Choosing between Polish and Esperanto for language learning can depend on various factors including your goals, interests, and the time you are willing to invest. Here are some pros and cons for each language to help you decide:
Polish
Pros:
- Rich Cultural Heritage: Polish is the official language of Poland, a country with a rich history and vibrant culture. Learning Polish can give you access to Polish literature, music, films, and traditions.
- Widely Spoken: With over 40 million native speakers, Polish is one of the most spoken Slavic languages in the world. This can be beneficial for travel, business, and connecting with the Polish diaspora.
- Cognitive Challenge: Polish is known for its complex grammar and pronunciation. Mastering it can be intellectually rewarding and can improve your overall language learning skills.
Cons:
- Difficulty Level: Polish is considered one of the more difficult languages for English speakers to learn due to its complex grammar, cases, and phonetics.
- Limited Global Use: Outside of Poland and Polish communities, the utility of Polish is somewhat limited compared to more globally spoken languages.
Esperanto
Pros:
- Ease of Learning: Esperanto was designed to be an easy-to-learn language with regular grammar, phonetic spelling, and a vocabulary that draws from several European languages. Many learners can achieve basic proficiency relatively quickly.
- International Community: Esperanto has a dedicated global community of speakers who are passionate about the language. There are numerous events, online forums, and opportunities to connect with people worldwide.
- Neutral Language: Esperanto is a constructed language with no ties to any specific country or culture, making it a neutral means of international communication.
Cons:
- Limited Practical Use: Despite its ease of learning, Esperanto has a relatively small number of speakers (estimated around 2 million). It is not used for official purposes and has limited practical application in daily life or business.
- Cultural Depth: As a constructed language, Esperanto lacks the deep cultural and historical roots of natural languages like Polish. Some learners might find this aspect less engaging.
Recommendation
For Enjoyment and Cognitive Challenge: If you enjoy challenging yourself and are interested in Slavic cultures, Polish could be a great choice. It offers the reward of connecting with a rich cultural heritage and a significant number of native speakers.
For Quick Learning and International Community: If you are looking for a more straightforward language learning experience and want to connect with a diverse international community, Esperanto might be the better option. It can also be a stepping stone to learning other languages later.
Ultimately, the choice depends on your personal interests and goals. If cultural immersion and a challenging learning experience excite you, go for Polish. If you prefer an easier entry into language learning and value international connections, Esperanto is the way to go.4o
[David asks ChatGPT] Could you please, as examples, translate your Recommendation in English above into Polish and Esperanto?
Certainly! Here are the translations of the recommendations into Polish and Esperanto:
Polish Translation
Dla przyjemności i wyzwania intelektualnego: Jeśli lubisz stawiać sobie wyzwania i interesujesz się kulturami słowiańskimi, polski może być doskonałym wyborem. Oferuje nagrodę w postaci połączenia z bogatym dziedzictwem kulturowym i znaczną liczbą rodzimych użytkowników języka.
Dla szybkiej nauki i międzynarodowej społeczności: Jeśli szukasz łatwiejszego doświadczenia w nauce języka i chcesz nawiązać kontakt z różnorodną międzynarodową społecznością, esperanto może być lepszą opcją. Może również być kamieniem milowym do nauki innych języków w przyszłości.
Ostatecznie wybór zależy od Twoich osobistych zainteresowań i celów. Jeśli ekscytuje Cię zanurzenie w kulturze i wyzwanie intelektualne, wybierz polski. Jeśli wolisz łatwiejszy początek nauki języka i cenisz międzynarodowe kontakty, esperanto jest właściwym wyborem.
Esperanto Translation
Por Amuziĝo kaj Kognitiva Defio: Se vi ĝuas defii vin kaj interesiĝas pri slavaj kulturoj, la pola povus esti bonega elekto. Ĝi ofertas la rekompencon de konekti kun riĉa kultura heredaĵo kaj signifa nombro da denaskaj parolantoj.
Por Rapida Lernado kaj Internacia Komunumo: Se vi serĉas pli simplan lingvolernan sperton kaj volas konekti kun diversspeca internacia komunumo, esperanto povus esti la pli bona opcio. Ĝi ankaŭ povas esti ŝtupŝtono al lernado de aliaj lingvoj poste.
Finfine, la elekto dependas de viaj personaj interesoj kaj celoj. Se kultura enprofundiĝo kaj intelekta defio ekscitas vin, elektu la polan. Se vi preferas pli facilan enkondukon al lingvolernado kaj taksas internaciajn konektojn, esperanto estas la ĝusta elekto.
