The religious professionals (and, maybe the Church Ladies) continue to wring their hands about the defections from Catholicism. Pope Benedict’s “smaller, purer” church does seem to be becoming the reality. The RCC in the US now seems to mostly hang on to old Catholics, unwilling to give up, and young "trads" who long for an era they never knew.
Paul Baumann in Commonweal discusses an article about the increasing rate at which the RCC in America is losing active Catholics. The article he references apparently advocates something along the lines of Dreher’s Benedict Option - creating enclaves of co-religionists that keep their distance from general society.
“They note that ….even those who still identify as Catholic show up at weekly Mass only 11 percent of the time, which makes handing on the faith to the next generation almost impossible. “We are losing nine out of ten cradle Catholics,” they write, a rate of defection even higher than that of other troubled religious groups. Most of those leaving the Church end up identifying with the ever-growing number of religious “Nones.” Why this steady dwindling of the faithful? “Catholic parents are, for the most part, failing—failing to effectively hand on a life of faith to their children,” they argue…..”
But is it really a failure of the parents? Or is it more related to the changes in western society since WWII - changes that expose people to far more knowledge of everything from biblical history, to the many horrific acts of Catholic Church during its history, to different cultures and religions. The information revolution gave access to knowledge of religious beliefs of all sorts, and also to real time news about ongoing scandals of church leadership (Catholic and other). In addition there was a dramatic increase of access to higher education among those born after WWII. It is pretty well established that more education often leads to more defection from organized religion. A return to life before the 1960s in Catholic ghettos seems unlikely.
Baumann asks -
“Outside of the sort of intentional communities one sometimes finds around conservative Catholic colleges, is it [creating immersive Catholic communities] a realistic agenda for most Catholics in twenty-first-century America? “
The latest Pew Study documents the continuing growth in numbers of those who self-identify as “Nones”. Professional religionists have long denigrated those who ”find” God in nature, in a sunset, in the forest. They are mocked, described as shallow, and told that without being in a formal religious community, they will be forever spiritually immature. As one who has long experienced the presence of God in nature far more frequently than within the walls of a church (almost never), I look at the judgment of these religious professionals as not only insulting, but shallow, with no real understanding of the phenomenon they so self- righteously condemn.
"…large shares of nones in several countries said "there is something spiritual beyond the natural world, even if we cannot see it." The report states that 61% of nones in Mexico and 65% in Brazil expressed this belief. In the United States, 54% of the unaffiliated population said that nature can have spiritual energies.”
https://www.ncronline.org/news/they-dont-identify-religion-they-often-believe-god-afterlife
The Pew Study highlights that Nones often believe in God, and in an afterlife. From reading this summary of the most recent report, it seems that many now are going beyond finding God in nature towards a form of panentheism. But even without a belief in panentheism, the experience of finding God in nature of so many “spiritual but not religious” is powerful. Perhaps clergy and religious educators, and worried parents and grandparents, should open their minds a bit to try to understand why so many find God in nature, and beyond nature, but not in church. The belief in something spiritual beyond the natural world does seem to open the door to more conventional Christian belief. but they don’t just see it “out there” but as an inherent aspect of nature itself.
Thoughts?
Idle point of interest: At what rates are cradle Catholics leaving compared to rates at which evangelicals and others are coming into the Church? Tracking that entrance/exit rate might provide some insights about the flavor of American Catholicism now and for the foreseeable.
ReplyDeleteAlso: Thanks for prayers anyone may have been sending Raber's way in his quandaries with the local priest. Raber had quite a helpful talk with the local deacon. Offering thanks to Deacon M and all deacons who give good counsel.
I’m glad Raber had a good conversation with the deacon. Maybe there is hope for your parish.
DeleteI have read that for every convert ( not just evangelicals) that joins the RCC, five cradle Catholics leave. I have also read that most converts are spouses who probably wouldn’t have joined had they not been pressured a bit. If most converts are evangelicals, the future of the RCC in America may be even darker as far as parish culture goes. The few progressives hanging on will leave even faster.
