From The Economist
By choosing Robert Prevost the cardinals seek unity in a fractured church
Donald trump was not in the end chosen to be pope, as he had jokingly suggested. But on May 8th the cardinals of the Roman Catholic church did elect an American, breaking a taboo against the identification of a geopolitical superpower with a spiritual one.
It is unlikely that the American president will be overjoyed by the choice of Cardinal Robert Prevost. The new pontiff sent out a first message of his intent by choosing as his papal name Leo XIV: a homage to the last pope to adopt that name, who reigned from 1878 to 1903. Leo XIII was a progressive by the standards of his times. Known for his efforts to find an accommodation with the modern world, he was the father of the Catholic church’s social doctrine and the author of a seminal encyclical, Rerum Novarum (Of New Things).
Among the most pressing questions the cardinal-electors had to answer was whether, at a convulsive moment in international affairs, they wanted a pope ready to use the moral authority of the pontificate in the same way as his predecessor, to challenge the precepts of the new, populist right, notably in respect of migration. In electing Leo, who cited Francis in his first address, they have opted for a fair measure of continuity with the late pope’s approach. And the election of an exceptionally cosmopolitan American smacks of outright defiance of Mr Trump and his aggressive nationalism. On X, a social-media platform, then-Cardinal Prevost rebuked Vice-President J.D. Vance for his views on immigration. He also retweeted a post decrying the president’s attitude towards Kilmar Abrego Garcia, who was deported from America to El Salvador.
The American pope shares the environmental concerns of his predecessor and supports the decentralisation of the church that Francis encouraged (within strict limits). “Dominion over nature”—the task that God gave to humanity—should not become “tyrannical”, he told a seminar in Rome last year. It must be a “relationship of reciprocity”.
But Leo is firmly opposed to receiving women into holy orders as deacons, let alone as priests. And he is unlikely to be as welcoming in his approach to gay people as his predecessor was. In a 2012 address to bishops, he regretted the promotion of “sympathy for beliefs and practices that are at odds with the gospel”, citing as examples the “homosexual lifestyle” and “alternative families comprised of same-sex partners and their adopted children”.
The conclave once more validated the saying that “he who enters a pope leaves a cardinal”. Pietro Parolin, Francis’s secretary of state, had been the firm favourite of betters and bookies. The outcome also confounded predictions of a drawn-out election. Pope Leo was chosen on the fourth ballot on the day after the opening of the conclave. He becomes the 265th occupant of the throne of St Peter at a time of crisis and change. But in its two millennia the papacy has seen plenty of both. ■
"The cardinals who chose him eschewed others more clearly associated with the liberal wing of the church and voted instead for someone with a good chance of bridging the chasm that has opened in Catholicism between progressives and traditionalists."
ReplyDeleteIs the American Church really all that divided now? Haven't most progressives moved out, moved on, or learned not to rock the boat?
It's hard to say what the Economist meant in that passage, but it may have been a reference to the hierarchy rather than to the church as a whole. I don't know if there ever have been enough truly progressive bishops to merit the term "wing", but there is a liberal wing, with folks like Cardinal McElroy and my own Cardinal Cupich. I guess the Economist is saying Leo isn't exactly from that wing, but perhaps he has the respect and affection of that wing?
Delete"And he is unlikely to be as welcoming in his approach to gay people as his predecessor was. "
ReplyDeleteIt's possible. Let us see how it pans out. People do change - some do, anyway. Even Francis was a bit complicated on this issue: he was busted a couple of times for using a derogatory term toward gays.
I think many Catholics and probably most clergy, if they're honest, view LGBTQ people, remarried divorcees, unmarried parents, addicts, cohabitors, etc. as problem people. It's a pain in the neck to have to accommodate people who don't follow the rules without pissing off the good Catholics. I think that's why there was backlash against Francis: If he thinks he shouldn't judge them and even blesses their "friendships," why are the rest of us bothering to struggle with rules we don't like?"
DeleteThe Congregationalists, Methodists, and Episcopalians in my area have "inclusive outreach," and that's where the people who present problems for Catholics and fundigelicals go.
God reaches everyone under this arrangement, but it also keeps Christianity fractured.
I used to care about schism. I still do, kinda, but the schisms have been going on for a thousand years, if you count the split from the Orthodox, and I doubt it can be closed. The trend for several centuries has been fragmentation. Build a church that emphasizes only the parts of Jesus's message you like. Set up roadblocks to keep the riff raff out.
