Certain people are having a tizzy because of what Pope Francis allegedly said in an interview in the plane on the way home from his recent trip. (Has that ever happened before?!) The writer who actually gets what he said was David French, in this NYT article: Opinion | Pope Francis Is Turning Certainty on Its Head - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
It should be noted that David French is not a Catholic, but an evangelical Christian. Who has lately been "excommunicated" or "read out of meeting" by his co-believers over not being MAGA.
Update: the formatting is messed up somehow. When I go into edit it is fine. But when I close and save, I go back into the post and it is still messed up. Will keep trying. You have to scroll down a ways for the comments. Sorry about that.
In case you are paywalled out of the article I will excerpt part of it. The italicized sections are from French's article:
"Pope Francis made two comments last week that touched off a tempest in Christendom.
First, during an interreligious meeting at Catholic Junior College in Singapore, he said that religions are “like different languages in order to arrive at God, but God is God for all. And if God is God for all, then we are all sons and daughters of God.”
The idea that we are sons and daughters of God is basic Christian doctrine. He is the creator, and we are his creation. But the pope’s statements go farther than simply recognizing God’s sovereignty. He indicated that other faiths can reach God as well. “But,” he continued, “‘my God is more important than your God!’ Is that true? There’s only one God, and each of us has a language, so to speak, in order to arrive at God.”
Then, in a news conference on his flight home, he addressed the American presidential election and criticized both Kamala Harris and Donald Trump. “Both are against life,” the pope said, Harris because of her stance on abortion and Trump because of his stance on immigration. Pope Francis would not choose between them. Instead, he said, “Which is the lesser evil? That lady or that gentleman? I don’t know. Each person must think and decide according to his or her own conscience.”
The backlash to both these ideas was immediate. Critics accused the pope of being “counter-scriptural.” The archbishop emeritus of Philadelphia, Charles Chaput wrote, “To suggest, even loosely, that Catholics walk a more or less similar path to God as other religions drains martyrdom of its meaning. Why give up your life for Christ when other paths may get us to the same God?” Partisans on both sides were incredulous at the pope’s application of Catholic doctrine and infuriated that he deferred to voters’ individual consciences.I have a different perspective. Pope Francis wasn’t watering down the Christian faith; he was expressing existential humility. He was unwilling to state, definitively, the mind of God and to pass judgment on the souls of others. His words were surprising not because they were heretical in any way, but rather because existential humility contradicts the fundamentalist spirit of much of contemporary American Christianity. His words were less a declaration of truth than an invitation to introspection, a call to examine your conscience."
Consider the contrast between the pope’s reluctance to consign believers in other faiths to hell (much less his willingness to embrace the idea that non-Christians can “arrive at God”) or to take sides in American politics with the willingness of many Christians to declare even fellow believers as lost forever if they hold different views on abortion or the 2024 election.
"...That kind of language is deeply dispiriting, and it’s rampant.
French pretty well expressed what I would want to say. I just have a comment on Archbishop Emeritus Charles Chaput's words: “To suggest, even loosely, that Catholics walk a more or less similar path to God as other religions drains martyrdom of its meaning. Why give up your life for Christ when other paths may get us to the same God?”
I don't think that's what martyrdom means. The martyrs didn't give their lives because other religions don't have a path to God. They died because they wouldn't do what Judas did, that is, they knew Jesus and who he is. But they refused to throw their relationship with him under the bus to save themselves.
Thanks for the link. I was able to read the whole story. The essay runs on a bit, but I understand that shaking that fundie mindset is hard and painful for someone with French's background.
ReplyDeleteI liked this:
"Fundamentalists believe they know exactly how God wants you to vote, to raise your kids, and even which movies and television programs he wants you to watch.
"Dissenters, by contrast, certainly have their own thoughts and ideas about all of the matters that fundamentalists are certain about, but they’re simply less sure that they’re correct. They leave far more room for grace and disagreement. Fundamentalists often interpret this humility as a lack of conviction, at best, or cowardice at worst."
What he misses is the abject fear of hellfire that motivates most fundamentalists--a fear that leaders hold over the heads of the faithful to maintain compliance. Among Catholic fundies, barring people from Communion is the stick that keeps them in line.
