In a meeting with Portuguese Jesuits earlier this month, Francis went much farther than "Who am I to judge?", stating plainly that gay people, including those who are not living celibate lives, should be welcome in the church.
Christopher White's article in NCR emphasizes Francis's defiance of his critics in the US. But White may have buried the lede. About halfway through his article, White quotes Francis talking specifically about LGBTQ people in the church:
During his time in Portugal for World Youth Day — a major festival of Catholic young people that takes place every few years in a different city around the globe — the pope repeatedly preached a message that everyone has a home in the Catholic Church.
When asked by a Jesuit who works with university students how this applies to gay students who are not living celibately, but are still active in the church, the pope did not demur.
"The door is open to everyone, everyone has their own space in the church," said Francis. "How will each person live it? We help people live so that they can occupy that place with maturity, and this applies to all kinds of people."
"What I don't like at all, in general, is that we look at the so-called 'sin of the flesh' with a magnifying glass," said Francis. "If you exploited workers, if you lied or cheated, it didn't matter, and instead relevant were the sins below the waist."
"We must not be superficial and naive, forcing people into things and behaviors for which they are not yet mature, or are not capable," Francis said. "To accompany people spiritually and pastorally takes a lot of sensitivity and creativity."
The pope went on to recount his numerous meetings with transgender people, whom he said felt rejected by the church.
"Everyone, everyone, everyone, are called to live in the church," he told the Jesuits. "Never forget that."
White also has Francis speaking sharply about his critics, especially those in the US, whom he categorizes as "indietrists", which White translates as "backwardists". The Holy Father offered a stout defense of doctrine as something that is not static but develops over time:
"Today it is a sin to possess atomic bombs; the death penalty is a sin, it cannot can be practiced, and it was not so before," he said. "As for slavery, some pontiffs before me have tolerated it, but things are different today."
Francis went on to point to the writings of the fifth century monk, Vincent of Lérins, who taught that doctrine "may be consolidated by years, expanded by time, exalted by age."
"Change develops from the root upward, growing with these three criteria," the pope told the Jesuits, noting that Lérins knew that the understanding of the human person is deepened with the passage of time.
"The other sciences and their evolution also help the church in this growth in understanding," Francis said. "The view of church doctrine as a monolith is wrong."
White's article doesn't name any recent incidents or events which may have provoked Francis's criticism of Americans. Perhaps he has in mind the various instances of bishops forbidding gay teachers and other church employees from exercising their ministries when they enter into same sex marriages. These words from Francis seem likely to embolden those who support these ministers who have lost their jobs in the church.
I am again confused. Advocates (such as Fr. James Martin) for greater acceptance of LGBTQ individuals in the Catholic Church make it clear that they accept all existing Church teachings about sexuality. Pope Francis has made it clear that any sex outside of marriage is sinful. Recently Francis said, "Being homosexual is not a crime. It's not a crime. Yes, but it's a sin. Fine, but first let's distinguish between a sin and a crime." That covers the LGB part of LGBTQ. As for the T[ransgender] part, Francis has said, “Gender ideology, today, is one of the most dangerous ideological colonizations. Why is it dangerous? Because it blurs differences and the value of men and women."
ReplyDeleteSo what doctrine is in the process of change? Is there some new teaching about sexuality just around the corner? I just don't see it. It is certainly a good thing to preach that everyone is welcome in the Church. But as I understand it, that has been true (though rarely practiced) since Jesus ate with sinners and tax collectors. So, again, what doctrinal changes can we expect?
I don't think doctrinal changes, in the present or future, are the point. As you said, welcome to all has rarely been practiced. Maybe the pope's message is that we ought to start practicing it.
DeleteHe does think gender ideology is dangerous. But I know he has met and talked with trans people and extended the welcome mat to them as well. He differentiates ideology from people. It's a "glass half full" type of thing. But that does seem better than "glass smashed on the floor and swept out the door".
Katherine, it seems to me that Jim's comments leave a strong impression that there is some looming change to doctrine. In a post titled "Pope Francis: LGBTQ persons are welcome in the church," he discusses at some length the pope's offering "a stout defense of doctrine as something that is not static but develops over time." I am just trying to determine what doctrines (if any) are allegedly "developing."
DeleteIf it is a sin to possess atomic bombs, who exactly is guilty of that sin? I certainly don't want the United States to unilaterally disarm.
I think the existence and possession of atomic bombs is like having a tiger by the tail. It's an unhealthy situation but you can't let go of the tail. I guess MAD has worked since WWII but there's more wacky actors out there now. It seems like use of the weapons would be a lot worse sin than possessing them.