Recently, Israel attacked a humanitarian ship transporting aid to Gaza in Maltese air space. If people can’t see that modern Israel isn’t the resurrection of ancient Israel by now, I guess they never will.
DeleteJean, during my first exit to the EC ( there were two exits) we went to a nearby EC parish to try it out. I loved the priest and we stayed for 3 years, until he left to teach at Sewanee. There was a large charismatic community there and he managed the delicate task of keeping both the mainstream Episcopalians and the charismatics happy, primarily through different services. We went to the unofficial charismatic service once and didn’t go back - it wasn’t for us! He had a Bible study on Wednesdays and invited me to join it. He knew I was a refugee from the nearby Catholic parish. I’ve not forgotten one thing he said about the varying strands of christian belief - wagon wheel christianity. He believed that the differing denominations and versions of Christianity were like the spokes on the wheel - viewing the hub from different vantage points, but all focused on the hub - Jesus and the gospels. I don’t think Christian denominational unity is possible. It may not even be desirable - maybe it’s needed to have different views of the hub to better grasp the important things while letting the rest go.
DeleteThe Wagon Wheel is a nice metaphor, but Millennialists, proponents of the prosperity gospel, and nondenoms who are heavily into mixing politics and religion are not attached to a hub that teaches anything remotely resembling Christ's two great commandments, imo.
DeleteWhen I went to that priest’s Bible study MAGA “ Christians” weren’t yet on the horizon. It was long ago. I doubt that this priest ( he died of a heart attack in his 50s) would even consider them to be Christians with a place on the wheel.
DeleteBut in my life, I have found that looking at Christ from different perspectives is often a good thing - offering different understandings, perspectives and interpretations than those I grew up with as a Catholic. I was shocked to learn in high school that most Christians while accepting the story of the virgin birth of Jesus, do not believe that Mary was “ ever virgin”. They may accept the scriptures mentioning Jesus’s brothers and sisters as referring to brothers and sisters - not cousins or other relatives.
It was many years before I learned much Bible history about the how the Bible was written, and by whom, and when.
My main concern now is what he will do about the genocide and ethnic cleansing being perpetrated by the Israelis on the Palestinians. Israel cloaks its inhumanity with the “anti-zionism = antisemitism” fallacy. The Church and its leaders are susceptible because of the real history of antisemitism in the Church. Nevertheless, the enabling of the State of Israel is only strengthening antisemitic tropes. The population of Israel is fully behind this killing frenzy as were germans in WWII. People are the same everywhere and always. This is good news and bad news.
ReplyDeleteWhat can he do about it, do you think?
DeleteSpeak out. Agree with the UN. Call it “genocide” because that is what it is. Pope Francis stopped short of calling it this but said it is no war which implies genocide. Right now, this is the worst thing in the world, an abomination taking place before our eyes.
DeleteStanley, do you really think that either Netanyahu or trump would pay the slightest attention to what the Catholic Pope says? He can speak out, as Francis did With the same impact- none. I’m not sure that the Gaza abomination is genocide, technically speaking anyway, so Francis may have wanted to be careful in his choice of words. The Pope might be able to move a few American Catholics to write to their political reps and the WH but so relatively few that it won’t have any of them worrying about their own re-elections. And that’s the only thing they really care about - themselves.
DeleteI spent one week in a similar community in the Dominican Republic around 1996 and it transformed me completely. I can picture the environment in Peru and have seen a couple of photos of it that remind me strongly of the place I lived in the DR for only one week - I am thrilled that this Pope has that background. I went to the DR as a political “conservative” and came back as a political progressive. The ground for this political transformation had been prepared by my spiritual transformation because of Centering Prayer.
DeleteCopied from a FB post.
Pope Leo XIV
1975: This man made a shocking decision:
He rejected Harvard Law to serve Peru's poorest villages
Now, he's the 267th Pope
• Speaks ancient Incan
• Walked 8hrs to help the poor
• First American born ever
The untold story of new elected Pope Robert Prevost: In 1975
Robert Prevost was at the top of his game. Chicago math teacher. Devout Catholic. Accepted into Harvard Law. He had everything a young man could dream of, But then—he made a decision that no one saw coming. He said no to Harvard
No to a six-figure future. No to fame. No to comfort
And yes—to something few dare to choose: A life of complete surrender. He joined a missionary group and moved to Peru. Not to the cities. Not to the tourist spots .