Thanks for the kind words about deacons. I'm glad Raber had a good conversation with the one there. It helps when people know they're not alone.
DeleteJean - update. Today I read that now 8 Catholics leave the church for every convert who comes in. A lot worse than just a few years ago when it was 5 leavers for every joiner.
DeleteI read the NCR article, haven't gotten to the Commonweal one yet.
ReplyDeleteI thought it was interesting that a lot of the Nones do believe in God and life after death. Many of them also believe that the spirits of their ancestors continue to influence them, and that animals have spirits (which I also believe).
I confess that I get a little irritated by some of the hand wringing and crepe hanging. According to some articles, involvement with a formal practice of religion is pretty much limited to uber trads and evangelicals living in their little enclaves. I personally have no interest in practicing faith in a silo. I think it must vary by location, our parish is neither trad nor progressive, more "middle of 'the road".. We seem to maintain. It took awhile, but most of the people who were here before Covid are back.
About evangelicals getting dragged into the church by their spouses, some of them came in because they found something that was lacking in their evangelical tradition.
I haven’t read Patheos for years . The Catholic part had been increasingly made up of blogs by very conservative converts, most previously evangelicals. My impression was that many of them were attracted by liturgy - the smells and bells, the ritual, and a less plain interior - buildings that looked like churches, the stained glass, even the statues. There is a richness in liturgical churches that is usually absent in evangelical churches, at least those I have visited briefly. Or online. They seem to range from starkness to rock shows, with stages, multi- colored lights, “ fog” enveloping the musicians etc. Apparently this doesn’t appeal to all evangelicals. But they bring their somewhat narrow vision of Christianity with them to Catholicism- very often they hold onto a literal approach to scripture, and their often narrow minded approach to hot button issues. They didn’t join the RCC because of sharing Pope Francis’s more expansive views. They seldom join the EC I suspect because it is far more open to the LGBTQ community and to women in leadership, and they are especially bothered by women priests and openly gay priests. So the RCC it is.
DeleteAs far as the Nones go - why don’t the clerics and other handwringers ever do anything but condemn? Why don’t they ask questions? Try to understand? After all, most Nones believe in God, a soul, an afterlife, and pray. Perhaps the clerics and handwringers would learn something that might help them stem the non- stop hemorrhaging of cradle Catholics?
I don't read Patheos. It seems like Substack has some better authors.
DeleteOf course I don't know why all evangelical converts came over to the RC. But I knew two of them pretty well, my husband and my mother. It was sacramental theology that drew them in. Neither of them cared particularly about smells and bells, though Mom said she preferred a more liturgical service than the more freeform Baptist one. She converted after being married to Dad 7 years, and K and I had been married 10 years before he converted. So we definitely didn't drag them in.
Yes, they should talk to the Nones and find out why they left. I think it's going to vary a lot with the individual. But also talk to the younger people who stayed, and find out why. They're not all trads, in fact maybe less so than the converts.
You’re not missing anything by not reading Patheos. I think it was around before Substack. I checked - it’s still around but I haven’t read it for years.
DeleteOf course there are many reasons people jump one ship and on to a different one. I don’t know any converts really. I know a lot of former Catholics though. The two I did know became Catholic because of marriage. They weren’t drawn to Catholicism particularly, and didn’t buy into all the teachings . But their spouses were committed to the RCC more than they were to their family denomination and they were uncomfortable not going to communion, especially once their kids were. Felt like outsiders when at mass with their own nuclear family, but staying in the pew because they weren’t members of the club. So they joined the club.
We're also middle-of-the-road. Or at least it feels that way to me. There are definitely a couple of parishes nearby that intentionally try to be more "conservative Catholic". We don't really do that - but neither do we try to signal to conservative Catholics that they're not welcome.
ReplyDeleteThere are other parishes that have other sorts of focuses, such as catering to Poles or Spanish speakers - not only their language, but the culture and spirituality of those homelands.
