New York Times Concluding Paragraph
This is a moment to turn down the volume and reflect on our political culture. It is a moment for restraint, rather than cycles of vengeance or the suspension of civil liberties, as some urged on Wednesday. It is also a moment to engage with people who have different views from our own. When societies lose the ability to argue peacefully and resort to violence to resolve their political debates, it usually ends very badly.
Washington Post Concluding Paragraph
The Utah event was supposed to be the first in a series of university visits this fall as part of Kirk’s American Comeback Tour. His voice might be gone, but his millions of fans will make sure his message is never silenced.
To the Times I'd answer that everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts. Trump and his MAGA followers insist on their own facts (for example, Trump was the real winner of the 2020 election), There are some matters on which you can't say, "Well, let's just agree to disagree."
ReplyDeleteTo the Washington Post I'd say, "I'm thinking of cancelling my subscription." I wholeheartedly condemn the murder of Charlie Kirk but (especially after reading his Wikipedia entry) I am not at all comforted by the idea that "his millions of fans will make sure his message is never silenced."
I already cancelled my subscription to WaPo several months back after Bezos bent the knee to Trump. About "...his millions of fans will make sure his message is never silenced", we can't normalize that.
DeleteI honestly didn't know much about Charlie Kirk before this, other than that he was just another right wing loudmouth. I still think that's what he was. Unfortunately his media platform was a force multiplier. But others have media platforms and they should use them to counter the message he was apparently putting out.
About that message, apparently part of it was this thing about "toxic empathy". Do people who say that even understand what empathy is? I don't think so. The Golden Rule is part of it. It is something shared by all major religions and ethical philosophies. Without it, conscience formation is difficult if not impossible.
Charlie Kirk was apparently part of the " bro culture" of young men with an attitude. God rest his soul, but we don't need more of that.
About empathy, it isn't just the Golden Rule shared by major religions and philosophies. It's built into the psyche of all human beings who aren't sociopaths.
DeleteThe far right is calling for civil war. For going after every liberal and Democratic Party organization and shutting them down. Arresting “ libs”. A lot of the comments are apparently by rightwing “ influencers” with millions of followers, all calling for violence against Democrats. I don’t recognize all the names but some - yes.
DeleteThe WaPo has gone far right ever since Bezos bought it.Its my home paper but I will not renew.
My son posted a page of comments from a far right website to our family WhatsApp chat. . It’s frightening because it includes recognizable names like Musk and Loomer. I don’t think I can post the screenshot though. It’s stomach turning.
The far right was already doing that stuff, starting a slow motion civil war. I don't pay too much attention to comment sections of right wing websites. Because they aren't good for one's mental health; besides, there are a lot of "sh*t posters out there who get their kicks out of being outrageous online. Not to mention "bot farms" by foreign and domestic actors who are invested in keeping things stirred up. I am more worried about things like Christian Integralism, which is a serious philosophy and has followers who are professors, judges, and church leaders.
Deletehttps://theconversation.com/what-is-catholic-integralism-234894
DeleteHad to look up integralism and found this short article. It's an idea that's been around since the Middle Ages in the West--norms, as handed down by the Church and codified by the king, trump individual freedoms for the collective good.
The question is whether integralism actually *does* contribute to the collective good. Or whether, in a diverse population, it results in religious tyranny and persecution.
Thomas More's "Utopia" is the bright side of integralism. The reality of Tudor England during the Reformation was the dystopian side of integralism--two sides claiming spiritual supremacy and slaughtering each other.
Some have called this a professional hit. Kirk was perfectly murdered. A shot to the throat is much more sure than to the chest or even head. Surgeons know that surgery to the neck is very perilous. And the assassin seems to have absconded without a trail. A few things about Kirk. He was reported to be openly skeptical of Trump’s coterie’s dismissal of the Epstein files. Also, he was becoming critical of that most sacred of all cows, Israel. One thing we know about Mossad. They are very good at these things and the turning of global opinion against Israel is making them more desperate and violent. Also, I’m sure they are very good at nearly but not killing someone when required, as was probably the case with the Trump “assassination attempt”. I don’t think this is a case of political language having harmful effect on an individual. I think there are specific state actors involved, probably Israeli. Does this make me antisemitic? I think of Tolkien’s ring trilogy. The evil orcs, the most violent and despicable, were elves that had been corrupted. Elves were the most noble beings.
ReplyDeleteRussia under Putin have shown themselves to be pretty effective assassins also.
DeleteWithout reading the entire WaPo editorial, I can't tell if the last line is supposed to be a tribute to Kirk's commitment to his cause, or an observation that MAGA influencers are part of our political landscape now.