But to the *most* remote villages—where children die from treatable diseases. And families walk miles just for clean water. There were no roads. No running water. No WiFi
Just mountains. Silence And poverty. But he embraced it like home
Robert didn’t just live *among* the people. He became *one* of them
• Learned Quechua—the sacred language of the Incas
• Carried food on foot for days
• Slept on dirt floors with the villagers
• Prayed under the stars
When he wasn’t building shelters. He taught math to barefoot kids under broken rooftops. When he wasn’t teaching. He carried the sick on donkeys to get help. When he wasn’t healing. He listened—truly listened—to stories no one else cared to hear.
While his friends from back home became lawyers and doctors. He became something else entirely.
A shepherd
A brother
A quiet warrior of faith
And slowly—his legend grew. His acts weren’t broadcasted.But they echoed through the Andes
Bishops noticed
Priests noticed
And eventually—the Vatican noticed
They called him back to lead his entire Augustinian order. From serving a village. To overseeing 2,800 brothers in over 40 countries.
Still—he kept his same sandals
Still—he walked with the poor
Still—he rejected luxury
Then came the call that changed everything:
Rome wanted him closer. In 2020 He was appointed Archbishop and assigned to govern other bishops globally. It was rare. But Robert had never chased tradition. He wasn’t just fluent in Latin or Canon Law.
He was fluent in *compassion*
In humility
In listening
In *presence*
The Vatican didn’t just see a priest. They saw a *leader with soul*. On September 30, 2023. Pope Francis made it official:
Robert Prevost was named a Cardinal. Just one step below the Pope
And then… in 2025
History was made. For the first time ever
An American
A former math teacher
A missionary to the forgotten
Was elevated as the 267th Pope of the Catholic Church
And he didn’t forget the people who shaped him. To this day. Pope Robert still returns to the same villages.
Still prays in Quechua
Still sits on dirt floors
Still holds the hands of the elderly in silence
Because leadership he believes:
Is about *presence* not position
The world is obsessed with power.
But Robert Prevost proves:
• Titles mean nothing without service
• Knowledge is useless without love
• And faith—without sacrifice—is noise
He turned down the world. And changed it instead.
Shared from Marlon Eugenio Apat's post.
Anne, they have stopped all food and aid to Gaza. They have attacked a ship with aid in Maltese air space with Maltese permission. Surely, the pontiff can have some influence on Malta, of all places. Palestinians everywhere of all faiths were overjoyed to hear the previous Pope’s words. Maybe his words aren’t for the fat, happy American Catholics. Maybe it’s for the oppressed and outcast. And maybe it’ll put some light on the Christianoid fascists like Vance. How can the Pope NOT speak out?
DeleteStanley, I agree this is a catastrophe. The pope should speak out, of course.
DeleteThe reports are confusing. Some are contradictory. The ship was attacked in international waters. Malta is a very conservative Catholic country and a haven for rich people who want a second passport - available with an investment of $ 1 million or so. It was also Burke’s exile assignment after being kicked out of the Vatican. It made the news too a few years ago when a woman vacationing there who was dying from a miscarriage was denied an emergency lifesaving abortion and was flown by helicopter to Mallorca, Spain. She lived long enough to get the abortion there. And survived. That case was much like the one in Ireland when a woman who was denied an abortion died, resulting in the outrage that led to the vote legalizing abortion in Ireland.
DeleteOne report says that the ship damage wasn’t too serious and has been repaired. Other reports differ. Here are a couple of reports from usually legitimate sources
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20250505-malta-brings-six-crew-members-off-ship-in-drone-strike-row
https://www.reuters.com/world/malta-repair-aid-ship-reportedly-bombed-by-drones-2025-05-06/
And this
https://timesofmalta.com/article/gaza-aid-ship-dark-repairs-we-feel-like-ignored.1109468
https://timesofmalta.com/article/the-drone-attack-malta-total-lack-diplomatic-response.1109367
PS
DeleteNone of the reports I’ve read from non Freedom Flotilla sources said that Israel attacked the ship in Maltese airspace with the permission of Malta. Since the ship was in international waters, it’s likely that the source of the drones was in international airspace also. Israel isn’t admitting anything, unsurprisingly.