It's possible that conservative Catholics perceive our parish as being liberal. I've definitely received comments from people who object to something I said in a homily (such as concern about climate change) or a Prayer of the Faithful (which I don't author, but do dutifully read from the script, occasionally against my better judgment.) But having seen parishes that intentionally try to be more Catholic-progressive, I can assure folks here that we're not really very progressive at all.
Cardinal Dulles was from a (quite prominent) conventionally mainline Protestant family. As a young man, was a skeptic of religion. While an undergraduate at college at Harvard one spring day, he saw a single bud on a single tree along the Charles River, and realized that God - or some spiritual potency - was the source of that very simple sign of new life. That tiny but illuminating encounter with God in nature was his spiritual turning point. It started him down a path to religious engagement, conversion to Catholicism, the Society of Jesus, a career as a professional theologian, and eventually the College of Cardinals.
ReplyDeleteClearly, nature is a source of God's Revelation. We can find him in his creation.
In Cardinal Dulles's case, it led him eventually to just about the most religious-institution "insider" status (cardinal) that one can imagine.
I would say that we don't have to be cardinals of the church. But if the Revelation in nature doesn't lead us to a lively faith in the Trinity (including acknowledging Jesus's saving words and deeds), then it doesn't seem sufficient. I know that not everyone wants to hear this view :-). But it's what I think.
And I disagree. God has created a path for everyone. That path may include a belief that Jesus was God, and it may not. But I don’t question God’s plan, nor do I agree that Christianity is the “best” way to God. To Holiness. It’s one path.
DeleteIt’s God that all religions seek. And most Nones seek God too, including those who find God in nature, in the universe, whether first glimpsed in a budding cherry blossom, or by gazing at the night sky. The flower led one man into institutional religion. But it could also have led him away from it. As it has for many.
This is a perfect example of what clerics do - refuse to open their minds and listen. Listen to learn. Simply asserting that they are right - so why bother listening to those who don’t find God in a church? And those who don’t find God in church will continue to leave, and the clerics and other handwringers will continue to wring their hands and complain because collections are down.
I don't need to be a cleric to wring my hands. I'm a parent, and my hand-wringing about my own children's lack of attachment to the church is no different than any other older parent's. Including my own parents.
DeleteJim, my kids are a bit older than yours, so a bit of encouragement. God isn't finished with them yet. I was really only hand-wringing about one of ours. I think he kind of took a vacation from going to church very often when he was in college. But then he got married (in the church) and they have 3 kids. I think they are finding that having a church community helps them be better parents. The older son was always devout, and still is. He is married too but they don't have children. Pretty much they are now past that window, and that is fine, they seem very happy.
DeleteJim, what you said about Cardinal Dulles made me think of Brother Lawrence, who wrote the letters that made up the book The Practice of The Presence of God. The thing that drew him into a deeper relationship with God was seeing a bare tree in winter, and realizing how it would be transformed in the spring. He wasn't a cardinal, but became a Carmelite monk. He lived in the 1600s. God can definitely draw us in through the contemplation of nature if we are open to him. The more we are open to him the deeper he will draw us in.
ReplyDeleteHere is my radical and thoroughly heretical view. I think Christianity (including Catholicism) should be almost entirely concerned with Jesus. He was fascinating, and Churches are (or have become) boring.
ReplyDeleteDavid, yeah, if it's not about Jesus, we have lost the plot.
DeleteLifeless and boring, in my experience occurs in parishes preoccupied with "correct" observances of rules and rites promulgated by theologians and liturgists, and enforced by Church Ladies vs actual teachings of Jesus or the lived experience of Christians. I'm sure that there are Christian parishes or congregations that do this.
DeleteDavid, I exchange comments on FB with a friend of my son. He is a dedicated Jew. And he agrees with you about Jesus being a fascinating guy and a great teacher. He gets frustrated that so many alleged Christians who support trump seem to know less about what Jesus taught than he does. And he’s not Christian.