I asked the chat bot that's free on my Kindle search engine to give me new ways to hate on the writing of Anne LaMott, and it came up with a somewhat satisfyingly negative review. I learned some things, though:
ReplyDelete1. The bot will simply cull and report in relatively neutral terms the various negative reviews of LaMott's work. There is no intensity or spleen. It was a straightforward and fairly obvious recounting of her thematic and structural weak points. I could not have a "conversation" with the bot in which we bond over our mutual dislike of LaMott's writing. As "enrichment for the elderly," as has been a proposed use of bots, it is a dismal failure.
2. The bot does not get to the deeply personal reasons I dislike LaMott's writings. She's a former addict and writes about this in ways that rub me, the child of addicts, the wrong way. If I were looking for insights about why I have such a negative response to her, I would come up empty. So, as a substitute for a human psychotherapist, as has been suggested, it would be a bust for me.
I do find bots helpful if I am reading long threads on one of my FB groups on decorating or needlework. The bot summarizes 250 comments into a handy paragraph.
And bots are OK at giving you Wikipedia type answers about things you don't know about (like where is West Point, Nebraska, or why was Edgar Aetheling banished to Hungary?)
Bots are also good at organizing info (as per David's example). They are a good tool for research, especially if they give citations.
But they lack thebquirks and charm of human writing, and anybody who likes that is SoL with a bot.
Just curious, I am not real familiar with the writings of Anne LaMott. What is her take on addiction?
DeleteGood question for a chat bot, Katherine! I can't give you an uncorrupted answer. She is a polarizing figure among children of addicts.
DeleteThe main thing I am seeing (I haven't done Chat bot yet, something in me shrinks away from anything AI) but with a regular online search, the only thing that shows up, even 5, 6, 7 pages in, is unrelenting positivity. Even if one is recovered, actions still do have consequences. I'm not really seeing an acknowledgement of that. As they say, stuff rolls downhill. I can imagine that the family, especially children of addicts, still deal with the consequences even after the addict is gone.
DeleteKatherine - As I recall, Jean has a strong revulsion against Anne LaMott because she helped a friend end his life. Apparently she did this because she had promised her father that she would help him - but didn’t when he reached the time that he wanted to let go of this life. Subsequently she felt that she had failed her father. Apparently she offered her help to her friend before he asked for assistance to die and he accepted it, so it was a different situation because in her father’s case, it was her father who initiated the conversation and asked her to help him.
DeleteAnne Lamott has millions of fans because she “speaks” to them about faith and God in terms they can relate to. Her life was a mess. She was a mess. Her parents were addicted and she and her brother suffered greatly because of it. She also used drugs and was an alcoholic. Her conversion story is interesting to the millions whose lives are also a mess, or who have struggled with belief, with faith , with Christianity. One of her closest friends, a man who helped her as a life mentor and a religious guide, is a priest. As a child she loved visiting the home of a Catholic friend.
I was a fan, because of her struggles with belief, with faith. I am happy that she conquered her addictions, raised her son, and seems to have found happiness and contentment with her late in life marriage. I felt conflicted when learning about her role in an assisted suicide. However I also think she has probably helped bring people to God. I have never been an addict. But I also have never, as an adult, had the ( relatively) easy faith of you, Jim and Stanley. It’s been a serious struggle throughout my entire adult life. I think that those who don’t have serious struggles with faith could gain a little understanding of those who do by reading a couple of Lamott’s early books. I am grateful that I have never had to struggle with parents or other close family with addictions. I have lived a normal life, unlike Anne. She had a pretty miserable life for a long time. But her questions, doubts, and struggle for faith did resonate with me. I recommend “Traveling Mercies” and “Grace Eventually” if you would like to read something to see what she is like. I’m guessing that they would be in your public library system. You wouldn’t have to spend money on someone who was involved in assisted suicide if that would create an ethical conflict for you.
It's not so much that she helped a friend with a terminal illness commit suicide but that she offered to do it before her friend even broached the subject. And then she made money writing about the experience and turning herself into the hero. It's all about her. Always.
DeleteSome of the things she writes about addiction also rub me the wrong way. And I wonder how her family feels about her cashing in on their trauma.
Her columns about aging in the Washington Post are basically the madcap adventures of forgetting your keys and having a trick knee but the serenity and wisdom making it all worthwhile. You can get more depth about aging from a greeting card.
