Didn't we see this movie back in 1988? Then we had the sequel in 2007. They were back in, and everybody kissed and made up. Except they didn't. So now we have the remake of the original. It all seems kind of 10th century AD. Can't they be just another Protestant church? Except that's not how they or Pope Leo see it. Because they see themselves as the remnant, the real Catholics. Who don't accept Vatican II or the popes since then.
"Moments after swearing obedience to the Catholic Church, the pope and his legitimate successors, four priests were made bishops without papal approval in what Pope Leo XIV had warned would be a "schismatic act."
"...Among the four priests was Fr. Michael Goldade of St. Marys, Kansas, home to a large SSPX community. Goldade is now director of the society's seminary in Dillwyn, Virginia, where nearly 100 seminarians are in formation, according to the society. The SSPX claims to have more than 750 priests worldwide and 1,500 members — including brothers, oblates and religious sisters — active in 77 countries. "
"Breaking months of public silence on the looming rupture, Pope Leo XIV said in the days before the consecrations that the church must "move on" if the SSPX followed through on its threat. He also sent a letter to the society's superior, published by the Vatican the day before the consecrations, urging the group to turn back from committing what he called a "sin of extreme gravity."
"But Fr. Davide Pagliarani, superior general of the SSPX, said in his homily at the consecration Mass that the pope's appeal presented a "false dilemma" between the society's vision of the faith and its adherence to the church. "No one can choose between faith and the church," he said. "We want the faith of the church in order to remain in the church, and we want the church within the faith, even if those opposed to us refuse to understand this."
If you can understand that last paragraph, you're doing better than me. And sorry, not sorry, I thought this was funny:
"As the host was consecrated, a torrential downpour fell on the crowd and muddied the hillside while thunder roared and lightning flashed across the sky. The rain kept drizzling and subsided after some 20 minutes."
You can read the whole NCR article if you want to find out more.
Some people have said, leave them alone, they just want to go to church at Hogwarts. But it's never truly been about the traditional Latin Mass. They did, and still do, have limited permission for that. There is an institute, the FSSP, which is in union with Rome and whose mission it is to preserve the older Roman rite. Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter - Wikipedia
The real problem is acceptance of the changes of Vatican II. The SSPX doesn't accept several documents, such as Nostra Aetate, freedom of conscience, and relations with the Jewish religion.
The real problem for the leadership of SPSS are the documents of Vatican II. However, I suspect that the vast majority of laity and perhaps even many of the clergy only want a pre-Vatican II church that isolates itself and celebrates the Old Latin Mass. SPSS does a good job of creating isolated seminaries and congregations that keep up the pre-Vatican II culture.
ReplyDeleteWhen the Vatican excommunicated their bishops yesterday, the Dicastery reminded clergy and laity that they too incurred automatic excommunication if they adhered to the schism. However, the reminder also said that this should not be automatically imputed just because of participation in their rites.
If SPSS clergy and laity are saying that they no longer believe the Catholic Church is the true church and therefore no longer participate in its parishes, then they should be treated as Protestants and have to go through something like RCIA/OCIA to be received back into the Church.
But if they are only seeking their spiritual benefit by going to SPSS churches without denying the Church reforms then they should be treated as Catholics in my opinion.
"...if they are only seeking their spiritual benefit by going to SPSS churches without denying the Church reforms then they should be treated as Catholics in my opinion"
ReplyDeleteI agree. But to me, they would be a lot better off just finding a conservative, high churchy parish that isn't schismatic, than getting their spiritual nourishment from a group which has gone off on their own tangent.
Vatican II decided that Catholics in spiritual need may approach the Orthodox for the sacraments, and that Orthodox in spiritual need may approach us for the sacraments, even though a schism exists between us.
ReplyDeleteThe Orthodox decided not to reciprocate. At least one reason might be that many Orthodox in the US would find many Roman Rite parishes far closer than their own.
However, our rule still stands. Out of respect for Orthodox authorities, we do not encourage Orthodox to approach us for the sacraments, but if one does, we do not deny them the sacraments, e.g. an Orthodox spouse can receive the Eucharist at a Catholic wedding or funeral, or even regularly if their spouse or children are Catholic.
When the local orthodox priest invited me for coffee to discuss my attendance at Orthodox vespers, I cited Vatican II. We agree that his parish was the only parish in our county that regularly celebrated the Hours. I also have attended Divine Liturgy on some feasts (Annunciation, Saint Peter and Paul, Transfiguration, Assumption, Holy Cross, etc.) which they celebrate more solemnly than we do. He regarded me as an associate member of his parish and was always pleased with my attendance since there was a smaller group of people (about thirty) that regularly did Vespers and Feasts in contrast to about a hundred and twenty that came to Sunday Divine Liturgy. It was like a became a member of the inner core of his parish without coming to Sunday Divine Liturgy!
