https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6RgaPTo4hE
Thomas Tallis' chorale, "If Ye Love Me" is beautiful. But what moved me most was the video image of people on a journey, carrying lights. Or maybe the lights were coming from them. I found it a lovely and comforting metaphor for our souls' journey to God.
Thanks, Katherine. I am always playing with the idea of Purgatory as an extension of the journey to heaven. Usually I imagine an inquisition type affair where we are forced to confess our sins and feel terrible by Gestapo type minions.
ReplyDeleteThis was a nice image, people lighting the way for each other along the road as they make their way through the twilight and toward the bright face of God.
Our local parishes don't do All Souls, so we have prayers at home.
The words to Thomas Tallis's hymn is taken from the Gospel of John. I can never make out the words, though the music is lovely.
John 14:15–17
If ye love me,
keep my commandments,
and I will pray the Father,
and he shall give you another comforter,
that he may 'bide with you forever,
e'en the spirit of truth.
Thanks for the words and the Scripture reference, Jean. Our parish has a scroll that someone wrote in calligraphy the names of the parishioners who have died in the recent past. I suppose it goes back maybe five years. They bring it out for the month of November and hang it from the pulpit. Unfortunately it now drags the ground. But is a nice remembrance.
DeleteI like the painting! There are some really nice pieces of art for All Souls Day. I don't believe in purgatory, though. There's nothing about it in the bible, and when Jesus was on the cross he told the thief that he would be with him in paradise that very day. I think the church guys made it up so they could sell people indulgences :)
ReplyDeleteI see in the comments on youtube that the video clip is from the old Disney Fantasia movie, which I have never seen. Maybe something to watch with the grandkids sometime; looks like the pre-computer graphics were well done.
DeleteAs far as purgatory, no, it really isn't in the scriptures except for a vague reference in 2 Maccabees 1:46 and another in I Corinthians 3:11-15. But not really definitive, I guess it fills a gap. I don't think of it as physical torment, how could it be, and what purpose would that serve? Perhaps a spiritual cleansing, maybe it happens in an instant of viewing sins in life which were unrepented. Or a lesson that was left unlearned. But to me it makes sense that there is some provision for those who died very unprepared. Such as a family member who fought addictions most of his life, and in the end suffered a violent death. Some would say souls like that are lost, but I don't think so. It is however a stretch to think that they proceed directly to the Beatific Vision. In the end it's up to God and we don't really know.
I don't believe Purgatory is like anybody's mental image of it. But if there is no such thing, then God is unjust to the left, to the right, or to both.
DeleteTime doesn't pass at the same rate on the International Space Station or near a black hole as on earth. Why should a day in heaven or purgatory be on Eastern Standard Time?
ReplyDeleteStanley, have you been reading the Voyage of St. Brendan? :-)
DeleteOne of my favorite hagiographies. They end up in heaven where time has no meaning and it is always high noon.
Jean, haven't read it but it sounds interesting. The whole relationship between time and space has become so weird thanks to the fuzzy haired physicist. If we think about things without time, we think of it being static, frozen and dead. But maybe there are realities that are something else. And they may be all around us. I like what Tom said. We have no mental images for it.
DeleteIt's been awhile since I read it. Heaven is kind of spooky, unfathomable. There are a lot of adventures along the way that scholars have tried to match up with real places and phenomenon in the North Atlantic. Not sure that approach really makes sense. Most of the episodes seem to be a mash-up of Biblical stories and Irish myth, legend, and trying to separate the pieces is like trying to separate soup into its various components. What have you got but a bunch of soggy and unappetizing piles? The point is that Brendan had faith and he persevered in his quest to find heaven.
DeleteThe division between heaven and earth, and temporal divisions between time and space is very hazy on the sea.
There several versions of the voyage(s). In one episode, the monks meet Judas, who gets released from hell on Sundays, and St. Brendan protects him from a storm. I think that episode says some pretty radical things about mercy that we don't always associate with medieval sensibilities.
Here is a very charming 10-minute animated version of some of the Brendan stories done as a class project by school children in Ireland.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pSoW306Mlj4
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ReplyDeleteI think where we get hung up on purgatory is that we take it for granted that only completely good people can go straight to heaven. And since most people are not that and we don't want everyone to go to hell, we need a halfway house. But I don't think there's any reason to think we need to be almost perfect to be with God after death.
ReplyDeleteI am fascinated by accounts of near death experiences. Nearly all of them speak of a "life review" happening. They experience joy remembering those times when they did good things, and sorrow at opportunities for showing love and kindness which were squandered. They speak of seeing deceased loved ones. And also a point of no return, and being told it wasn't their time to cross that threshold yet. So it would seem that the hereafter is a complex place. Why would that surprise us, since the here and now also is complex?
