Monday, September 3, 2018

Critics & Censors, Then & Now

 An echat with Gene Palumbo reminded me that I still own a rare book, so I decided to re-read it. The book is titled Criticism and Censorship,  by Walter Kerr, the distinguished drama critic for the New York Herald Tribune and, later, The Times.
 It's only 86 pages, and the reason it is rare is that it was originally the 1954 Gabriel Richard Lecture at Trinity College in Washington, D.C. Bruce Publishing Co., a conservative Catholic house no longer in business, gave it the kind of press run you would normally give an academic paper.  Then Time magazine gave the book a money review. Orders came pouring in. But by then Bruce had melted the printing plates to re-use the lead. But I had my copy.
 Re-reading it reminded me of the art vs. censors climate of the 1950s, and I was struck by how much the very different climate 65 years later resembles it.


 Kerr set up the discussion by stating the obvious -- that censors and what he calls critics (as stand-ins for the arts in general, especially film and theater and, to some extent books) have been at war for centuries. The critics want to view art within art's own values and rules; the censors want to apply an outside standard. Both sides seek total victory over the other. As of then (1954), the critics were having things pretty much their own way. Formal censorship was being strangled in the courts.
 The censors had shifted to a strategy of making everyone a censor, alerting them to the dangers coming from the "art-for-art's-sake crowd" on all sides. The strategy was typified by the Catholic Legion of Decency, which stood everyone up at Mass and got them to be on the lookout for sex (mostly) and other inducements to sin in the movies. Kerr, who was Catholic, conceded that the Church was the custodian of the Index of Forbidden Books, so when artists saw announced Catholics they saw potential censors.
 Not that the artists were totally misled. A reader of the New York diocesan press a few years earlier, looking for entertainment in the Big City, would have learned that the only thing suitable for his Catholic eyes was Howdy Mr. Ice of 1950.
 (Kerr didn't go into detail, but I looked it up. Among shows unsuitable for Catholics were Tennessee Williams' A Streetcar Names Desire, Shakespeare's King Lear [reference to cheeks?] and Peter Pan. Also, Guys and Dolls -- in which the original bet was that Guy could bed Sarah, but when it was explained to Abe Burrows that Catholics would boycott that, the plot was changed to  bet he could get her to take a trip to Cuba with him. Obviously, euphemism didn't save it from the Catholic press.)
 Kerr makes the case that approaching a work of art with a Legion of Decency mind precludes understanding the art. If you are watching for, and expecting, the bad, you will never see the good, much less understand it.
 At the same time, he gives some censorship its due. He cites cases in which the very people who are opposed to censorship anytime, anywhere or in any form make an exception for something that they think really would be bad. The sudden disappearance of a British film of Oliver Twist in which Alec Guinness was maybe rather too good as Fagin is one example. And the early days of television brought out some unexpected critics, mostly psychologists, Kerr dryly noted.
 And, Kerr notes, the State Department employees charged with deciding what to send overseas were guided by the principle of what contained material that could be used for propaganda against us. Which was censorship again without reference to art. State blew away Porgy and Bess,
 Kerr ends by appealing to the social sciences to find out how art really works on people's minds, a subject about which we know as little as Aristotle did when he wrote his Poetics.
 Well, that hasn't happened.
 The "critics" have pretty much had their way with sex and violence. If The Passion of the Christ can be shown in theaters and churches, there isn't much violence that's unacceptable.  We still don't know what effect Mel Gibson's devout adherence to more than the Bible tells us might have had on young or unformed or disoriented or even adult minds. But there's no stopping it.
 However, the "censors" have been very successful in applying DIY censorship to politics. We can all  live in our own little bubble of truth and sniff at the other guy's "fake news."
 I wonder what effect that has on young, unformed, disoriented and even adult minds.

 


45 comments:

  1. I remember the Legion of Decency being a big deal when I was a kid. The movie listings came out in our diocesan paper, and the sisters at school told us to always have our parents check the rating before we went to a movie. Though my mom was more likely to flag something for violence than sex. I assume Ben Hur had a good Legion of Decency rating, but Mom nixed it for excessive violence.

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    1. I still haven't watched "The Passion of the Christ" all the way through. Not planning to, either. I understand that it draws on the visions of Anne Catherine Emmerich about as much as it does Scripture.