It’s very important to be as thorough in fact- finding as possible with these issues. Right now the facts about the attack on the ship are not really clear.
The tragedy in Gaza is clear - but it’s doubtful that the Pope can convince Israel to cease its attacks. It has no leverage. The US does, so unless the Pope can sway Trump ( unlikely) nothing will change.
Pope Francis spoke out. I’m sure Leo will also. But political reality means that it is very likely that his words will not have any more impact than Francis’s words did.
In looking up the definition it seems that Gaza may qualify as genocide even though only about half of Palestinians live in Gaza, the West Bank and the Palestinian area of Israel. Gaza isn’t a nation. And Israel isn’t trying to kill all Palestinians nor all Muslims ( yet) . But it does seem that Israel’s actions do fit the commonly accepted definition .
DeletePol Pot’s massacre of the intellectual tusk class in his own country is defined as a genocide even though it wasn’t an attack on a different country, religious or racial group.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/05/04/upshot/ten-minute-challenge-starry-night.html
There are zero boundaries set for Israel by either this administration or the previous one. They can do whatever they want. Both our major parties are pro-zionist thanks to AIPAC and zionist jews like Shumer. Steve Bannon hates the new pope which is a positive for me. Which indicates Steve Bannon seems to think the pope does have influence. Moving American Catholics is the only chance, of affecting US policy, remote as that is. Personally, I AM pessimistic. But eventually, after a lot of bloodshed, Israel will collapse following ours which seems inevitable. At least some goods may come out of our coming misfortune and the dissolution of Israel would hopefully be one of them. Also, no aid has been allowed into Gaza for sixty days. It seems like “genocide” is a proper description but I’m open to using an alternative word, if it is more pejorative. Whatever it is, it is mass slaughter and starvation of an indigenous population who were never human in the eyes of their persecutors.
DeleteIf intention is a necessary condition for genocide, then I don't think what Israel is doing to Gazans qualifies as genocide. Israel's stated intention is to get the hostages returned. I believe that. It's also clear, although I am not certain whether it has stated this, that it also intends to eradicate Hamas. The fundamental change is that Israel will no longer allow Hamas to use civilians as human shields. When Hamas does so, Israel gives the Gazan shields a choice: get out of the way, or Israel will blow you up in ln order to kill those you are shielding.
ReplyDeletePlease don't take this comment as a defense of Israel's strategy and tactics. So far, Israel has been able to effect the return of some but not all of the hostages. And Hamas surely has been degraded but has not been eradicated - and it still rules Gaza. We might say that Israel has, so far, only partially succeeded - or hasn't succeeded, yet. At this point, it's more than fair to wonder whether it would ever succeed.
And the carnage and suffering have been hard to fathom. And the possibility of a lasting peace has been set back for at least another generation. At least by this calculus, the strategy is a catastrophic failure.
Just as many of us here in the US oppose Donald Trump's efforts to tear down the international order but are powerless to stop him, so there are Israelis who oppose Netanyahu's policies. Just as we say, "Don't judge the US by our president", there are Israelis who would say the same.
Jim, over the years, I have gone from “Israel is a great thing” to “Israel was bad but it’s better now” to “Israel got better but now it’s worse because of Netanyahu” to “Israel has always been a ruthless, inhumane, racist enterprise” by a subset of europeans on a quest similar to our appropriation of land in the 19th century. There are Israelis who advocate for peace but they are a minority. The opinions of the majority of Israelis are all over social media and they aren’t pretty. I believe they stand at 95% in support of what is being done. The Hamas excuse doesn’t work. They excuse the bombing that way but why are they starving children to death (or lifelong infirmity)? Why are they blocking medical aid, sniping children, journalists and medical personnel? The Hamas excuse has been reduced to absurdity. The truce was broken by Israel. They were getting hostages back but couldn’t wait to resume their genocidal project. If I’m ever taken hostage by Hamas or anybody, please don’t anybody use it as an excuse to kill, mutilate or starve children. Or anybody.
DeleteRegarding Hamas, one man’s terrorist group is another man’s resistance group. Whatever Hamas has done pales before the mass cruelty of the Israelis.
As of March, Israelis are not 95 percent in favor of the way Netanyahu has handled Gaza, tho the ultra-Zionists are all over social media making a lot of noise. If this story is accurate, most Israelis see continued slaughter as a threat to national security and favor a negotiated peace.