DeleteLifeless and boring. Maybe that’s really the reason so many find God in the natural world - it’s neither lifeless nor boring. It’s “awesome” - literally.
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DeleteOff topic - Jean, with your love of the saints, did you ever see this movie - St Vincent?
ReplyDelete. I think I’m going to rent it.
https://www.americamagazine.org/catholic-movie-club/2025/09/05/bill-murray-saint-vincent-catholic-movie-club/
Kinda Hallmarky-schmaltzy-predictable, but entertaining-uplifting. Bill Murray is fun to watch, and I liked the way the notion of sainthood is presented. Would be a good selection for confirmation classes, imo.
DeleteThanks, Jean. It sounds just like what I’m looking for - a great escape movie!
DeleteI think we're all cultivating some schlocky pleasures to stay sane right now. If you like "St Vincent," you might like "Millions."
DeleteI’ll put it on the list. Another movie I haven’t heard of previously.St Vincent is reviewed in America this week. We will watch it in a couple of days, when we finish our current schlock.
Delete"About a Boy" is another heartwarmer. It's not overtly Catholic or religious, but certainly spiritual. It follows a hedonist (Hugh Grant, who else?) coming to terms with the shallowness of his life. It is also pretty funny. And there's always "Groundhog Day."
DeleteAll this talk of leaving things makes me reflect on what I’VE left, kinda “left in place”. The genocide and the unconditional bipartisan support for it has killed off any residue of patriotism in me. Absolute zero. I don’t really disrespect the flag because I wouldn’t waste my time. It’s just a cloth now. It’s not as if I feel the country’s gone bad. I believe now that it was never all that great, having been born in capitalist greed, slavery and genocide. The historical greatness in this country resides in the people who opposed its inhumanities. But whatever gains that were made seem to be going away quickly. Beyond this, I’m even starting to believe that all governments are demonic and the bigger they are, the worse they are. I wish the US and all the world powers could balkanize into smaller, more harmless entities. And then we need to start something new. If the human race survives climate change, and I hope that it does, maybe we’ll reset our relationship with nature and each other. Or maybe God will try again and upgrade some other species.
ReplyDeleteThe greatness in the US was always in its aspirational documents and the people who were willing to extend rights and freedoms in radical ways given the norms of the times--to slaves, women, religious weirdos and pacifists, child workers, LGBT people, etc.
DeleteI find my little chats with our mayor, who is also our mail lady, salubrious. She can't politick on the job as a federal employee, but she has said that letters and calls DO make a difference. Politicians at the local level are always comparing notes about what they hear from constituents. It's why we have more cops and a better library director. She pointed out GOP senators who used info from constituent letters to push back on RFK's vaccine policies.
She thinks that when people cling tightest to their bad ideas and are most belligerent is when they're most besieged. She thinks Trump is under tremendous negative pressure--hence the nutty tweets, parades, and fawning from cabinet members--and that an 80 year old man cannot sustain that pressure for another four years.
Let's hope.
Jean I think your mail lady/mayor is right. Yeah Trump seems to be frantically flailing after any kind of distraction... from what?the e
DeleteAnd RFK seems to be the lightning rod drawing some meaningful pushback. His latest thing is that Tylenol causes autism. Wait a minute, I thought it was supposed to be vaccines? He's so hell bent on eliminating autism. Does he think he is ? Thing with Tylenol is, everyone has taken it. It's the only pain reliever doctors let pregnant women take. Seems like he wants to make things more difficult for them than they already are
"the e" autocorrect typo
DeleteI don't know that I would wish for balkanization. Historically that hasn't worked out particularly well.
DeleteKatherine “ yeah, if it's not about Jesus, we have lost the plot.”
DeleteIt appears that this is the case - they lost the plot.