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    2. I had a French "minor" in college (econ major) and spent a year in Paris as a student. So I read a whole lot of French literature in my Catholic college(s) (including the one in Paris - l'Institut Catholique). Most of our assigned reading had been on the Index of Forbidden Books.

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    3. Katherine, I chose not to go see the Passion of the Christ.

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  2. I didn't grow up Catholic, and movies/books/music were never curtailed. My other banned a lot of TV shows because she didn't want to have to sit through them, so we sneaked over to our babysitter's house to watch them.

    My Catholic friends were not allowed to go see A Hard Day's Night, Woodstock, or Alice's Restaurant. I remember lending them my copy of Rosemary's Baby, and Carrie, which they hid in their closet.

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    1. I guess nowadays we do a different type of censorship. Mark Twain and Laura Ingalls Wilder get flagged for other reasons. I have been sorting through some books, and had intended to give my granddaughters my copy of Rudyard Kipling's Just So Stories, which my siblings and I had enjoyed as children. But then I remembered some language in "How the Leopard Got His Spots" which would definitely not be acceptable now. So probably not.
      However I remember asking my grandmother if I could read her copy of John Steinbeck's Red Pony. She said, "Yes, as long as you remember that just because a character in a story uses bad words doesn't mean that it's okay for you to." It felt good to be trusted to have a little discernment.

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    2. Katherine - that kind of decision-making is the 'censorship from the left' I mentioned in an earlier comment. Of course, the censorship criteria could be different when the intended audience is children vs. adults.

      One example that I think is pertinent to Tom's thread: the alleged Christmas classic film "White Christmas" has a minstrel show number. I'm told that it's now frequently cut when the movie is aired at holiday time. Is it better to not ruffle feathers by cutting it, or do we preserve it for viewers for other reasons (perhaps because it's considered an important film for other reasons and so should be shown even with its original flaws, or perhaps because even the minstrel show number has some art qua art merit - the singing or the choreography or the film directing or some such - that makes it worth keeping despite its painful flaw) and treat it as an occasion to remember an unattractive aspect of that era?

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    3. Yes, the -isms of literary criticism--marxism, feminism, etc.--can be awfully didactic. In researching my paper on so-called old-adult literature, I discovered elementary school pedagogues in the 1970s who wanted to push back against ageist stereotypes and called for suppression of elderly characters that were little, lonely, sick, and poor. The idea was to not scare the hell out of kids about getting old.

      Often these well intentioned efforts lead to backlash. You can see efforts to normalize elderly outliers--the folks who are climbing mountains at age 80 or who look youthful at 70--in AARP magazine. More pathetically, I see it in my cancer group among people who tell me they're thinking positively so they can beat our disease, for which there is no cure, and live to be 100.

      Using censorship and suppression to try to make the world better or push certain alternate realities has been around forever, transcends political boundaries. And, unless I wake up tomorrow looking like Susan Sarandon, I'm going to venture that it never really works. Just results in a lot of people wondering why they're not "normal."

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    4. Censorship of children's classics is of personal importance to me. I grew up as a typical white kid, and didn't know any minorities personally until I was in college. Now I am the grandmother of 3 bi-racial children. One son's wife is African American. One son's wife is Viet Namese.

      I have been a bit dismayed at realizing that there is some rather overt racism in some of the books I loved as a child. One of my very favorites was The Secret Garden. As an adult, as the grandparent of an African-American/Caucasian child, I was shocked at a passage that I had never noticed when I read the book (more than once) as a child. The following is a description of one conversation between Mary (the little girl who grew up in India, but now lives with an uncle in England because her parents died) and the maid, Martha.

      When Mary wakes up on her first morning at her uncle's mansion, she finds Martha cleaning the bedroom hearth. During their conversation Mary say that things were different in India. Martha responds by saying "I dare say it's because there's such a lot o' blacks there instead o' respectable white people." Martha also says that she looked at Mary during the night to see if she was black. Mary is furious at the thought and tells Martha "You don't know anything about natives. They're not people—they're servants who must salaam to you."

      With some books the adult can "edit" as they read to young children if they stumble across a racist passage that they had been unaware of. But the Laura Ingalls books and The Secret Garden and others are for children old enough to read them by themselves.

      There are many racist stereotypes of Asians, Native Americans, etc as well in classic American children's literature.

      So, how would all of you - Jean, Jim, Katherine, and Tom, handle this situation if these grandchildren were your grandchildren?

      Is it always wrong to censor? The hype by Trump about political correctness got a lot of cheers. However, a lot of what they call "PC" is simply being polite and civil.