ReplyDeleteThe last line of the NYT editorial, summed up, is just inane: "Resorting to violence is usually bad." Boy, there's a penetrating analysis worth cash money.
The shot that killed Charlie Kirk may not be tantamount to the firing on Fort Sumter, but our cold civil war is heating up. As Congress allows Trump more and more latitude that SCOTUS seems disinclined to curb, as cabinet secretaries dismantle basic government functions and services, as operatives get on TV and lie through their lying teeth, and as inflation rises, expect more of these killings.
We can deplore assassinations all we want, but MAGA is sending troops to quell peaceful demonstrations, conducting black ops ICE raids, and villainizing everybody they disagree with. Guns are readily available. Expect a lot more people to snap.
I don’t think this was a snap. Snappers are amateurs and only good for close range or mass shootings. I think it’s all fascist textbook. If we keep lamenting mass social psychology instead of state actors, we’re being led down the yellow brick road which is ok as long as you recognize the witches and throw water on them when required.
DeleteJean is right, as usual. This will probably be an excuse to send military into the blue cities everywhere. To declare a national “ emergency “.
DeleteInflation is getting worse - and will get even “ worser” as tariffs really begin to kick in. Puts the Fed in another tight spot on interest rates. Unemployment is going up. Job creation fell again dramatically. Is trump going to fire the guy he just appointed at BLS for bad numbers as he fired the one before for reporting numbers he didn’t like? Somehow the MAGAts will find a way to blame the Democrats for the looming economic crisis and the situation will become even more dangerous. Too many of them are “ carrying”. In the meantime, Russia “ accidentally “ sent drones into Polands airspace, triggering a NATO response.
However, meaningful, coordinated, nonviolent resistance sometimes has an effect. I see that Trump has backed off, at least for now, on his planned "Chipocalypse" invasion of Chicago. Because according to him the ungrateful wretches won't welcome it. More likely the coordinated efforts and planning of the governor and mayor, and community agencies didn't leave ICE any easy pickings targets.
DeleteMAGA is noisy and willing to break things. But they aren't the majority. Somehow the resistance has to find its backbone.
Katherine, the “ resistance “ among the citizenry is widespread but not organized. The Dem party continues to flail. Not sure what can be done.
DeleteI don’t read right - wing sites as a rule, but my eldest son does. The comments by rightwing Catholics at the America site are bad enough. But at least the language isn’t vulgar. I don’t need the trash talk of the internet. In order to distract this morning I have been reading foreign news like BBC, and Le Monde to get some perspective., I do that whenever the NYT and WaPo go overboard. Half the stories on the NYT homepage today are Kirk. The shooting is top of the international news too, but it’s only one story, not the entire feed. The French government collapsed ( again) and a new PM appointed ( again) and there are protests all over France, but protests are a way of life there anyway. The Atlantic has a couple of articles and I will check The Economist later for some level headed reporting. Epstein in the British news because they’ve recalled their Ambassador to the US as he is apparently in the Epstein files too. And Prince Harry had tea with his father. Moving on.
Oh, yah, sure, I'm willing to condemn violence and write my congresspeople through November 2026 in hopes that Trump is pressured to get rid of RFK and Hegseth, and loses his majority or at least loses some GOP rubber-stampers in House or Senate.
DeleteBeyond that, MAGA may find that all their bullsh*t about Antifa starts coming true, and I am not going to feel real bad about it. You reap what you sow.
A Mossad hit? Those guys are capable of anything, but for now I'll go with the simpler explanation: A lot of regular people hate Trump with a passion, and the more unstable among them will lash out.
Plus there are lots of people who just want to slaughter a famous person or half a dozen school kids. Could be one of them.
Unfortunately the violence fomenting talk on the right is causing my two Europe bound sons to consider moving sooner than planned. The youngest probably can, as he will officially be a French citizen in January, barring a last minute glitch. He had his final interview a couple of weeks ago at the Consulate in LA. The wanna go to Spain family faces a tougher road to emigrating but they are doubling down on their efforts now. Still not sure how to support themselves there. Details.
DeleteThey will have to sit tight and wait to see what Trumps crew does. Further suppression of free speech? Ban protests? How far is he willing to go. A lot of people doubted that he would foment violence to overthrow the 2020 election. I expected that he wouldn’t accept the results but even I didn’t expect the storming of the Capitol. He may have pulled back on sending military to Chicago, but at this point I wouldn’t put anything past him.
I don’t see this as an attack by a foreign government, but who knows. At this point, anything is possible.
.