Imo, the CCC as it exists now is a Catholic fundamentalist's dream come true. It's all right there in black and white--what's allowed everywhere from your bedroom to your boardroom to your doctor's office to your funeral.
Those of us who believe that God's grace and mercy extend beyond the covers of the CCC or the four walls of the confessional are SOL in the current climate.
PS, the formatting of Katherine's post is messed up on my phone. Might need some adjustments.
DeleteIt’s messed up on my iPad also.
DeleteStill working on the formatting issue.
DeleteMy take on the CCC is that it is a reference work, not the last word on everything, forever and amen. Kind of like the voluminous writings of Augustine and Thomas Aquinas.
Yep, handy reference where you can look up your sins and find out if you should go to Confession quick before you die and go to Hell. That's certainly how it was presented to us. Church Ladies had the vapors about us between first Confession and Easter Vigil. They wanted us to be in the church for that time so we "stayed in a state of grace," i.e., didn't run home and commit a mortal sin of some type.
DeleteLOL, wonder where the church ladies got their theology degree!
DeleteAs far as I can understand it, a mortal sin requires a deliberate desire to rupture one’s relationship with God. It also requires “grave matter, full knowledge, and full consent”. I don’t know that very many Christians, including Catholics, , especially those planning to convert to Catholicism, are often in a state of mortal sin. If one knows God and believes that God is love, they aren’t likely to deliberately want to rupture the relationship. Grave matter is a pretty ambiguous term. Full knowledge and full consent? To committing a “ grave matter” sin also must be rare.
DeleteWhere are specific sins in the CCC? Ve read it on and off over the years but never thought to look for sin lists.
DeleteSome of the things they used to say were mortal sins were not credible (unless you were a scrupulous little kid like I was!). Back in the day eating meat on Friday was one. Ditto missing Mass on Sunday or holy day. And anything to do with sex, even thinking about it! I can laugh about it now but it wasn't funny at the time.
DeleteHee hee. Glad it's a point of hilarity for you. Having your tubes tied because you don't want more miscarriages is a grave sin. You have to take it seriously. Not sorry I had it done despite looking it up first. Priest asked if I considered NFP or living like brother and sister. Some of us just aren't good enough to be Catholic. Didn't see any point in taking it to Confession then or now.
DeleteJean, way different situation of a kid worrying about their Protestant relatives serving them hamburgers on Friday than what you're talking about. No I would not have found that funny at all. People have to follow their conscience,, and sometimes priests don't have a clue.
DeleteJean, getting tubes tied is the most popular form of birth control for women over 35. The pill is most popular before that age. I wanted to get my tubes tied but the dr didn’t want to do it because he suspected I had adhesions from scarring from an operation I had as a child. If I had done it , it never would have even crossed my mind that it would be a sin. I know plenty of devout Catholic women who have had their tubes tied. It’s just another form of birth control. More than 90% of Catholic women use birth control other than NFP during their marriages. I don’t know if they confess to a priest. I didn’t because I don’t think it’s a sin, much less a mortal sin. Of course I gave up on going to confession to a priest sometime in my 30s. Another totally unnecessary ritual for most Catholics ( fine for those who want it, but most don’t) who know that a human being in a Roman collar is not needed to obtain God’s forgiveness and be absolved. God is quite able to handle this without human intervention. For years I “ confessed” to my lifelong close friend from college - the wisest, most spiritual person I’ve ever known. She knew me through and through and could see through anything I tried to hide, giving me the best spiritual guidance I ever experienced in my life. Sadly she has Alzheimer’s now.
DeleteYeah, I don't really care what other people did or how they justified it. As a convert you try to follow the rules. I was not up to trying the approved alternatives proposed for avoiding pregnancy. I did what my doctor recommended because it was foolproof. I learned a lot about my own beliefs in the process and that my Catholicism was pretty shallow when the hard decisions came along. But I still admire the faith in many ways, and try to stay on the edges.