My attendance at his parish had everything to do with who I am as someone who daily celebrates the Hours with solemnity, and little to do with the schismatic nature of his parish.
I regard the failure of Roman Rite parishes to have any regular celebration of the Hours and to promote the Hours in our daily lives as a grave spiritual flaw of the clergy probably more important than depriving laity of the Chalice before Vatican II.
I regard my own celebration of the Hours as a prophetic foreshadowing of what Catholicism will become. I am at least fifty years ahead of the rest of the Church. I regard the Hours as a charism, certainly the greatest one of my life.
Jack —“ I regard my own celebration of the Hours as a prophetic foreshadowing of what Catholicism will become.”
DeleteFrom another thread —Jack - “ My life-long experience of praying the Hours, especially by augmenting it with recordings, leads me to believe that the Hours in their virtual form will become a strong part of prayer life of lay people.”.
You also mentioned leaving your school at lunch to say the Hours in church before going to your grandmother’s for lunch.
I’m curious about why you think that Catholic laity will adopt the Hours as a regular form of prayer. To me it seems highly unlikely . I would guess that the majority of Catholics don’t even know what they are, or have only a vague idea at best. Your own personal efforts to promote the Hours in your parish didn’t achieve the goal in spite of your efforts and willingness to lead. . Reciting the Hours is extremely time consuming, and time is one thing most Americans say they don’t have enough time. Many would trade income for time if they could - less income for more time. Most self- identified Catholics don’t even go to mass very often as you know. I am amazed that your high school lunch break was long enough to go to church to recite the Hours AND go to your grandmothers for lunch. Most high schools that I know of have only 30-45 minutes for lunch. Was your school part of the parish? Did your grandmother live on the same block? Many high schools don’t allow students to leave the campus at lunch.
Our two oldest sons went to a Catholic diocesan high school. They were never taught anything about the Hours. Our youngest went to an Episcopal high school and it was a good source of information about Episcopal worship opportunities in the area. . The Washington National Cathedral has Evensong every day. It has Compline on special occasions only. A local Episcopal church has daily Evening Prayer and two mornings/week of Morning Prayer in person. There are a couple of Catholic Churches in the DC metro area that have virtual compline. I’ve never heard of a Catholic parish anywhere near our home that offers any of the Hours ever.
I think the pre-Vatican II breviary was in Latin. I don't know if the SSPX bunch use a Latin-only breviary. That would require actual fluency, not like me with a few memories of the old Mass responses and a year of high school Latin.
ReplyDeleteOne of my classmates was planning to enter seminary after HS graduation. Since our school only offered the one year of Latin, the teacher worked with him privately to try and get him up to speed. But by the time he entered seminary, Latin was no longer a requirement.
This classmate is a retired priest now. But he served for years in parishes with a lot of Spanish speaking people. Some knowledge of Latin would have helped in learning Spanish.
DeleteTechnically the Pre-Vatican II Breviary was in Latin, but beginning in 1950 there was a four-volume edition in English. Officially it was meant for women religious and laity. I used it to pray the Office when I was in High School. It was not used for liturgical services in church, although nuns often prayed it in English in the chapel of their residence. I had my own private chapel in an alcove of my bedroom where I prayed the Hours except for noontime prayer. There was also a small paperback translation of the Psalter that fit easily into your pocket. At lunch time I left the school and walked down to the local parish where I said the psalms from Terce and Sext before going to my grandmother's apartment for lunch.
DeleteHowever, I suspect many priests had a set of the Four Volumens in English and used them as a "pony" for the difficult parts such as the scripture readings at Matins which occur once a year. Lot of obscure vocabulary there.
The Latin of the psalms becomes very natural especially since the priests recited the whole psalter once a week! When I pray the Latin Office psalms for Lauds and Vespers which I have used frequently, it seems like it is my native language. I don't think of the English translation. In fact, for a while I was doing my own translations (paraphrases) of some of them by simply reciting the Latin slowly while my mind began forming a translation that eliminated the archaic elements, e.g. Lord, King, and cosmology. Of course, many poets and hymn writers have done a similar thing setting the psalms to rhyme and rhythm. I have a book that has all 150 psalms done that way. I have all sorts of translations of the psalms.
I am sure that SPXX does its breviary in Latin. It is all part of their ethos of creating a separate culture in their seminaries and parishes. They probably do a lot of the office in their seminaries. That is what the Orthodox do. Their seminaries sing the Office, at least the major hours which teaches future priests how to sing the Office in their parishes.
