factually because they were meant to convey a larger truth.

      I agree with Borg - the scriptures represent the understanding of God's actions in the world by the ancient Hebrews and of the teachings of Jesus by the early community of Jesus' followers - initially mostly Jews, later mostly gentiles, later all called "christians" who were developing a new religion that was separated from Judaism.

      Thus I don't get upset about the gospel about the Canaanite woman.

      As far as trusting the absolute validity of eyewitnesses goes, just check with judges, jurors, lawyers, police, victims and alleged perpetrators about the reliability of eyewitness accounts - which often differ wildly from one account to another.

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    2. Yes, I'd say Borg has it about right, Anne.

      Translations of the Gospels are where inaccuracies or outright falsifying might occur.

      I assume the Church has some manuscript experts/drudges somewhere who keep applying the latest in linguistic and historical to the original texts in order to reach a more perfect understanding. Exactly how/when/whether that filters down to the laity is anyone's guess.

      My take on the Canaanite woman for what little it's worth is that Jesus immediately wanted to help her but knew that those with him needed an empathy lesson. So he does exactly what they want, and my guess is that, in Jesus's mouth, their own prejudices and hatreds made them ashamed. Plus the lady had a good comeback, and he presented her as an example to the disciples who wanted to get rid of her.

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    3. Jean, your take on this passage s certainly possible. Would make for a better homily than most.

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  14. Tom Blackburn, I see that Laura Loomer won a Republican primary for a congressional seat in Florida. Is that in your district? She seems pretty wacko. Surprising that she is a Jew going with an off-the-deep-end fascist agenda.

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    1. I got two words for you: Stephen Miller.

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    2. Yeah that's right, he is Jewish. I think I read that his old rabbi said he had gone off the rails, and his family doesn't have a lot to do with him.

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    3. Laura Loomer. Right. Get Trump, you can't be surprised if you get Loomer. She had an advantage -- there were five other Republicans in the race. The sane ones split the vote five ways, leaving Loomer and her base to come out on top.

      She will run against Lois Frankel, former state House member, former mayor of West Palm Beach and incumbent, who is probably in a flop sweat even though the district is safely blue. Lois had opposition in the Democratic primary from the left, an AOC type. Which is a howling laugh because all of her previous intra-party opponents said she was way off to the left. Actually, Lois grew up liberal and is still astonished when she meets people who didn't. Loomer may get 15% against her.

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    4. Stephen Miller seems to be a disturbed personality. Hence his association with Trump. The White House must be about like a lunatic asylum these days.

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    5. I did see that Stephen Miller got married not too long ago. I'd say "poor girl", except how could she not know what she was getting into? He's made no secret of what he was like.

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