Based on my past experiences in the pews, beginning around 1990 maybe, and what I read these days - I read a lot since I no longer go to church- I would say that most of organized Christianity in America lost the plot many years ago. In the RCC, Francis tried to bring the church back to the gospels, but most of the American bishops ignored him - some were openly hostile. Most of the bishops and priests ( based on what I’ve read and on election results) were focused on right- wing politics. The laser focus on abortion turned them away from Jesus to the GOP. Eventually they sold their souls to MAGA, with a few weak complaints now and then about how immigrants are being treated.
Balkanization - i really wish it was easy to break up the country into two. But it’s not. I read that Washington, Oregon, California and Hawaii are forming some kind of health- vaccination coalition to push back on RFK.apparently several New England states are considering a similar initiative. I haven’t looked at the details.
DeleteI don’t know much about RFK personally. The rumors about Barron Trump being on the “ autism spectrum “ have been around since the first administration and is part of the reason Trump hates Rosie O’ Donnell, who tried to commiserate wit him as another parent of a child “ on the spectrum “. Does RFK Jr have a child or grandchild or other close family member who is autistic?
Re Disney World these days - Abigail Disney ( granddaughter of Roy and great- niece of Walt) has a letter to the editor in the NYT wholeheartedly agreeing with the criticism is the article about how it’s now only for the rich. She considers it a complete betrayal of the vision her great- uncle and grandfather had for Disney.
Jean, I guess I better send my letters out quickly while they can still read cursive. I hear postcards are good, too.
Delete"Does RFK Jr have a child or grandchild or other close family member who is autistic?" I don't know about that. He himself has some major issues. But I think that his issues have more to do with drug use when he was younger and dumb things he does like swim in polluted water (maybe that's where you get "brain worms"?). He has fried more than a few neurons. Trump saw fit to make a tin foil hat crackpot the head of an agency responsible for safeguarding health in the US. Bad as the Epstein stuff is, this decision is going to potentially affect millions more people.
DeleteNo, RFK has no autistic children.
DeleteI agree with Katherine 100 percent that RFK's policies will have some pretty bad far-reaching consequences, way more than that Epstein thing.
Greg Palast, an investigative journo and sometime collaborator of RFK Jr, became increasingly concerned with RFK's preoccupation with government conspiracies. I'm not a fan of Palast's semi-gonzo style, but he voiced his concerns when RFK threw in with MAGA:
https://www.gregpalast.com/i-was-on-the-phone-with-rfk-jr-when-he-lost-his-mind/
Thanks for the link, Jean. I actually hadn't paid much attention to RFK Jr prior to the election cycle and didn't know he had previously done some serious journalism, and had been a professor of environmental journalism. Yeah, obviously something happened mentally.
DeleteI think the Kennedy name and $$ opened a lot of doors for RFK Jr. His own sibs and cousins say he's nutty as a fruitcake. Caroline Kennedy's letter to the Senate prior to his confirmation hearing is pretty damning: https://youtu.be/VFw24zVO_3E?si=4PRUCtvIg2O1Tj7e
DeleteArguably, Trump's nominees and appointees are even more dangerous to the country than he is. The rubberstamp GOP Senate isn't blameless. I don't wish to overtly politick, but I'll just remark that, speaking for myself, I won't be voting for any GOP candidates to fill Dick Durbin's Senate seat in 2026.
DeleteI'll be voting for Dan Osborn, the independent candidate running against billionaire Pete Ricketts. Ricketts presently holds a Senate seat and is a Trumper. The Democrats aren't running anyone, an independent has a better chance of winning.
DeleteMichigan's US Senate seat is up for grabs as is the governorship. Too many people have shown interest in one or both offices to know how it might shake out. And reliably moderate Republicans I might have voted for in the past have now sworn fealty to MAGA or might not be able to resist MAGA if elected.
DeleteMy overall feeling is that Michigan will get redder thanks to voter apathy in blue areas where the state's bipartisan districting committee basically eliminated majority black districts in urban centers. There may also be a sense among some independents that more Repubs in our congressional contingent will please Trump and keep ICE and the worst damage to the auto industry at bay.