Deletehttps://www.cnn.com/2025/03/19/middleeast/israel-gaza-netanyahu-protest-war-resume-intl/index.html
I cannot conceive how the remaining hostages are still alive, not given the shelling and lack of food and water in there.
I get that Hamas started this mess and that Gazans voted Hamas in there (though there are rumors that Hamas threatened and terrorized voters to get in; who knows?). But this continued bombardment of Gaza to smithereens looks more like punishment rather than defense and rescue.
Netanyahu's overall approval ratings were somewhere in the 40 percent range in December, according to Statista, that site Jack likes. But that's enough to give him a plurality in their parliamentary system, and pushes him over the top to form a government if he makes deals with the most zealous Zionist elements.
Like Trump, Netanyahu is a crook and a political survivor.
No, they aren’t approving of how Netanyahu has been handling things but it would be a mistake to believe this Israeli 40% cares about the Palestinians. Yes, they care about what happens to their own, the hostages taken by Hamas. In this, they disagree with Netanyahu on tactics but humanitarian concern is not really a factor. Analogously, genocide of the Native Americans proceeded under both Democratic and Republican administrations. Of course, there are wonderful, courageous Israelis who seek a just peace and equality with the Palestinians but they are a small minority. And I disagree that Hamas started this mess. It started even before 1948 with its forced displacement of 750,000 people accompanied by massacres by the Zionists. It started in 1898 with the start of the Zionist movement, the Balfour Agreement giving support from the British Empire for the Zionist cause, the suppression of Palestinian uprising against the British with the cooperation of armed Zionist settlers, the ongoing agitation and terrorism by the Irgun and the Haganah paramilitary. The reality of Israel is wrapped in myth and propaganda and its neverending ruthlessness cloaked under exaggerated claims of antisemitism.
DeleteIsrael's policies against non Jews is yet another object lesson about religious nationalism. The same could be said for Western Europe in the Middle Ages and its persecutions of Jews, Muslims, Cathars, etc. Lots of Americans want Christian nationalism here. These systems inevitably lead to "purifications" in the form of sectarian strife, hate speech, segregation, expulsions, and exterminations.
DeleteStanley, there have been recent vocal protests in Israel led by Holocaust survivors and Holocaust descendants. They do care that Israel is acting towards the Palestinians the way the Nazis acted towards Jews and are protesting publicly. Don’t tar all Israeli Jews with the same brush. Nor American Jews either.
DeleteThe atrocities that have been committed since Oct 7, 2023 are horrible. Now Netanyahu has announced that they plan to move all Palestinians in Gaza to a narrow strip of land.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-cabinet-approves-expansion-gaza-offensive-broadcaster-kan-reports-2025-05-05/
I have no ideas about how this endless cycle of violence can be stopped. Neither side seems to really want peace. Hamas persists in provoking with extreme violence and measures such as kidnapping. Israel seems intent on total destruction of Palestinians. The mutual hatred is so deep. Sadly Trump really does dream of developing resorts on the Gaza coast. His personal greed alone would lead him to continue to support Netanyahu. So no Pope nor even Catholic GOP voters persuaded by Pope Leo have much chance of convincing him to withdraw US support. It’s pretty much just magical thinking. We have always supported Israel for geopolitical strategic purposes and it seems a pipe dream to think that we would change course now - no matter what.
Since I have lived in a majority Jewish community for most of my life I wanted to learn about my neighbors to try to understand them, their history and their religion. So I have done a lot of reading over the years.
DeleteJesus and the apostles were observant Jews their entire lives. Many NT scriptures and Jesus’s teachings were taken directly from the Hebrew Scriptures . Our Christian beliefs and teachings are all rooted in Judaism. Few Christians know much about the roots of our teachings.
I have read a great deal about the Holocaust. And also have read a fair amount about the 2000 year history of persecution of Jews after they left Jerusalem (starting after the destruction of the Second Temple around the year 70 CE), with most in the Jewish diaspora eventually living in Europe. The pogroms, forced moves, confinement to ghettos, forced conversions, and other forms of persecution of the Jews from the time they arrived in Europe in the early first and second centuries were often at the behest of the Catholic Church. It’s a very shameful part of Catholic history.