But, yah, sure, read her for yourself. She is loved by millions.
Yes, I was not comfortable with the idea that she was the one to suggest assisted suicide to her friend. I have conflicted feelings about medically assisted suicide. I’m not sure that it’s up to others to decide that someone experiencing excruciating pain or likely to experience it should be forced by others to continue to experience it. Personally I think extensive counseling should be done - including family but also with the person in private. Some families are only too happy to be free of caring for a sick, in pain relative. But there are at least some guardrails when the medical establishment is involved and her assistance didn’t include those guardrails. I don’t see assisted suicide as an easy moral and ethical issue and I struggle with my own reactions to it.
DeleteI haven’t read any of her books in recent years. I didn’t even know that she writes for the WaPo. But the two books I cited did help me with my religious struggles many years ago, partly because they aren’t heavy theological tomes or catechisms, but (occasionally humorous) anecdotes about her own very secular upbringing in a totally dysfunctional family and the people and circumstances that converted her to Christianity.
I can understand that you and others don’t like her, but since I didn’t live her life or yours - with addiction - I think others have benefited from her work. It wasn’t just her parents who suffered from addiction but she herself. She may be earning money by writing about her experiences but she’s hardly the first to do so. I’m sorry that you and other family members of addicts are offended by her. But I can’t read her books through the prism of your experiences, only of my own.
Katherine seems to have lived a relatively uncomplicated faith life. I think that those who are fortunate in their faith journées very often don’t understand those of us who struggle mightily and may be worthwhile for them to occasionally read something by someone who struggled and didn’t become a paragon of virtue and faith - a saint - after conversion. Just my own opinion.
No judgments. If she speaks to your religious experiences, great. I am very different in experience, circumstance, and temperament from all of you here. Apologies to David for using LaMott as an example in this thread because it derailed his topic.
DeleteI think all of us who comment here are different from one another in multiple ways - all of those you mention and a few more besides. That is why I enjoy the discussions here. Nobody is a clone of anyone else and I learn a lot from each of you. It helps me see through prisms other than my own.
DeleteI am always open to reading books by someone who has a different faith perspective, or who arrived at it differently than I did, as long as they are respectful of others, and don't annoy me too much. Fundamentalist tracts and militant atheists probably fall into the annoying category.
DeleteI suppose that I could get by without learning Polish if I used an AI app. But that would mean I'm not building internal mind space. It's worth the effort to recapitulate the minds of my ancestors. My parents were totally bilingual. Read, wrote and spoke English and Polish without accents in either language. I'll never get there but worth the effort.
DeleteThe main problem with learning Polish (as it is written) is that the phonics make no sense to an English speaker. Our parish was the Polish parish in town in the old days. I am a newcomer, have only been here 29 years, and I don't have a drop of Polish blood. But I have learned some Polish Christmas carols for choir. Some long-ago nun wrote out cheat sheets with the words spelled out phonetically (for English speakers), which makes it a lot easier.
ReplyDeleteThere is barely anyone left here who still is fluent in Polish. But there is another hymn that is used a lot for funerals, Serdeczna Matko. Which puzzled me, because the English version is an advent hymn, Stainless the Maiden. The words start out, "Stainless the maiden, that we call our mother; nine months she waited, bearing Christ our brother..." which didn't seem appropriate for a funeral. Turns out the Polish words are different for the funeral hymn:
"Beloved Mother, guardian of the nation,
Hear orphans weeping in their supplication.
We are Eve's exiles, do you hear us praying?..."
At least Polish doesn't use the Cyrillic alphabet, which really would be confusing!
DeleteOne of the criticisms of Esperanto is that it is Latin-driven. So speakers of most Western languages would find the grammars and structure easy. But speakers of Asian languages would find it quite a bit harder.
ReplyDeleteAchieving world peace through a common lingua franca has largely been debunked. Latin and English have functioned as common languages spoken by much of the world. World peace did not ensue, but it did allow for Rome and England (and later the U.S.) to establish an outsize sphere of influence on large parts of the world.
I think the French would argue that their language had an outsize influence on Western culture. And, of course, through its influence on English after 1066.
There now. That's some damn fine useless info your bot didn't tell ya!
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Delete“I think the French would argue that their language had an outsize influence on Western culture. And, of course, through its influence on English after 1066.”
DeleteWell, for a long time French was the language of diplomacy, and of the “ well educated”. It may have given way to English as the lingua Franca these days, but it is one of the two official languages of the Olympics (if the host country’s language is not one of those, then there are three official languages) and other international sports competitions.