      Should there be different standard for adults. books for children's books, especially the classics, which are far more likely to have had racism and prejudice as a given?

      Should new versions be issued for today's kids that have had the racism and stereotypes edited out?

      How old should kids be before parents can talk to them about the racism in the books they read and have the children grasp what the parents are trying to teach them - before they read the books?

      There is racism and anti-semitism, and negative stereotypes in many of the children's classics. Little Women is one (another of my childhood favorites).

      A couple of interesting takes on both sides of the debate by parents of mixed race children.

      https://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/17/magazine/how-to-read-a-racist-book-to-your-kids.html?_r=2&ref=magazine&pagewanted=all


      https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/how_to_really_read_racist_books_to_your_kids/success

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    5. If you don't feel comfortable with some children's classics, don't read them to or give them to your grandchildren. That's not censorship, it's your choice.

      Is it always wrong to censor? Yeah, I think so. Yanking Harry Potter or Dr. Doolittle or Romeo and Juliet off library shelves gets me riled up. to

      That said, so do parents who don't bother to engage with their kids about what they read.

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    6. I agree about taking classics off library shelves. And I think that with older children - white and minorities - the racism that was simply accepted at the time the books were written is worth a serious discussion.

      Some of these books have overall positive messages and interesting stories, but are marred because of the odd sentence or passage that reflects the racism. With really young children, I think it's hard to discuss racism. I also think that if I were reading a classic to one of my grandchildren who are still not reading, I would simply edit out the couple of problematic passages. Once older, if I chose to give books that are classics, are mostly great stories but have some racism, I would probably discuss it with the child first - to warn him or her. Discussing the racist passages of these books with a white child is one kind of conversation, because it lies in the realm of the academic for them - nobody is going to look down on them because of the color of their skin. It is a different conversation with children who are not pure white, because they may experience racism personally, directed to them personally simply because of their complexion and features.

      But all parents should have these conversations with their children and perhaps some of these now-problematic books could be a launch point for these discussions.

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    7. Anne, I agree that these books can be used as a teaching moment. I would hate for the classics not to be available to young people. For one thing they are a window into understanding the past.

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    8. Anne - I read to my kids a lot when they were younger. But once each of them had outgrown "Hop on Pop" and "One Fish Two Fish Red Fish Blue Fish" they showed very little interest in the books I remembered from my own childhood. A big part of the reason was that they happened to be growing up in the midst of the Harry Potter phenomenon, so in our house it was all Harry Potter all the time at bed time, pretty much all the way through all of their childhoods. They also latched onto some series like Magic Treehouse which must have come along after my childhood, and Captain Underpants that were pretty new. The girls showed no interest in the Little House books, although they did read the book series that accompanied the American Girl dolls (which, again, were pretty new then). The boys sort of moved directly from Harry Potter to gaming. Well, I guess the girls did, too.

      If I ran across problematic passages when reading aloud to young children, I'd edit them on the fly. Honestly, I'd probably do the same for older children and adults. I guess that makes me a censor. But I don't want their exposure to those iffy ideas to be heard through my omniscient-narrator voice. I think my reading something aloud implies that the work has my imprimatur of approval.

      It's different if we're watching a film or a television show together. Those could become occasions for teaching moments. Although I'm not immediately thinking of any examples.

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    9. Jim, what do you think would happen if you read something to a group of older kids or adults that you found offensive? Would your editing the text save them from something? Would it save you from something? Would you explain at some point you had expurgated the text? How would you respond if your bowdlerization were found out?

      I never censored anything The Boy read, but he no longer goes to Mass and does not consider himself a Catholic. You would edit, and your kids are still in a state of grace. Perhaps what strikes me as a dishonest practice would have made a difference?

      I don't honestly know.

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    10. My kids are like other kids. Although I love them all and am proud of them all, they're old enough to decide for themselves whether they're going to go to church, and not all of them decide to.

      I'd have a hard time reading Huck Finn aloud to older kids because of the racial language, even though I don't doubt that (as we say in the church) it's a highly proclaimable text. I guess that avoiding the exercise saves me from the necessity of enunciating the N-word. But I don't have a problem at all with Huck Finn being assigned to high school kids to read - in fact, I think it verges on educational malpractice if kids are allowed to get a high school diploma without having read it, and I have no patience with proposals to ban it or clean it up.