So I understand why so many European Jews grabbed the chance after the war in Europe ended to have a homeland under their own control, especially in the original home of Jews. The Holocaust was mass murder of literally unthinkable proportions. Having their own nation, a true homeland under their own control, was a dream for Jews. But kicking out the Palestinians, taking back land after 2000 years has been way harder than the idealists imagined after WWII , creating another cycled of atrocities.
I disagree with this statement as it ignores a whole lot of history and complexities
“Israel has always been a ruthless, inhumane, racist enterprise” by a subset of europeans on a quest similar to our appropriation of land in the 19th century. ”
I don’t think it was motivated for the reasons that our country promoted the westward expansion - they were very different situations, motivated by very different circumstances, even though both involved a land grab.
I have not ignored the history. “The Hundred Year War on Palestine” by Middle East historian Rashid Khalid covers the negation of the Palestinians by the western powers in the interests of those powers rather well. Governments that perform genocide have no legitimacy. Governments that support governments that perform genocide have no legitimacy. Trump is accelerating the demise of the American Empire. For many parts of the world, including Gaza, that may turn out to be a very good thing. Maybe that actually IS why we have Trump. All the protests and words by the popes may have no effect, but whether it’s the movement of history or the Hand of God, something is happening.
DeleteI've read that Zionists purchased the land for the original Israeli settlers to move to. In that sense, it wasn't a "land grab". If the Palestinians were displaced, their own elites cooperated in it.
DeleteIt seems to me that is an important factor in the 20th and 21st century history of Palestinians: nobody cares about them. A glance at a map show that Gaza shares a border, not only with Israel but with Egypt. Could Egypt have absorbed hundreds of thousands of Gazan refugees during this war? It's a lot to ask of any nation - but perhaps Egypt could do more than it has.
I don't agree that Israelis wish is to eviscerate the Gazans. If Gazans - not in the 1940s or 1960s or 1980s, but the Gazans of this generation - had been willing to live in peace with Israel, Israelis as a whole would have been very glad to accept that, including building trade relationships with Gazans and providing aid. Not all Israelis - there always have been 'ultras' who want to push non-Jews out of what they conceive of as their biblical homeland - but a large majority. Instead, Israel has been subject to shelling of its cities over many years during the intifadas, and then the attack of October 7th. My point here is that Israeli anger is not rooted in what happened during biblical or medeival times or even 100 years ago; it's rooted in the lived experience of today's citizens. In essence, Israel is now saying, "Enough. We've put up with this danger to ourselves and our children for too long. We're not going to put up with it anymore. If you desire war, we will give it to you."
Egypt has been taking some medical cases, particularly children. However, it has maintained a peace treaty with Israel since Pres Carter got that going, and it will not take in Palestinians en masse due to fears of messing up that treaty and breeding terrorism in Egypt. Jordan and Turkey have taken hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. That has stressed Jordan's resources, never large to begin with, and I have never understood why we don't do more to support them. Palestinians in Turkey continue to live in refugee camps, and last I heard, there were no plans to assimilate them. Turkey's got it's own domestic problems at the moment.
DeletePresident Trump wants to clear out Gaza and put the Palestinians "somewhere nice," but where would that be? Syria? Lebanon? Iraq? Iran? Yemen?
Right - President Trump wins the prize for actually articulating a genocidal policy.
DeleteWhy are Israeli snipers shooting children in the head and chest? What justifies cutting off food and medicine and destroying water sources? Why do IDF soldiers post horrid videos without shame? The asymmetry of power matches the asymmetry of destruction. The Palestinians can expect the same justice and peace from the Israelis that the Cherokees received from us. The Warsaw Ghetto resisted the Nazis and got the same as Gaza. That is the template.
DeleteIt’s been a super busy day. I am no more an expert on what is truly going on in Gaza ( beyond the horror of 50,000 deaths) than I am expert in a whole lot of other geopolitical issues. I am horrified like everyone else. I recently read that the polls in Israel indicate that 70% of Israelis oppose what Netanyahu is doing. I hadn’t heard anything about snipers targeting children. So I looked it up. I found an interesting story in The Times if Israel, rated center or slightly center- left by media bias groups, and not as tilted to being pro- Israel as might be expected.
DeleteI’m not willing to write off ALL Jews and ALL. Israelis any more than I have ever been able to write off all Muslims for what the various terrorists groups have done, including Hamas with a history of putting their weapons in schools, hospitals, nursing homes and large residential buildings to protect themselves when they attack and to be able to put all the blame on Israel if there is a counter- attack.. I don’t support either group,and view it as a pretty much hopeless situation.