ReplyDeleteOh, Lord, I hope there's nothing complex there! Isn't the whole point of being with God that things become simple?
DeleteI am skeptical of those near death deals. An uncle went through that. Said he saw all our dear departed, shook their hands, and then someone told him his 92 year old wife was having an affair and he had to go back Belgium ca. World War I.
I had a lovely dream/vision coming out of the dope after a procedure following a miscarriage. It was comforting. But I think of was the dope.
Still, maybe those with lots of faith who are not afraid would have happy dreams at the end.
At Mass this evening they used the OT reading from Wisdom 3:1-9, "The souls of the just are in the hand of God,
ReplyDeleteand no torment shall touch them.
They seemed, in the view of the foolish, to be dead;
and their passing away was thought an affliction
and their going forth from us, utter destruction.
But they are in peace."
I have always liked this one; we used it at my mother's funeral. Father preached on the solidarity of all believers; that we are all saints, including the ones in Purgatory. He said that we will see our guardian angels, and even if we have to experience purgation they will be there with us. Not sure where he got that, but it is a comforting thought.
I wasn't clear above, the guardian angel thought was from the homily at Mass tonight, not my mother's funeral.
DeleteThank you for that bit from Wisdom, Katherine. I like that one. I also like Revelation 21:4:
DeleteAnd God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes: and death shall be no more, nor mourning, nor crying, nor sorrow shall be any more, for the former things are passed away.
You cut Wisdom off just before my favorite part, comparing life to darting "as sparks through stubble." (verse 7). We had a funeral -- two in fact -- along with the All Souls lineup and used the Wisdom selection at the funeral I attended. Not a whole lot of difference between the mass of the day and the funeral.
DeleteI like that one from Revelation too. I want to believe there's a happy afterlife where all my dead loved ones are safe and well, but there's not a whole lot of positive stuff about that in the gospels. Jesus goes on about hell quite a bit. It's frightening.
ReplyDeleteActually, according to BibleWorks, out of a total of 1944 verses in the gospels which contain Jesus' words, 60 directly or indirectly reference hell, while 192 reference heaven. Which seems logical, since getting us to go to heaven was basically the whole reason He came here. The references to hell are like "no swimming" signs posted on a dangerous section of beach. They don't mean everybody is going to drown, they just mean stay away from there.
DeleteThat's interesting, Katherine. I always had the impression there was a lot more talk from Jesus about the do-nots. But, then, I am one of those people who swims where she isn't supposed to. :-)
DeleteEven jus the idea of hell existing is disturbing. The God who ells us to forgive doesn't forgive, and punishes forever in the outer darkness, in a lake of fire. Eeeek!
ReplyDeleteIn the end, hell may be empty. I hope that is true. I think it was the poet John Milton who spoke of the demonic as those who would rather reign in hell than serve in heaven. I think that there are people who have chosen evil and rejected God in a final way. If they were in heaven it wouldn't be heaven. However I am not convinced that someone stays in hell for all eternity by definition. That they could repent of the evil they have done but if they don't they will be without God and be in the company of those like themselves.
DeleteHell's not empty and there's no progressing from hell to heaven if you take Luke 16:19–31 seriously. It's a parable Jesus told about the rich man and the beggar, Lazarus. The rich man is sent to hell "where he is in torment" "in fire". And he is told that "nor can anyone cross over from there [hell] to us [in heaven]."
ReplyDeleteCrystal, Luke is repeating a parable. It's not a geographical map. Lazarus, in Sheol, still doesn't understand that objectifying Lazarus ("send Lazarus...") is what put him there. And the parable is heading for the point that even IF someone returned from the dead (as Someone soon would), people who objectify others are not going to understand it. Jesus' audience would "get" the netherworld concept because they already had it, as we still do. But neither they, nor we, know what we are really talking about.
ReplyDeleteHell scares the crap out of me. I think I might end up there. Does that mean I have despaired or don't have enough faith? Oh, no! More sins! That means I'm going to hell for sure!
ReplyDeleteTrying to figure out the rules for this stuff is futile. Nobody really knows, I don't care that the Church has the CCC with a handy numbering system and cross references to try to quantify what they THINK they know. Sure, there's some good advice in there. But that isn't the same as KNOWing how it all works
Do the best you can to honor God and love your neighbor, and hope it all comes out in the wash. It's not in your hands beyond that.
Jean, I think if you're worried about it you're not going to end up there. What is the quote, "By grace are ye saved, and that not of yourselves." That was one I used to hear from my mom. I was, and still am, a bit Pelagian. But I learned one thing, don't try and out Bible-quote somebody who grew up Baptist.
DeleteYeah, Baptist in-laws here. They don't think Catholics are Christians, anyway, so why bother to even talk about it.
DeleteLike I said, I don't know how it works. I think I'm doing the best that I can, but it's so easy to just do what you want and rationalize it.