      I found "The Book of Mormon" to be challenging to sit through (although I also enjoyed it immensely) because it's not just poking wicked fun (and worse) at LDSers but ultimately at all people of faith. I wouldn't bring a middle school class to see it on a field trip. A lot of times the word "subversive" gets applied to works of art in a rather trivial way, but I think "The Book of Mormon" really is subversive.

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    11. It's odd that Kerr never mentioned the kiddies, and I didn't think about them when I was writing the post. I still remember feeling creepy when the teacher read "Little Black Sambo" to us in first grade; there were African Americans in our class.

      We "edited" for our kids.

      Huck Finn: Our men's group (I am about to get ready) was using a book. We reached page 146 and by common consent, but without talking about it, we quit and switched to the readings for the upcoming Sunday (and scandals in the Church). I write a weekly email with a list of who we prayed for and what's coming up next week, and so "next week" was consistently page 146 for two years. I managed to write 146 in Roman numerals and mathematical formulae, and finally settled on what New Yorker did with The Fantastiks. Instead of a review, they printed Joyce's Ulysses after the show's details, one sentence at a time. I chose Huck Finn, but when we hit the first reference to Jim, on page 3, I paused, hesitated, and dropped that project. We are still on page 146, in case there's a test.

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    12. It's funny, but the only book I can remember my mom "editing" when reading aloud, was a book of Bible stories. I could always tell when she was skipping something. I was old enough at that point to read myself, and was nosy enough to look up the part in the book that she skipped. It would always be an Old Testament reference to God being vindictive and violent. When asked about it she said, "God hasn't changed, but our understanding of him has."

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    13. The parish organized a viewing of The Passion of the Christ. I told The Boy he could go, but he would have to pony up the money himself because I was not putting royalty money in the pocket of a drunken anti-semite like Mel Gibson. He went and said he didn't get how parents could send their kids to that and then object to violent video games. Interesting discussion.

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    14. Jim, yess Harry Potter was after my kids would have been interested. I think the oldest was in high school around the time the first book came out. The youngest was middle school age, but he never had an interest in Harry Potter either. Probably a good thing. A friend moved recently, and she gave me the first book, since she was having to give away a lot of books (most to the Friends of the Library). I still haven't gotten around to reading it, but will. I need to see what all the hoopla was about.

      I had all boys, and Little Women and The Secret Garden etc never came off the shelf. Yet, they very much enjoyed the videos of The Secret Garden and also Anne of Green Gables. My oldest, now in his late 30s, let me know recently that the sequels - "Anne of Avonlea" and "Anne with an E" are on Netflix (and PBS I think).

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    15. Jean, The Boy was exactly right in pointing out the hypocrisy of pushing kids to see the Passion of the Christ, and complaining about violence in video games or other movies. I chose not to see the movie for two reasons - first was the violence, and second, was that it was Mel Gibson's movie. Mel Gibson - another "devout" Catholic.

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    16. Well, Anne, Gibson is conspicuously more Catholic than the pope. He is so devout, he'd probably vote for Vigano at the next conclave if he were a cardinal and were not making more money with violent movies.

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    17. I saw the Passion of the Christ when it first came out. I thought it was pretty interesting, although apparently not interesting enough to have sought it out since then. I'd encourage everyone here to see it once - in my opinion, it wouldn't be a waste of your time. Not like that new Mission Impossible iteration we settled for a few weeks ago because Sorry to Bother You was sold out.

      As for the violence in Passion of the Christ: A Clockwork Orange is more violent. So are the first Deadpool movie and (I think, based on the first 20 minutes or so that I watched) the first Kingsman movie. I didn't think Passion of the Christ was unbearably violent. That idea either was propagated by parents who had been feeding their children a steady diet of Veggie Tales, or was a meme of malice by those who wanted the movie to flop.

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    18. Anne, I'll be curious to hear what you think about Harry Potter. The first two in the series are very good as children's literature, in my opinion. And after that, you're so hooked you'll want to read the others.

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    19. Isn't Mel Gibson sort of a sedevacantist? I go to Stations of the Cross, and Holy Week services during Lent. That fills my quota for Catholic guilt. I don't feel that my religious formation is lacking by missing Gibson's epic. Though my husband watches it every Lent and finds it moving. To each his own.
      We have seen the first two Harry Potter movies and kind of liked them. Haven't read the books; maybe I will someday. My kids didn't get into them; I think they were older than the target audience. Though they still like the superhero movies; X Men, The Avengers, etc. It's funny, my 10 year old granddaughter likes those too. She's outgrown the Disney Princesses already.

