Tuesday, June 20, 2017

Otto Warmbier

UPDATE, 6/21: Still no answer on why Otto, who had been stable for over a year in a persistent vegetative state, would suddenly die (What Killed Otto Warmbier? Maybe an Infection or Blood Clot), but today I saw that his family refused to allow an autopsy, which seems a bit suspicious to me. Did they deny him medical care or food/water? That would not have been illegal but I wonder about the ethics.

In the news - Otto Warmbier dies days after release from North Korean detainment. We have all been following the story ... What Happened to Otto Warmbier? ... and it's very sad to see it end this way.

According to Wikipedia, Otto's condition was that of "a state of unresponsive wakefulness"—a condition commonly known as persistent vegetative state, like that of Terri Schiavo. Of course, I don't know the cause of Otto's death, but I recall that when Terri Schiavo died, there was a lot of Catholic press and a lot of questions were raised about end of life stuff.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. If I were in a persistent vegetative state, I'm pretty sure I would want to die, but how do you make that decision for someone else? The closest I've had to come to that was trying to decide at what point my elderly sick cats were suffering so much that they would rather be dead, and I still wonder if my choices were really made for them or for me. What does the church say about this? what do you guys think?

21 comments:

  1. I have an advanced directive and DNR. Raber, The Boy, a close friend, and my brother all have copies of it. I did not vet it with a priest first, but I did discuss it with Raber to make sure he had no objections.

    I don't know how you make the decision for others, though Raber and his brothers had to make that call for their mother. It was quite difficult because nobody, not even the doctors, could say for sure what she was aware of. They left the IVs in and administered pain meds, but discontinued the ventilator and she died a couple of days later.

    I am not in a position to judge the Schiavo situation, and I hope Otto Warmbier passed peacefully knowing his loved ones were there.

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    1. My mom died while in the hospital and they didn't try to bring her back, though it was a Catholic hospital and she had no directive. She was so sick that I think it was for the best. I guess I should at least tell my sister that I want to be croaked if I end up in this kind of state.

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    2. Most of my relatives died in Catholic hospitals. Extreme measures were not used. My grandfather had written his own wishes in a letter to my dad, and the hospital made sue they were followed, so maybe put it in writing?

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  2. I now have an advanced directive, too. Problem is, there are no provisions available such that life extending drugs be withheld if I'm unable to form new memories or know what year it is. I don't believe in suicide but think that life extending maintenance drugs are always optional.

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    1. Maybe I should get an advanced directive too. Does one need a lawyer?

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    2. No, you can download the forms online and tweak them to your wishes. Ditto a medical POA, which is important to have so that your sister would be the one consulted. Or ask your doc's office for a form. They usually have them here in Michigan.

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  3. I am haunted by the Otto Warmbier story. The poor young man. According to what I am reading, his death likely resulted from the effects of torture. All for the most minor of misdemeanor offenses (swiping a poster for a souvenir), which he was accused of but may not have even done. I couldn't imagine why anyone would go to N. Korea voluntarily, but apparently Otto was with a student group which had been to China, and the N. Korea trip was a side excursion. They probably thought, "Might as well, since we're this close." They didn't know one of their number would be entering an inner circle of hell. The N. Korean people endure this hell hole every day. This account is by a girl who managed to get out. What is the response the free world (we need to not forget that still describes us)needs to reflect to the dark places of the world which where torture is an everyday occurrence? I don't know the answer to that. I don't think "regime change" enforced by outsiders is the way to go. But for sure we should shine an intense spotlight on the abuses and excesses.

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  4. N. Korea sounds like a horrible place. It's hard to imagine that no one has tried to somehow get rid of the leadership, especially now that they're getting close to having the ability to nuke us.

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    1. Why did Otto Warmbier--or anyone else--go to North Korea. It's not as if arrests and imprisonments aren't widely known and deplored.

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    2. And why doesn't the U.S. State Department up the warnings...?

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    3. Here is another take on Otto Warmbier's death. Basically this article says that the usual pattern is for N. Korea to use prisoners such as Otto for leverage, for bargaining chips. So they wouldn't be mistreated to the point of causing their death. So it is possible he may have gotten a hold of some bad kimchi (it's bad enough, even without being spoiled) or some other illness.

      "North Korean diplomats at the United Nations had urgently requested a face-to-face meeting with U.S. officials in New York. During the June 6 meeting, Washington learned of Warmbier’s condition....Some observers believe that North Korea became worried because Warmbier’s condition suddenly worsened....“North Korea sent him back to the United States before he died because more questions would have been raised about his death and the situation would have gotten worse if it had returned his dead body,”

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  5. I don't have an advanced directive yet. My husband and I have talked to each other about what we would want, but I suppose it should be written down. I find that the older I get, the less I would consider things like organ transplant. I find I dread chemotherapy the most of any treatment. I might consider it if it gave me a pretty good chance of cure, but I have seen to many people suffer through it and end up dying anyway. I agree with Stanley about discontinuing maintenance meds if there's no point to them. I wouldn't go so far as some people and not take antibiotics for something like strep throat. It seems foolish to die of something for which there is an easy, affordable cure. Same with surgery, makes a difference if it is an appendectomy, or open heart surgery.

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  6. When I was working at the hospital surgery here as an aide, my elderly aunt came in for cataract surgery. They found out then that she had a serious heart condition that could be fixed with an operation but she wouldn't agree to it. At the time I just couldn't understand that, but now that I'm older, I do. Sometimes the cure seems worse than the problem.

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  7. It's interesting how people respond. Some folks older than me in my cancer group want every treatment they can get. Not me. I'll take the oral chemo as long as it doesn't make me sick, but when it stops working, sayonara. I don't want stem cell transplants or the hard core injections that give you psychotic episodes. I also don't want to spend my last days arguing with insurance company and spending money we don't have. I want to watch Bette David movies and listen to Jane Austen on tape.

    (LOL, while we're discussing this, Raber is in the next room playing "Brighten the Corner Where You Are" on his ukulele. Child of Light marries Child of Darkness.)

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    1. Opposites tolerate, more like. That ukulele thing ... God give me strength.

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  9. I have my friend M as my decider if I'm out of it. I joke with her that she'd pull my plug if I were sitting upright in the hospital bed, eating lasagna and solving complex differential equations.

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    1. I'm pretty sure Raber would call a priest first, which is fine as long as our priests don't change. They're cynical old geezers who know me pretty well. If we get one of those JPII priests, I'll have to rethink things.

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  10. My husband would like not to be on life support if he is in a coma with no chance of coming out of it. He says I can still keep him alive, though, in those circumstances, if I need his pension. I told my husband if it's me, he should just do whatever makes him feel better. And the decision to plug or unplug, should be what he wants, not the kids.

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  11. I have POA for my dad and he won't tell me what he wants. Whenever I bring it up, he switches the topic of conversation. He does not want to think about it.

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