Languages are a deeply embedded cultural marker. So the Welsh and Irish revived their own languages. A Polish language instructor I knew in DC noted that the language was the one thing their many conquerors never were able to take away from them. My son’s mother in law was required to learn Russian growing up but she never spoke Russian outside of class. The cultural tie is the reason Stanley is studying Polish. The French, of course, have government offices to make sure that French isn’t too corrupted by English and computerese.
ReplyDeleteThe older deacon of our parish (he passed away at the age of 93) was a Polish speaker. He told us that Polish was close enough to Russian that one could understand words here and there, but that most Poles would not admit that they could understand any Russian. I guess there was bad blood even pre dating the Soviet era; most of the Polish families here had come over in the late 1800s.
DeleteWe had a Czech parish north of us. They have a priest from Africa, so I doubt they do the Mass in Czech any more.
DeleteMy mother's parents came from two little dinky rural towns in NE Poland in the general vicinity of Bialystok, Poryte (Paw-rih-teh) and Slucz (swooch). Sort of like Possum Shit, Poland.
DeleteThey were definitely in the Russian zone following the partition. My grandmother spoke Russian. I think it was easier to be a Pole there than to be a Russian peasant in the Russian homeland. In the Prussian and then German area, Poles had the Kulturkampf to deal with. Crush the Polish language and the Catholic faith. The Poles in the Austrian sector had it easier culturally, I'm not sure economically. The driver who drove me to Czestochowa told me his attitude about the Russians. He considered them too compliant. The Poles had Solidarnosc and it was popular and a resistance movement. I think there may have been a little more distribution of power in the CCCP following Stalin's death. Stalin was a Tzar. Now, so is Putin. It's cultural to a great extent. Lots of similarity between the Poles and Russians in language. Substantial difference in political culture and religion. Poland is really a western country. They bristle at being called East European.
A question that interests me is how different was reconsituted Poland from the original. I understand that there were a lot of military conflicts related to regaining former territory from Ukrainians and others which generated bad blood. Also, I think there were two main factions involved in the reestablishment of Poland, one which was politically anti-Semitic. Jews had acted in the original Poland as middle management for the nobility. That could be a root for some of those feelings.
Stanley, I once found a fascinating interactive map of Poland’s boundaries over the few hundred years preceding the current century. It was fascinating. You might be able to find it with a google search. But at some periods of history, Poland and several other 20th century nations were rolled up into Prussia.
DeleteI discovered that when my paternal German great grandparents immigrated to the US from Prussia (US census gave that as their country of origin) that the town they lived in is now part of Poland, close to the border with Germany. The town was divided fairly equally between Germans and Slavs, with some speaking German and some speaking Polish.
Anne, borders were pretty stable for centuries under the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. There was some military adventurism against Sweden when the Sejm elected a German noble as king. This cost them dearly as the teenage Swedish king turned out not to be a pushover and quite competent. Eventually, just as they established the first monarchical constitution in Europe, Poland was absorbed. Thanks for the map info. I'll try to find it. I will probably get a paper copy of "Poland: The First Thousand Years" because searching an Audible book is too difficult.
DeleteStanley, have you ever read the James Michener book Poland? It is what I would call historical fiction. But he always did his research and spent time in the locations he wrote about.
DeleteMy brother joked that before Michener's books got into the story, they had to go back to the late Pleistocene.
DeleteKatherine, yes, I have the book but haven't read it yet. Back in the seventies, the bishop of the Philadelphia Diocese was Cardinal Krol of Polish lineage. He was a close friend of Michener who lived in Bucks County, I believe.
DeleteYes, I am obsessed with ChatGPT.
ReplyDeleteBelow is a passage that, were it in English, almost everyone would recognize. However, I have had ChatGPT translate it into five different languages, and I have mixed up the labels. Can you identify the languages and the passage? I personally would not have the vaguest idea, although I might guess two correctly.
Swahili:
vvإنها حقيقة معترف بها عالميًا، أن الرجل الواحد الذي يمتلك ثروة كبيرة، يجب أن يكون في حاجة إلى زوجة. ومع ذلك، فإن القليل المعروف عن مشاعر أو آراء مثل هذا الرجل عند دخوله لأول مرة إلى حي، فإن هذه الحقيقة مثبتة بقوة في أذهان العائلات المحيطة به لدرجة أنه يُعتبر ملكًا قانونيًا لإحدى بناتهم.