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    20. Harry Potter is pretty much Arthurian legend reworked. The Boy loved it, and at least twice we were at midnight book store releases. Glad those days are over, though we enjoyed reading them as a family. A librarian friend turned us on to Edgar Eager's books, which we.also.liked.

      I assume The Passion is the Christ is violent because a Roman scourging and crucifixion was violent. I just don't want Jesus filtered through Mel Gibson's lens. b

      Ugh. Veggie Tales. The Catholic preschool and daycare was high on those. The Baptist in-laws gave us some, probably in retaliation for the picture books about Koko I gave their kids, which they were not allowed to look at because I'm their Flat Earth heads it was.pushing evolution.

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    22. "at least twice we were at midnight book store releases"

      Yep, us too, at least once. Then the series ended. Then the bookstore closed. I'm pretty sure those latter two events are related - in fact, cause and effect. I don't believe there is now a single bookstore in our "village" of 75,000 people. I guess Amazon won.

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    23. "Veggie Tales." Now there is something I am glad I forgot until you brought them back to mind, Jean. Y'know, after Dr. Seuss everything you can read to kids sounds so ... uninspired.

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  3. "Also, Guys and Dolls -- in which the original bet was that Guy could bed Sarah, but when it was explained to Abe Burrows that Catholics would boycott that, the plot was changed to bet he could get her to take a trip to Cuba with him. "

    I never knew that. It puts somewhat of a different spin on "If I Were A Bell". Well, I guess it was always there.

    Charles Morris once ventured, IIRC, that Hollywood directors, writers and actors were able to produce great works of art within the constraints of the code (of which the Catholic church was among the chief imposers) that studios abided by during their golden age. That the raunchy, trashy explicitness that reigned during the 60s and 70s and afterward didn't make for better art. Morris certainly wasn't mounting a full-throated defense of censorship. He was pointing out that life under the code wasn't exactly an artistic ice age.

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  4. Conservatives are concerned these days about censorship coming from the left, to snuff out any expressions which don't meet some indeterminate criteria of progressiveness or correctness (as when right-wing speakers are prevented, sometimes forcibly, from appearing on college campuses). And to promote works that promote progressiveness and correctness, which sounds like a new iteration of imposing criteria from "outside" to judge the merits of a work.

    I wrote a note recently to the management of Steppenwolf, which is one of Chicago's eminent professional theater companies, asking them to please use criteria beyond politics for selecting works to perform. I don't have much patience with didacticism.

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    1. Jim, It is so hard to avoid politics when even the pre-game rituals of athletes are placed on a level of importance with tariffs, handshakes with thugs and threats of war. While, at the same time, the liberals you complain about attempt to enforce niceness on others, even if they have to beat up the others to make them nice.

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    2. I have never enjoyed fantasy or science fiction, in books or in movies, as a kid or adult. I guess I lack an imagination, or at least a certain kind of imagination. Never liked magic either.

      I confess I really don't know what the Harry Potter books are about. I know the kids go to witch school and see cover photos of kids flying around Christ Church College at Oxford. Never interested me, but I will read the book, and, who knows, maybe I will be hooked. I did enjoy the Arthurian legends.

      I absolutely loathe graphic violence in movies. My kids know this. Once they were college age, they started censoring movies for me. My husband and I never go to movies - it's not been a habit. I prefer to read. We've probably been in a movie theater fewer than a dozen times in our 45 year marriage. As a kid, I loved the musicals, but we had little money for movies as a kid, so it was a very rare treat. But, I also remember seeing Exodus as a kid - my best friend was Jewish and her mom took us. I would like to see it again, as I really had no idea at the time what it was all about.

      I watch movies mostly for escapism. The real world is grim enough, I don't need to spend two hours watching misery on the big screen, whether psychological misery or violence or horror (saw one Alfred Hitchcock and never watched another).

      Once VHS and DVD came in, we watched more movies, because the kids brought them home.

      They banned me from watching Saving Private Ryan. They told me not to watch Braveheart (I guess Mel Gibson is into violence). And others.