DeleteWhen I was born, a couple of decades before Vatican II, my mother almost died, and was told by the doctor that she should never have another child. My mother never thought that birth control was wrong; she did not want to chance dying in another pregnancy.
DeleteAlthough Mom thought that abortion was wrong, and would never have had an abortion, she also thought state regulation of abortion was wrong. In the time before Roe vs. Wade the Catholic bishops were teaming up with Catholic legislators to make abortion very difficult in Pa.
Mom was just very skeptical of the ability of priests and bishops to know much about women and sexuality. When JP2 was visiting DC (I was living there at that time) I asked her if she wanted to come down to see him. Her response was: "even if he came up to our local parish, she wasn't interested in seeing him. He is just another MAN." MAN pronounced in a way that meant a male of the species with all the faults and limitations typical of such.
Of course, my Polish father was also skeptical of JP2 because he had forbidden priests to become involved in politics: "Do as I say not as I do."
A lot of Catholics including myself went through a phase of being excessively scrupulous about things like eating meat on Friday and going to church on Sunday.
When I hear converts to Catholicism say that they believe in what the Church teaches, I frankly wonder if I could say those words. Like most Catholics my faith is based upon my experience with the liturgy and the faith which I share with my follow Catholics, especially my family and friends.
The clergy, including the lay people who assist them, put entirely too much emphasis upon religious education, and not enough upon love of God, e.g. the liturgy including the Divine Office, and upon love of neighbor. While I have a great love of the study of liturgy, scripture and spirituality, most of religious education found in parishes is completely boring.
The great leader in developing the CCC was Cardinal Law. He delighted in giving copies to people. Did not help him much when it came to hiding sexual abuse. The enormous amount of time put into religious education certainly has not helped many Catholics be better Catholics or even remain Catholics.
Jack, yes, I am skeptical of the "poor catechesis" diagnosis of why people don't remain active Catholics.
DeleteJack - “ When I hear converts to Catholicism say that they believe in what the Church teaches, I frankly wonder if I could say those words.”
DeleteWell, I would not have been able to say them after around age 15. I definitely would not have been able to say that I accepted ALL that the RCC teaches by the time I was 15. I would have left the church at 19 except for the priest (American) who was my theology professor at the Institut Catholique in Paris my junior year . ( I was the poor girl in Paris from my Catholic women’s college, there on full scholarship ) The Catho ( as we called it) in 1967 was a hotbed of Vatican II Theologians, like our professor. All the bright young PhD candidate theologians from multiple countries were there learning from the older Theologians who helped bring about VII. Our other theology professor was from Spain but could speak English. All of our regular courses were in French but the nuns arranged for our theology classes to be in English. I guess they were afraid we wouldn’t understand well enough in French.
After many long conversations in smoke filled cafes drinking wine he convinced me that VII was worth staying Catholic for. And it was.. But then Paul VI came in, caving to the.conservatives on birth control (which he himself apparently said was not an infallible teaching), and even worse, the JPII/Ratzinger/Benedict years.
Maybe it’s easier to ignore the CCC when a cradle Catholic.
The CCC does at least grudgingly admit that primacy of conscience is operative even if what our conscience says is right is something the celibates say is wrong. I studied the birth control teaching in great depth ( Informing my conscience on church teachings as instructed) and by the time my research was done I was so horrified by what I had learned that I dropped out of the church for a Couple of years. That was the first time I left , but not the last.
Back to French: He is trying to square his faith with his rejection of Trump, whom white evangelicals favor by 82 percent.
ReplyDeleteWhile Catholics are somewhat more evenly divided, white Catholics still prefer Trump at rates far above voters overall. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/09/09/white-protestants-and-catholics-support-trump-but-voters-in-other-us-religious-groups-prefer-harris/
The local parish here is heavily MAGA, and religion is used not only to justify a vote for Trump, but to push the idea that there is really no other choice for sincere Catholics. Jesse Romero is a purveyor of this idea, as well as groups like Catholics for Catholics and CatholicVote.
I can think of a couple of older priests, now dead, who would have drawn a clear line between a vote informed by faith vs proclaiming that there is only one party acceptable to God Almighty.