Khmer:
Það er alkunna staðreynd að einn maður í eigu góðra gæða, hlýtur að vilja eiginkonu. Þó lítið sé vitað um tilfinningar eða skoðanir slíks manns þegar hann kemur fyrst inn í hverfi, er þessi sannleikur svo fastur í hugum fjölskyldna í kring að hann er talinn réttmætt eign einhvers eða annarrar af dætrum þeirra.
Swahili
Det er en sannhet universelt anerkjent, at en enslig mann i besittelse av en god formue, må være på jakt etter en kone. Uansett hvor lite kjent følelsene eller synspunktene til en slik mann måtte være ved første inngang i et nabolag, er denne sannheten så godt forankret i hodene til de omkringliggende familiene at han blir ansett som den rettmessige eiendommen til en eller annen av døtrene deres.
Arabic:
វាជាការពិតដែលទទួលស្គាល់ជាសកលថា បុរសដែលមានទ្រព្យសម្បត្ដិល្អ មិនអាចខ្វះភរិយាបានទេ។ ទោះបីជាមានការយល់ដឹងតិចតួចអំពីអារម្មណ៍ឬទស្សនៈរបស់បុរសដូច្នេះ នៅពេលដែលគាត់បញ្ចូលទៅក្នុងទឹកដីជាលើកដំបូង ក៏ការពិតនេះបានតាំងជាផ្លាស់ប្តូរយ៉ាងដាច់ខាតក្នុងគំនិតនៃគ្រួសារដែលនៅជុំវិញគាត់ ដូច្នេះគាត់ត្រូវបានចាត់ទុកថាជាទ្រព្យសម្បត្ដិគ្រប់គ្រាន់របស់កូនស្រីរបស់ពួកគេ។
Norwegian:
Ni ukweli unaotambulika ulimwenguni kote, kwamba mwanaume mmoja mwenye utajiri mzuri, lazima awe anatamani kuwa na mke. Hata hivyo, ingawa hisia au maoni ya mwanaume huyo yanaweza kujulikana kidogo sana anapoingia kwenye ujirani kwa mara ya kwanza, ukweli huu umejikita sana katika mawazo ya familia zinazomzunguka kiasi kwamba anachukuliwa kuwa mali halali ya mmoja wa binti zao.
I see I have included Swahili twice. One of them should be Icelandic.
DeleteLOL, I thought the Norwegian and Swahili got switched around . I recognized the extra vowels æ, ø, and å, which Norwegian shares with Danish (I assume Icelandic too? It is basically Old Norse) My dad told me how they were pronounced, but I didn't get the hang of it. I have no idea what the passage says.
DeleteI think I got them all. Curious about how well the translator works. I had a funny exchange with another cancer patient in Germany. Both of us had enough reading knowledge of each other's language to limp along, so she would post in German, and I would answer in English and vice versa.
DeleteIn the olden days, graduate students in medieval studies were required to take crash courses in reading "church Latin" to decipher manuscripts, and in French or German to keep up with the international scholarship. Those skills still come in handy!
The paragraphs, from top down, are Arabic, Icelandic, Norwegian, Khmer, and Swahili. Here's a Khmer to English translation using Google Translate:
DeleteIt is a universally accepted fact that a well-to-do man cannot lack a wife. Although there was little understanding of the man's feelings or views, so when he first entered the realm, this fact changed drastically in the minds of the families around him, so he was considered wealthy enough. Of their daughters.
Here's a translation of the Norwegian:
It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in search of a wife. However little known the sentiments or views of such a man may be on his first entrance into a neighborhood, this truth is so well established in the minds of the surrounding families that he is considered the rightful property of one or other of their daughters.
Thé Norwegian translation sounds like something from a Jane Austen novel.
DeleteI took a crash course in “German for Reading Comprehension” for my job long ago at the World Bank. Most of the students were grad students. We didn’t learn how to pronounce the German, only to translate it to English in writing.
DeleteI took four years of Latin in high school. It was useful in learning to read German because of the similar sentence construction and use of declensions in both.
There's a reason the Norwegian translation sounds like something from a Jane Austen novel. It is the opening of Pride and Prejudice. I think it is amazingly close to the original, especially that the translation into Norwegian was done by ChatGPT but the translation back into English was done by Google.
DeleteBeautiful Icelandic hymn:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/800-year-old-icelandic-hymn-train-station/
Lyrics date to the 1200s, musical composition is more recent.