      My sons were never into superhero movies. They did like the Star Wars movies, and we watched all of the first trilogy. We also watched the Indiana Jones series, which we enjoyed. My eldest was, and is, the movie buff. (He is now an independent TV producer - the starving artist of the family, since "independent" means sometimes he has work and sometimes he doesn't, and it's mostly TV commercials)

      His favorite movies that I remember included Glory (about the black unit in the Union Army), Schindler's List, Amistad (which I did not watch), and other history movies. Besides liking history, he loved romance - so he liked movies like Titanic. He liked the film versions of some Shakespeare (he's a big Shakespeare fan) such as Much Ado about Nothing. He was fascinated with movies big on special effects - Star Wars, Jurassic Park etc.

      We mostly watched what the kids picked, and those were mostly the eldest son's picks. Recently he recommended The Queen of Katwe, and I too recommend the movie if you haven't seen it. He has worked in Africa a number of times in recent years, and is attuned to African cultures (he is the son whose wife is African American).

      I loved Enchanted April.

      Most of the movies we've seen recently have been on airplanes. That's where I saw Still Alice (which I thought was very good, especially since a number of our family and friends have had Alzheimer's), and Queen of Katwe.

      I never liked the bible movies. Still don't. Never watch the annual parade that appears on TV during Lent.

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    3. Leaving aside the graphic violence of Passion of the Christ, I also object to atonement theology - the teachings that Jesus was "sent" to earth to suffer an excruciating death so that God would forgive human sin. A human sacrifice instead of an animal, to appease an angry, vengeful God. The lamb of God. A blood sacrifice to God.

      I decided to look up atonement theology just now, and came across an article that defines many of the problems I have had with this theology for the last 20 or 30 years of my life. Glad to see it's reaching mainstream Catholic publications.

      For me, the Eucharist (the "sacrifice" of the mass) is not reenacting a "blood sacrifice", made so sins could be forgiven, as the prayers say. The eucharist is not literally Jesus body and blood in the form of bread and wine. I am much more comfortable with the EC’s understanding of “real presence” than the Catholic teaching. But even they refer to the “sacrifice” of “body and “blood”. There are a lot of prayers I don’t join in with even in the EC. (I stop speaking after the first few words of the creed, actually). Fortunately, the EC does not have a 1000 page book of "must believes" in order to be there and receive the bread and wine. They have open communion, so that all "who are drawn by Christ" may receive. Works for a heretic like me.

      To me, the mass, the eucharist, is a reenactment of the Last Supper - a gathering of friends and family, who share a meal, including bread and wine, "in memory" of him, to remind us of what he taught through words and through his life and death.

      The way I read it, and understand the passages, Jesus spoke of the bread and wine being his body and blood as metaphor for his own life - he gave his "all" to teach us how to live. For me, the only thing that makes sense of all this (if God is a God of love) is that the torture and the dying were the consequence of living truthfully and "speaking truth to power". He taught us that living as he lived, as he taught us to live, could indeed have dire consequences. It was not necessary for him to die for God to forgive human sin.

      I prefer the emphasis of the original meaning of “eucharist” - with a focus on grace and thanksgiving rather than on blood sacrifice to appease a vengeful God.

      Origin

      late Middle English: from Old French eucariste, based on ecclesiastical Greek eukharistia ‘thanksgiving,’ from Greek eukharistos ‘grateful,’ from eu ‘well’ + kharizesthai ‘offer graciously’ (from kharis ‘grace’).



      These ideas and more are discussed in the article below from US Catholic.

      https://www.uscatholic.org/church/2012/03/us-and-our-salvation

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    4. Anne, That is interesting, and maybe not as novel as you seem to think. I am tempted to respond at longer length. But I am more tempted to suggest that you open a separate thread on the topic.

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  5. Tom, I know that my understandings are not "novel". I seldom read US Catholic, which seems to have the wide middle of the RC church as its target market. Very mainstream, very safe and don't rock the boat from what I knew of it years ago. So I really didn't expect to see that article in that publication.

    I started pondering the whole "sacrifice of the mass", "Jesus's death redeemed us from our sins theology" many years ago. I tend to think about things a long time, argue with myself in my head, until it bothers me enough to break down and study what others - more educated than I - say. So, when I finally decided to look to see what others said about atonement theology, I quickly came across articles and books by people who also did not accept the standard theology of atonement according to Anselm, I studied a bit more. I learned about Abelard's views, and those of Duns Scotus.