I sense that kind of leadership is no longer there in Christian clergy at all, Catholic or Protestant.
I am reading that Mormon support of Trump is eroding. We think of them as being quite conservative, but in some ways they aren't.
DeleteI'm sorry to hear that your parish is so heavily MAGA. That's difficult. I'm pretty sure there's a lot of MAGA in our parish too , just going by the voter statistics. But they don't talk about it a lot. I'll take that as a win. If they don't throw it in my face I can ignore it.
According to the last poll I looked at, Utah is the Trumpiest state, but I should think that his incessant jabbering about a failing America would be wearing on the generally cheerful and busy Mormons.
DeleteI haven't been to Mass much in the last four years. Very crowded with unvaccinated people who see it as a point of pride to be culture warriors. There are still a few old guard Republicans left who are grudging Trumpers because of abortion, but are uncomfortable with the anti-immigrant rhetoric. We have a fair number of second generation Mexican and Czech/Slovak among the older people who resent it.
The newer people, however, are all in on MAGAs. Lots of rah-rah talk at coffee hour about school vouchers. I suppose that if you have five kids and can get the $9,600 per pupil that Michigan spends on public education to put into home schooling, that seems like a nice little windfall.
Our state keeps going back and forth on tuition tax credits. They've never done vouchers, which would be a non-starter right now with the state's self inflicted budget woes.
DeleteThe big news now is the potential blue dot, Nebraska and Maine are the only states which are not winner-take-all. Of course the MAGAs are having a cow over it. The governor said he would call a special session of the legislature to change it, but he doesn't have the filibuster-proof votes to do it. The blue dot of course is Omaha. The only way that puny lone electoral vote would matter is if the election is That close, which I'm hoping it won't be.
It is interesting that the mostly Republican but officially non-partisan unicameral legislature has tried 16 times since 1991 to go back to winner-take-all but has never mustered the votes to do it. I think the argument of "...so we can be like everybody else" is a non-starter here.
I read about Lindsey Graham being sent to Nebraska to beg for a change in electoral vote apportionment. Trump is like a 7 year old who insists on changing the rules because he's losing at checkers.
DeleteI'd like to see all states apportion votes, frankly, because it would better reflect the popular vote. But changing it just before a national election looks craven.
I feel badly for Senator Mike McDonnell. Very heavy pressure is being brought on him to cave and drag two other senators with him. He was a Democrat until this year and changed parties because the Democrats censured him over being pro-life. Way to go, Democrats. They may have shot themselves in the foot.
DeletePersonally I don't think McDonnell will flip on the electoral vote thing. He is going to be term-limited out and wants to run for mayor of Omaha. He will be running against Republican and incumbent Trump supporter Jean Stothert. If he threw Omaha's Blue Dot under the bus it wouldn't be a good move.
I should have said that Mike McDonnell is a state legislature senator. One of our national Senators, Deb Fisher, is being challenged by Dan Osborn, an Independent. Right now they are neck and neck. He would be likely to caucus with the Democrats.
Delete"Pelvic issues" are not on my radar this cycle. I'm disgusted that Michigan has thrown out its moderate abortion rules, which amounted to informed consent rather than restrictions. And equally disgusted by the hateful b.s. that Michigan Republicans are spreading about LGBTQ people. But we've got much bigger worries than meddling with people's medical decisions and bedroom preferences.
DeleteLooks like Raber is done with our MAGA parish.
DeleteHe's tried to stick it out for a couple of years, and I've tried to be mildly encouraging, but apparently something snapped yesterday. He'll seethe about this for at least a week before he wants to talk about it, but he came home yesterday saying he couldn't continue there. He has been adamant about staying local for the last 25 years, but now wants to start going to a neighboring parish.
Please pray for parishes and congregations that deepen the secular divisions in our nation rather than seek to heal them.
Jean, I'm sorry for you and for Raber. I hope you're both able to find a spiritual home that is welcoming and supportive (and tolerant.)
DeleteThanks! I will pass the kind words on to Raber. Mass at the next town over starts the same time as the Episcopalians, so we can ride together and meet up for coffee and compare notes after. Plus it will be easy to "host" each other occasionally at our respective houses of worship.