Kirk said a lot of nasty stuff, especially about famous black women in politics. Of course he was a gun rights fanatic. Shortly after the school shooting in Nashville ( at the Presbyterian school) he said this
DeleteIn a resurfaced video from a Turning Point USA event, Kirk says, “We must also be real. We must be honest with the population. Having an armed citizenry comes with a price, and that is part of liberty.”….
“We need to be very clear that you’re not going to get gun deaths to zero. It will not happen,” he continues. “But I think it’s worth it. I think it’s worth to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year, so that we can have the Second Amendment.”
He ( and I’ve noticed this in online comments at America) compared gun deaths with driving deaths, noting that we don’t ban cars. There are multiple problems with this argument, but it’s been picked up by the right wing as though it actually makes sense.
Apparently he considered the deaths of school children and others to be acceptable collateral damage. This event is almost a pure example of tragic irony.
WSJ is reporting that the bullets in the rifle are engraved with transgender anti- fascist ideology.
DeleteThe difference between guns and cars (of course this is not original and has been pointed out before) The purpose of cars is transportation. The purpose of guns is to kill people or animals. To drive a car people have to pass a test and be licensed. They have to buy insurance and get valid plates, for which they have to pay a tax every year. In some states the car has to pass a safety inspection and/or an air pollutants test. People can lose their right to legally drive. Be nice if some of that applied to guns.
DeleteThose are unverified reports about the bullets. My guess is that the shooter, if/when he is found, will be shot dead, and then Trump can circulate any story/stories involving his villain-of-the-moment. Like how those people in the open boat in that drone footage got blasted to smithereens were dope smugglers.
DeleteYes - it seems the WSJ is reporting rumors. It used to be a reliable source. Trump does whatever he wants
DeleteNon-citizens are being warned by the State Dept that they will take action if they comment in a way that might seem to support the shooting. Citizens are encouraged to narc on foreigners who do so. Trump and thugs are going to wave that kid's bloody shirt until the MAGAs can't see anything but red.
DeleteOne thing to consider, one perfect shot and the shooter was out of there. Nut jobs seem to like to keep shooting and taking out multiple victims until they’re killed or suicide. Of course, there could still be a patsy waiting to be suicided with a long note saying s(he) was a transgender Democrat. Case closed. Start the civil war.
ReplyDeleteWhile on the road this morning in the Stroudsburg area, I saw a middle aged couple walking along the road waving a big American flag. I couldn’t read the print on their t-shirts but I thought “well, this can’t be good”.
DeleteI think you’re right about the nut jobs who want to kill as many as possible. This was a planned assassination. Will he be caught? My guess is that he may have been military at some time - a trained sniper. Motive? Who knows. Sad that flag wavers are suspicious these days, but I sure don’t trust them any more.
DeleteMAGA world has very big feelings about this. The president wants the flag flown at half mast. He did not want that for President Carter's funeral. I was reading a statistic that there are an average of 121 gun deaths per day in the US. But that's just collateral damage. Except when it's not. The leopards can eat your face too.
ReplyDeleteWash Post has a roundup of Trump admin/GOP comments about how they plan to crack down on left wingers and their "hate speech" about Kirk. Sharing as a gift link for those of you who don't have or who dropped Washington Post subscriptions: https://wapo.st/4n0sDeV
ReplyDeleteA lot of the rhetoric seems to be aimed at foreigners, social media commentators, and unnamed educators supposedly celebrating or justifying Kirk's death and using "hate speech."
Susie Wiles assures us that Trump policies to crack down on purveyors of hate speech will of course respect First Amendment rights. Yah right, cuz Trump has always been so respectful of the Bill of Rights.
Makes my blood run cold.
MAGA go-to is always the accusation that is a confession. They would know about "hate speech".
DeleteThey have turned Kirk into a saint - a martyr. He was a man who frequently used hate speech - promoting bigotry. Unfortunately his death may trigger even more suppression of our freedoms than has been happening already - slowly. The rush to destroying our freedoms may be accelerated because of this. I have prayed for his family but I fear that the violence he promoted will now accelerate because he too became collateral damage from gun violence that is “worth it”, according to his own words.
DeleteI hope our two sons who have been planning to move to Europe are able to do so fairly soon because of the future for their young children. They will be better off in the long run if they can do it. The soon to be a French citizen son will have no problems. The would be Spanish residents face more obstacles. My husband doesn't want to move - it will be a hard decision for us as whether or not to join them. I would go in a heartbeat. But if my husband just wants to take the easy route and stay here I will have to also. He will be 85 in a couple of months. He’s old and has a lot of medical issues. His main objection to moving isn’t quality of care because he+knows from personal experiences that the care there is usually superior to here. It’s the language barrier that concerns him. I know that many medical practitioners in both Spain and France are fluent in English because of the large expat communities. It’s not just to cater to people from the UK ( a whole lot of Brits move there) but Northern Europeans, most of whom speak English fluently. English is the lingua franca these days all over the world.