Here is the article from the Times of Israel that indicates that the situation may not be as clear or black and white as first reported.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/after-doctors-accuse-israel-of-shooting-gazan-kids-experts-see-need-for-a-second-opinion/
I wonder why trump hasn’t mentioned resettling the Palestinians in Saudi Arabia? After all, it’s a very rich country with a whole lot of empty space and everyone is the same religion.
DeleteApparently the subject didn’t come up for some reason.
Story in Religion News of American Jews rejection of trumps policies
Deletehttps://religionnews.com/2025/05/14/poll-american-jews-overwhelmingly-reject-trump-and-his-antisemitism-policies/
Hamas, wherever they are on the scale from good to evil, was born of decades of Israeli injustice and apartheid inequality with respect to the Palestinian inhabitants. It mirrors, with much less political and military power and organization, the evils perpetrated by the Israeli state and the Zionist cause. What serious threat does Hamas present to Israel? How many fighter jets do they have? How many armored personnel carriers and tanks? How many surveillance and killer drones? How many howitzers? How much AI targeting software? Compared to the armed might of Israel backed by the unconditional support of our country, they are mosquitoes. And it is hard to believe that the Israeli government, with its world class espionage and surveillance, did not know the attack would happen and that they permitted it on purpose. Add to that the complete bias of mainstream media, including the NYT, the total enclosure and corruption of both political parties by AIPAC, the deportation of students protesting genocide, I have to ask what the hell is going on here? NO country has influence over this country that comes close to Israel. Their influence rises to the level of control. Am I antisemitic? More likely misanthropic. I just want human beings to act like human beings towards other human beings. But overwhelming asymmetric power and influence seems to override any empathy for the powerless.
DeleteAnne, I read some of the Times of Israel article but had to reboot my computer because of some kind of lockout attack. Of course, Israel media will blame Hamas. Hamas could do such a thing, mirroring Israel's own false flag operations, dating back to before the actual establishment of Israel, and its own Hannibal Directive considering it better to kill their own citizens than have them used as hostages. But people that drop HE bombs on civilians in tents, interdict food and medicinal supplies, whose soldiers pose mockingly in the women's underwear of houses they cleared, are definitely capable of killing children with snipers. Our soldiers did it in Viet Nam and it wasn't out of the ordinary there. The only thing I want is ALL support of this country for Israel to go to zero. I don't expect the US to do this because it is the right thing to do and the US is as immoral an entity as any power bloc. I will no longer stand for any US national anthem or salute the flag. I AM an American citizen and, for that reason, I consider myself to be under God's judgement as much as any other citizen, including Trump.
ReplyDeleteFrom what I can tell via a bit of poking around on Google, the most trustworthy news source for the claim that the IDF is shooting Gazan children is this NY Times piece from this past October.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/10/09/opinion/gaza-doctor-interviews.html
The Times of Israel piece that Anne linked to above appears to be a response to the NY Times piece.
The NY Times piece certainly is upsetting. It consists of testimony from doctors, nurses and similar health care workers who have been working in Gaza. It establishes that it's commonplace - a nightly occurrence - for Gazan children with bullet wounds, often in the head, to be admitted to Gaza hospitals. It doesn't establish a definitivbe cause-and-effect link between Israeli Defense Force policies and the killed and wounded children, but it's suggestive enough that it's reasonable to conclude that Israeli forces are responsible for at least part of the carnage.
Whether Israel would hold its soldiers responsible for these war crimes (if indeed that is what is happening) is not really explored in that article.
The article discusses more than the tragedy of children being shot. Here is its summary of the situation (this is from October of last year; presumably, it has become worse since then):
"Now, after more than a year of devastation, estimates of Palestinian deaths range from the tens of thousands to the hundreds of thousands. The International Rescue Committee describes Gaza as “the most dangerous place in the world to be an aid worker, as well as the most dangerous place to be a civilian.” UNICEF rates Gaza as “the most dangerous place in the world to be a child.” Oxfam reports that in Al-Mawasi, the area Israel has designated as the humanitarian safe zone in Gaza, there is one toilet for every 4,130 people. At least 1,470 Israelis have been killed in the Oct. 7 attack and the following war. Half of the hostages who remain in Gaza are reportedly dead. And, while American officials blame Hamas for prolonging the war and hindering negotiations, Israeli news outlets consistently report that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has sabotaged cease-fire talks with both Hamas and Hezbollah while recklessly escalating the conflict instead of reaching an agreement that could achieve many of Israel’s stated war aims, including the release of Israeli hostages."