    I like Duns Scotus, the bits I know, which is not a lot. Perhaps if I studied him more, I would become disenchanted. But his focus on the incarnation strikes a chord with me. The christian church says that the most important thing, the "must believe of all the must believes" to be a christian, is the bodily resurrection of Jesus. I tend to disagree with that. I think the foundational doctrine is the Incarnation. If the Incarnation is true, resurrection would be a piece of cake. But, my personal opinion is that it really doesn't matter if Jesus' body was physically resurrected. It was his life that was the primary point, more than his death or the aftermath.

    Richard Rohr has a simple summary -

    John Duns Scotus (1266-1308), said Christ was Plan A from the very beginning (Colossians 1:15-20, Ephesians 1:3-14). Christ wasn’t a mere Plan B after the first humans sinned, which is the way most people seem to understand the significance of the death and resurrection of Jesus. The Great Mystery of Incarnation could not be a mere mop-up exercise, a problem solving technique, or dependent on human beings messing up.

    Scotus taught that the Enfleshment of God had to proceed from God’s perfect love and God’s perfect and absolute freedom (John 1:1-18), rather than from any mistake of ours. Did God intend no meaning or purpose for creation during the first 14.8 billion years? Was it all just empty, waiting for sinful humans to set the only real drama into motion? Did the sun, moon, and galaxies have no divine significance? The fish, the birds, the animals were just waiting for humans to appear? Was there no Divine Blueprint (“Logos”) from the beginning? Surely this is the extreme hubris and anthropomorphism of the human species!

    The substitutionary atonement “theory” (and that’s all it is) seems to imply that the Eternal Christ’s epiphany in Jesus is a mere afterthought when the first plan did not work out. I know there are many temple metaphors of atonement, satisfaction, ransom, “paying the price,” and “opening the gates”; but do know they are just that—metaphors of transformation and transitioning. Too many Christians understood these in a transactional way instead of a transformational way.

    How and why would God need a “blood sacrifice” before God could love what God had created? Is God that needy, unfree, unloving, rule-bound, and unable to forgive? Once you say it, you see it creates a nonsensical theological notion that is very hard to defend.


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    1. Tom, I forgot to open a new thread. But, I'm not sure that those here are really interested. This site seems to be more focuses on politics (church and state) than on faith matters. You and I are the only ones talking about this.

      I tried a couple of times on dotCommonweal and was mostly ignored. Fr. K responded once, but he simply repeated the same stuff I was taught starting in first grade in parochial school - didn't really address the questions that I raised.

      But, if you have insights to add I would love to hear them. I know you are far more theologically literate than I am!

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    2. Anne, I'll bite on a faith thread. Not sure I have anything worthwhile to say, but it beats Trump's stunt of the day; or maybe it's stunt of the hour.

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  6. This one won't be "on topic," but I won't let that stop me. In his post, Tom Blackburn refers to an echat we had. The mention of Kerr got me recalling something very fine he wrote about Eugene O'Neill's "Long Day's Journey into Night." I'd like you all to be able to see it, so I'll paste it in here, along with O'Neill's dedication to the play.

    First, Kerr:

    I think he wrote it as an act of forgiveness. Not as a pontifical forgiveness, mind you, not as an absolution for the harm that has been done to him. That he was damaged by his family is only a fact now, a piece of truth to be put down out of respect for the whole truth; there is no residual rancor. He seems to be asking forgiveness for his own failure to know his father, mother, and brother well enough at a time when the need for understanding was like an upstairs cry in the night; and to be reassuring their ghosts, wherever they may be, that he knows everything awful they have done, and loves them.

    Eugene O’Neill -- dedication to "Long Day's Journey into Night"

    For Carlotta, on our 12th wedding anniversary

    Dearest: I give you the original script of this play of old sorrow, written in tears and blood. A sadly inappropriate gift, it would seem, for a day celebrating happiness. But you will understand. I mean it as a tribute to your love and tenderness which gave me the faith in love to face my dead at last and write this play -- write it with deep pity and understanding and forgiveness for all the four haunted Tyrones.

    These years, Beloved One, have been a Journey into Light -- into love. You know my gratitude. And my love!

    Gene

    Tao House, July 22, 1941



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    1. Where Gene keeps these little gems he can trot out on any unlikely occasion remains a mystery to me.

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    2. It felt good to read something so deeply human and healing in this time of venom. Thanks, Jean.

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    3. Thanks Gene. As Stanley said, "...healing in this time of venom."

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    4. Maybe David Nickol could put you on the list of contributors; would like to see you post.

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