I think the Mundelein Psalter was created to do that for Chicago's seminary. Barron, who was their rector, has always thought the Hours were important. When he was in seminary, his spiritual director challenged him to make the Office his way of getting a personal relationship with God.
I'm told that many Latin mass adherents live in a sort of "gray zone" in which they want to remain attached to the church but also want to be in their little enclave, apart from the rest of the church. Some of those adherents live on this side of the line that separates the in-communions from the out-of-communions; some live on the other side of that line. But the gray zone covers both sides of the line; and there are relationships, and perhaps comings and goings, within the zone, on both sides of the line.
ReplyDeleteFor most Catholics - those of us who don't live in the gray zone - that SSPX adherents have incurred excommunication has no practical effect on our lives; we'll continue on as we have. But it's in the gray zone where this schism really hits home in a practical way. The legal and spiritual line is a bit brighter now than it was before; there is separation now where, before, the spiritual relationships were a little more ambiguous.
The pastoral risk for Leo is that, in widening the rift in the gray zone, Latin-adherent Catholics who were on this side of the rift will jump across to the other side to stay connected with their families and friends on the other side. That's grievous; sometimes, grievous things are necessary.
Anne may bear me out on this: a number of politically conservative Catholics, especially converts to Catholicism, are attacted to the Latin Mass. (Is JD Vance among them?) Among those who experience the practical implications of this action are some people in that rather tight-knit, well-to-do and powerful group.
The people in the gray zone who are in it for the pre VII Latin Mass might want to check out some of the actual positions of the leadership of the SSPX. Such as whether they hold Jews responsible for killing Jesus. And rejecting the VII documents on freedom of conscience, and the status of non-Catholic Christians and the rights of non Christians, and whether governments should favor Catholicism as a religion (basically confessional states). And then there's the non-official stuff such as not really believing that the so called Novus Ordo rite actually does a valid Eucharist. And forget about any girl altar servers, women lectors or EMHCs. And reception of Communion in the hand is liturgical abuse.
DeleteIt goes way deeper than the Latin Mass. Seems like Pope Benedict should have gotten the other stuff sorted out with them before he lifted the excommunication of 1988.
Though JD Vance may be attracted to the Latin Mass, and has had his issues with Pope Leo, I don't think he's likely to go full-on sedevacantist. He has further political ambitions. The SSPX is noisy, but non-schismatic Catholics way outnumber them.
DeleteIt would be hard to be a normie Catholic in a place like St. Mary's, Kansas, where the SSPX basically took over. Their church is called Immaculata, and the Catholic parish which is associated with the archdiocese of Kansas City is called The Immaculate Heart of Mary. It was established in 1848. The name similarity seems deliberately confusing on the part of the SSPX group.
Katherine, I haven’t paid much attention to that group after reading about them years ago when it came out that Mel Gibson is a fan. But way back then when I researched them I remember reading something from one of its leaders - bishop? I don’t t know - who said married women shouldn’t work outside the home and no woman should wear pants - skirts and dresses only. He said a bunch of other nonsense, but those comments stuck with me. I was still an active Catholic then, but after that brief research endeavor I didn’t bother paying attention to them or their battles with popes. I figured that they are a bunch of nutcakes that the church doesn’t need. The popes have agonized over them for way too long. Leo took action. Good for him. They can be happy as their own protest-ant church - one more among thousands. They are a few thousand people among a billion ( nominal) Catholics.
DeleteJD might be more attracted to the rich and powerful Opus Dei club unless he is mesmerized by the Latin and the costumes and sets. Opus Dei has a strong presence in DC.
I think Mel Gibson has since gone off on an even wackier tangent than the SSPX.
DeleteI have seen a lot of video footage of SSPX priests processing in very fancy vestments, with maximum pageantry in elaborate churches. It doesn't square with my own memories of the pre-Vatican II church. Our church was old and patched together (they built a new one in 1960). The priest had some shabby vestments. I remember my grandma and some other church ladies mending altar cloths and surplices so they wouldn't fall apart. Of course a small town parish in the middle of nowhere was different than a big cathedral parish.
I thought I mentioned this somewhere but I may have edited it out: to my way of thinking, accepting Vatican II means accepting the liturgical reforms. If it's okay to reject those, then it's kind of hard to explain why it's not okay to reject the reforms on relationships with Judaism and other non-Christian religions.
ReplyDeleteI agree, the liturgical reforms weren't something to be cherry picked in isolation from the other reforms.
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