I do not disagree with the evidence that Israel’s actions since Oct 7, 2023 have been reprehensible. ( I paid no attention at that time to any news because it was shortly after my husband’s fall when he was still at mortal risk in the hospital, fighting for his life, on 100% oxygen while we prayed that they would not have to put him on a ventilator) and just before we flew to California with two days notice. I didn’t follow the news of that war for a long time. It seemed one more war in a long series of wars between Israel and their Arab or Palestinian neighbors. Background noise to me then)
Delete“Israel has always been a ruthless, inhumane, racist enterprise” by a subset of europeans on a quest similar to our appropriation of land in the 19th century. ”
I disagree with the characterization that Israel, most Israelis and perhaps Jews in general can be compared to the evil that was Hitler and the Nazi movement. I don’t believe that most Jews who moved to Israel after the end of WWII were motivated to settle there because they were “ruthless, inhumane and racist” as Stanley seems to claim. I also don’t believe that the agreements made in the late 19th century about that part of the world and later are comparable to the US wars against Native Americans, and the seizure of land that was given to white settlers in the westward expansion. Some of my Irish ancestors probably benefited from those horrors against the Native Americans when they moved from Pennsylvania where they had originally settled after arriving from Ireland (driven out by a different imperial power and potential starvation) to Nebraska about the time the US was giving of land to (white) people who promised to farm it because of the Homestead Act of the 1860s.
As horrible as it is, I don’t agree that Palestinians are being subject to a genocide that is in any way comparable to the Holocaust. The attempted extermination of the Jews was wholesale - Germany, Hungary, Austria, Poland, Czechoslovakia, etc, etc- anywhere that the Germans could reach. Israel is not seeking out the vast majority of Palestinians - the vast majority don’t live in Gaza. Israel is trying to destroy Hamas. But it is not the same level of horror to me as the attempt at total genocide of every single Jew in Europe.
“ The opinions of the majority of Israelis are all over social media and they aren’t pretty. I believe they stand at 95% in support of what is being done”
Citing Israeli or Jewish commentary on social media does not carry the same weight with me as the scientifically conducted polls, the most recent of which indicated that 70% of Israeli do NOT support what is being done.
I have no doubt that individual Israeli soldiers are capable of committing war crimes like shooting children deliberately just as I have no doubt that Muslim extremists do the same (and sometimes use their own children as suicide bombers), and that Americans soldiers have also. I don’t believe that any of us can truly KNOW what is happening most of the time. But the blocking of food and medical aid is official policy it seems by the government of Israel and that seems to me that it must be a war crime. But it’s not all Jews nor all Israelis supporting it any more than all Americans supported the Viet Nam war and war crimes.
The propaganda war between Palestinians and Israelis has been going on for many decades, and it has been in overdrive since Oct 2023. I agree that it's very difficult to discern what is true.
DeleteTo my mind, it makes responsible news reporting organizations indispensable. And yet we live in an age in which they are being dispensed with. Those of us with the means to do so have a social responsibility to pay for the consumption of reliable reporting.
I subscribe to several responsible news sources - all mainstream- partly to help keep them alive. NYT, WaPo (I hate what has happened to it under Bezos but it’s the hometown paper): The Economist and The Atlantic. I also subscribe to America online and Commonweal. National Catholic Reporter is still free. I follow AP and Reuters also. I check the Guardian and BBC news now and then. If I read something on FB (my only social media account) that isn’t sourced, I try to fact check it. My favorite there is Heather Cox Richardson who provides citations for everything as a good college professor should, I also look at Robert Reich on FB occasionally. I see lots of MAGA memes too but try to avoid having the algorithm toss them up by tediously Xing them out when they pop up.
DeleteOn this particular subject, Stanley and I will just have to agree to disagree on certain aspects of the situation. We do agree that it’s horrible, heartbreaking, and probably criminal ( war crimes) at this point. Hadn’t Israel already been charged with war crimes? The US will no longer cooperate with the international war crimes court if I’m not mistaken.
I Pray for peace and hope Somebody up there is listening.