DeleteJean, I am sorry that the parish in your town has become so MAGA-fied. I hope Raber will be able to find another place to attend Mass.
DeleteI wonder if it would do any good for him to write a letter to the pastor saying why he is leaving. Probably won't change his mind, but maybe he needs to know that people are being spiritually harmed by the polarization.
You might want to try Saint Cecilia parish in Boston. This was last Sunday's Mass:
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mTjGrAttAc
They had more than 5000 views last Sunday. Since a view is probably equivalent to a family, I suspect that is more than the total number of families in the parish. They have five Masses; I doubt if the church accommodates more than a thousand people.
They have many people from Michigan in their FFF (far-flung flock). Check out the chat at the right of YouTube. Last Sunday was the beginning of their fall religious education. A full house, especially of kids when it came to the dismissal for children's liturgy of the word.
They have an excellent choir. The Sunday before it was twice as large because many of the far-flung flock came for their second annual retreat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx2j43QS3Xs
Obviously, there is a great need out there that is not being served by many of our parishes, especially it seems in Michigan!!!
Maybe Raber can start a group that views Saint Cecilia while being connected on their cell phones or by e-mail rather than using live chat. What a revolutionary thought!
Thanks, Jack. Raber needs live people. He gets seriously depressed watching TV church. He is very sociable. But I might look in. I miss the Dean from Canterbury Cathedral's daily webcast. He is still doing a few, but not since he retired. The Episcopalians have live morning prayer on FB.
DeleteKatherine, I am keeping my trap shut about the local parish where Raber is concerned. If he wants to write letters, it will have to be his idea.
DeleteKatherine, thanks for starting this thread. I have been meaning to do so about the Pope's airplane remarks, but I have been busy with the other segments of my life recently. I just did a wedding this past weekend that should allow me to come up for air.
ReplyDeleteIt shouldn't be news or faith-shaking that non-Christians believe in the same God we do. The 2nd Vatican Council had quite a bit to say about this.
I read Chaput's piece. He says a number of things about Jesus's role in salvation with which I agree. I think he could have been more irenic about it. That he used First Things as the venue for his opinion sort of adds to the meta-message.
DeleteThe part of Chaput's comment that I take issue with (I didn't read his First Things article, I am so done with them over their general cantankerousness!) Was where he said, "Why give up your life for Christ when other paths may get us to the same God?” I don't think he gets it, the martyrs didn't die because other religions don't have a path to God. They gave their lives because they know and love Jesus Christ and would not betray their relationship with him to save themselves
DeleteMaybe someone would like to start a discussion in martyrdom sometime. I found it one of the more interesting aspects of medieval Christianity. We have been talking about St Guthlac in my Old English group and the hermit as martyr.
DeleteJim, was the wedding for one of your kids?
DeleteI haven't had time to read Chaput, but then I don’t think reading anything he says is a particularly good use of time. I very much liked what Francis said about other religions having a path to God. It’s something I came to believe many, many years ago.
DeleteThings are not going well here at home but I’m praying they will Improve. Sometimes I feel desperate, that I can’t keep going. It’s been 366 days of non- stop stress. Since home I’ve enjoyed seeing the trees, the deer, (before chasing them away from eating our few flowers), chipmunks, squirrels and birds. I’ve loved seeing friends and neighbors. There is Very little bird life in San Jose and no other animal life. And no friends and neighbors. But I fear I may not be able to carry this load for long. I absolutely hated living in assisted living and I hated San Jose. But we may have to go back at some point . We still have a lot to do here. But my husband doesn’t seem well and I’m near collapse.
BUT…I Finally saw a toad tonight - the first since I got home. Not on my doorstep but still. I’m praying it’s a good sign somehow.
It’s so sad what has happened in Jean’s parish. From what I read it seems to be a common problem. Too many MAGA priests and pastors attracting MAGA congregations and driving everyone else out of the pews . I’m doubtful that writing to the pastor would help based on what Jean has said about him. Maybe a letter to the bishop?
St Ulphia sent you a toad because she's praying for you. As are we all.
Delete