I think you are right about doing your best with the Great Commandment.
DeleteTom, but there are numerous passages in the gospels that have Jesus threatening people with hell - can we dismiss them all as incorrectly interpreted? I really want to believe there is no hell at all and that the writers of the gospels put all those words in Jesus' mouth, but once we go down that road, how can we trust anything he seems to have said?
ReplyDeleteJean - me too. I'm very scared that hell might really exist and that that's my final destination.
Crystal, I am not sure how numerous those passages are. The most potent doesn't mention Hell; it's that it would have been good/better for Judas had he not been born. That is in all four Gospels. But even there, there's an ancient Christian story about Judas clawing his way through dark passages until he emerges into a room where Jesus and the Apostles are waiting at a table, and Jesus welcomes him, saying, "We could't start without you." You could spend a lot of time with the NT on Judas and conclude that even Judas made it.
DeleteThe other obvious one is Matthew's "last judgment" story about the sheep and the goats and when did they "see you, Lord." Yeah, the goats get a lot of attention from homilists, but the sheep are pretty interesting. The fed the poor, visited the imprisoned, etc., not to pile up brownie points for heaven but to respond to the needs of others. In the parable, they are as surprised by their good outcome as the goats are with theirs.
I don't think a "sinners in the hands of an angry God" preacher could, upon prayerful reflection, use either of those examples in a "scare then straight" sermon.
Yes, I took part in a retreat once and the sheep and goats was one of the things we spent time on. I thought it was scary - why doesn't Jesus forgive the goats? The priest said the bottom line was whether I trusted Jesus with my loved ones and myself. It's hard to trust someone when you aren't sure you're having personal experience with them - all you can do on is go on what they've said and done in public, and while Jesus has said a lot of good things, he's said some scary and unforgiving things too.
DeleteThe thing is, there's people like Hitler who certainly did know what they were doing, and apparently gave their soul to it. I don't see how we can say, God should just forgive them and bless them in, if there was never the slightest shred of contrition for the suffering they caused and the lives year were lost. Like Tom said previously, when we talk about the netherworld, none of us really knows what we are talking about. But one of the attributes of God is justice.
DeleteThat's a big issue ... is God all about justice or is he all about mercy?
Delete1) Jesus told people they had to forgive others over and over again. Why shouldn't that same standard apply to God?
2) People are just people. Our free will and agency is pretty compromised I'm not a determinist and I do think people should be responsible for their acts, but most of us would agree that there are factors that influence people beyond their will. God is supposed to be a loving father who raises us to be the best we can be. If we don't turn out right, some of the responsibility for fixing that should lie with God. Torturing people for all eternity in hell instead is a big fail.
I think God is both just and merciful. And since He's the only one who knows people's hearts, he knows when people did the best they could but circumstances were against them. And I absolutely believe he isn't about torturing peop!e. If they even have the slightest bit of imperfect contrition, he meets them there, like the parable of the prodigal son.
DeleteWell, Crystal and Jean, that may not be the best place to meet, but I will probably see you there too.
ReplyDeleteBut I am the most faith-less one here. I don't believe there is a hell, and I'm not convinced there is a heaven either.
I tend not to worry about it. I don't take the bible literally, believe it represents what ancient people believed about God, and not necessarily what God has "dictated". It may be God inspired, but not directly so. I agree with Marcus Borg, that the bible reflects what the ancient peoples believed about God, giving their interpretations of how God acted in their world, interpretations based on their own cultures and beliefs and superstitions, trying to draw meaning from the events of their human history. Is there truth in the bible? Yes, of course, but not necessarily literal truth.
By definition, we cannot begin to understand God. If God is not love, and if there is a hell, a lot of us may end up there, wherever or whatever it is. If God is love, infinite love, infinite mercy, then our souls, if they live on at all, may live in some kind of a state of peace
I just try to live as best I can. I try to be kind, even though often failing. I try to love, even though failing there. Same with forgiving. Etc. I do not do this because of a desire to be "rewarded" with heaven, nor out of fear of hell. It's just because it seems the right thing to do, and this way is taught by all major religions, even if not followed by many of the adherents of those religions.
I obey the village ordinances because it seems like the right thing to do. But doesn't mean I don't believe in jail. No idea what the village equivalent of heaven would be. A ban on those #$&% leaf blowers.
DeleteAnne, you don't have less faith than me - most of the time I don't know what to believe. But if there is a hellish afterlife option, it just seems that given my luck, that's where I'd end up ;). I don't trust God, if he does exist. I feel bad saying that but I think it's the truth - I'm afraid of him. I see terrible things all around us, from the current plague in Madagascar to the suffering of the Rohingya to the continuing deaths in Puerto Rico. I don't understand how a good God lets this stuff happen.
ReplyDelete