A friend is seriously considering Canada in her old age. She’s not alone, based on what I read.
We're not in any kind of position, financial or otherwise, to move anywhere, and I really don't want to. I feel bad that I don't see family members as often as I want to, but none of them are an ocean away. We simply don't have the energy to pick up stakes and move again. Have done it five times as an adult, and only one of those times was because I wanted to. Our country has been in a bad patch before and I don't think this is forever.
DeleteMoving is not easy to contemplate simply because of the practical challenges of being an immigrant. However, I lived in France for almost a year when young, and during the last 50 years we spent a whole lot of time in Europe. We feel pretty at home there. During our many, many trips there during the last ten years I always felt relief at being an ocean away from the constantly increasing toxicity enveloping our country. As long as I didn’t look at American news sites, I was spared seeing trumps face constantly, spared the news saturation of whatever horrible thing he had just said or done. That’s why I turned to BBC, Le Monde, The Times of London and Frankfurter Allgemaine .yesterday . I needed a break from the efforts to canonize Charlie Kirk. No flags at half mast for Carter who worked tirelessly after his presidency to help others. This is just one example of how far we have fallen in this country. I am more than ready to be done with it.
DeleteI see that they have supposedly caught the suspect, but don't know if it will turn out to be real.
ReplyDeleteBtw, Charlie Kirk is from around here. He was born in the town where I live and grew up in a suburb next door. The high school he attended is in the same school district as the one my kids attended. He was the same age as one of my kids, but seems she didn't know him. I am sure there are at least a few parishioners at our parish who knew him or his family, but I've been away on vacation all week so haven't been able to talk with anyone locally.
ReplyDeleteHe was pretty famous in right-wing circles, and I had heard his name (without being aware of the local connection), but had never heard or read anything he said or wrote, prior to his assassination. The media bubble he lived in doesn't intersect with mine.
When someone dies, it is considered good manners to publicly remember the good things about him. I think it is in that spirit that the NY Times, the WaPo and other media outlets chose to focus on the admirable things about Kirk: his entrepreneurial political achievements; his identity as young husband and father; and most of all, his reported willingness to engage with anyone, whether they agree or disagree with his political views. All of these things are praisworthy.
Now, I am starting to see stories that are providing details of his beliefs. Most likely, I would not have agreed with him on many things. He publicly supported Trump's claim that the 2020 presidential election was rigged. He blamed flooding in Texas on DEI policies. He characterized gay identity as a "lifestyle". Apparently he had little or no empathy for trans people. Overall, as a close ally of the Trump administration, he often parroted that administration's talking points.
So we might say that he had a good process (openness to civil discussion and debate), even if we don't care for his content. The process is worth thinking about. Apparently his rise to prominence was via going to college campuses to speak out against people and institutions that did not have a good process - shouting down and shutting down ideas that people found objectionable.
I had heard his name but really knew nothing about him or what he espoused. Now that I have, I find little to admire and a lot to despise about his beliefs, spread to millions apparently due to his trump like “charisma”. Among these - He supported a fundraising effort for the man who almost killed Nancy Pelosi's husband. He expressed racist ideas, insulting notable African American women, including Michelle Obama. He called for “stoning” members of the LGBTQ community. And a whole lot more. He believed that women must always-be subjugated to male authority, everywhere. ( I wonder how his wife really thought about that misogynistic belief). He believed that innocent people, including children, killed by guns were the price of “ freedom”. He made that comment shortly after children and teachers were killed at the Presbyterian school in Nashville. Would he have considered the murder of his kids to be “worth it”? His kids were spared - he was the gun victim. He promoted violence. Did he reap what he had sown? As the event of his murder was still unfolding, three teenagers were shot, including the suicidal 16 year old shooter, at a high school in Evergreen Colorado. One of his victims is still in critical condition. This story has been barely mentioned.
ReplyDeleteNow his hero, trump is threatening to go after and shut down all Democratic linked organizations and leaders. Is this a good process?
I never advocate violence even against those who threaten our country. via their freedom of speech. But MAGA and its leadership have and do. Jan 6 is a prime example of MAGA violence, incited by their idol. Kirk supported the MAGA movement so his “ openness” was a deception to get invitations to speak. He promoted the idea that professors who are “ left” be reported by students and fired. And that happened at a Texas college just a week or so ago. He would have been pleased.
I shed more tears for the innocents who are victims of what he preached than I do for him. I force myself to pray for his soul, and that if there is a purgatory, he will have to face his very serious sins.