DeleteUnilateral nuclear disarmament? There is not even a serious commitment to even SEEK multilateral nuclear disarmament at this time. The US will spend over $600B over the next 10 years upgrading the nuclear arsenal. Meanwhile, no one even questions this horrible status quo. That is pretty sinful or at least stupid. I don't believe climate change will make the human species extinct. But, with the ensuing competition for resources AND availability of nuclear weapons, yes, extinction is possible. I'd say the Pope has a more logical prioritization than the major world leaders or the general public.
DeleteDavid - I agree it's not entirely clear what doctrines are developing in this case. Francis is proposing a pastoral approach (gays should be welcome in the church). The article also has him insisting that doctrine develops.
DeleteI believe one of the keys to his thought is the maxim, "Reality is greater than ideas". I think his approach is to deal pastorally with the reality of people's lives. If the people don't conform to doctrinal ideas, I don't think he loses much sleep over it.
The author notes that Francis has a reputation of being particularly candid when talking to his fellow Jesuits. The reason for that is that Jesuits practice manifestation of conscience to their superiors. They are supposed to express all their doubts and concerns in complete honesty. That tends to evoke a response of complete honesty on the part of the superior.
ReplyDeleteIn this case the Pope was completely honest in telling the Jesuits what they ought to think of the reactionary, backward looking responses to LGBTQ+ issues in the U.S. A. Don’t be concerned about their criticism that doctrine cannot change, because it has, and can. Stay focused on finding a place for these people in the Church.
Of course, the issues he chose (war, atomic weapons, death penalty, and slavery) are all issues that once were not consider sinful but now are. An issue which has gone the other way is usury. Charging interest was considered sinful. However, we have evolved modern banking practices in which reasonable interest is not considered useful rather than sinful.
Could sexual sinfulness be one of those areas of morally in which Christian society has evolved? Andrew Greeley argued the sexual revolution was overstated. What happened is that we have adopted a norm of sex within committed monogamous relationships rather than only the classical marriage for life. We allow monogamous premarital sex for persons contemplating marriage, for those divorced finding a new marriage partner, and more recently for persons of the same sex seeking lasting monogamous relationships. Church teaching has simply not caught up with Christian morality as practiced by the faithful. Remember that Francis has said that he believes Christians do have a good sense of where the Spirit is leading the Church.
Pastorally that means that we have to acknowledge the primacy of conscience of the people whose morality has evolved. Under Pope Francis our annulment process has been changed to adapt to the reality of many failed church weddings. We have not yet found ecclesial ways to accompany people in premarital relationships. Our unmarried are increasingly at the mercy of apps as a way to find a sexual partner.
It is interesting that the church has evolved a whole series of steps to the priesthood (minor orders then marriage orders). Maybe we need something similar in regard to levels of sexual intimacy? Anyway, it is particularly clear that church thinking and structures have not been very helpful in guiding contemporary Christians in their sexual behavior.
However, we have evolved modern banking practices in which reasonable interest is not considered useful rather than sinful.
DeleteShould have been
However, we have evolved modern banking practices in which reasonable interest is NOW considered useful rather than sinful
"White's article doesn't name any recent incidents or events which may have provoked Francis's criticism of Americans." I don't keep up with European and British news too much, but I'm not aware of stories there similar to the ones which pop up seemingly every day in our news cycle about treatment of LGBT+ by Christians and Catholics. Such as the one which I read yesterday about the Catholic school in Kansas which "disenrolled" a sixth grader, not because of any problems with the student, but because his parents wouldn't sign the required pledge about supporting all Catholic teachings of morality. As far as I know the parents were a straight couple married in the church. Apparently there was a new pastor who came in like gangbusters and required this pledge and tossed a bunch of books out of the school library which he disapproved of.
ReplyDeleteNot to mention the story (being made into a documentary by Ronan Farrell) about the girl in Denver who committed suicide after attempts at conversion therapy by a priest and some nuns.
I don't know if that stuff happens more in America, or if it just gets in the news more. But the pope is surely aware that we have problems here.
From article:
Delete"In responding to a question from a Portuguese Jesuit who said he had spent last year in the United States — where he often witnessed criticisms of Francis' leadership of the church, including by American bishops"
I don't think Francis cares much about what happens in the media, he was responding to a particular Jesuit's experience in his ministry. If Francis had been given the same question from a member of the media, he might have responded very differently. He might have avoided becoming involved in cultural war issues.
Gender ideology is a different question from sexual behavior.
ReplyDeleteGender ideology, i.e., the theory that gender is completely malleable, is being promoted by an elite cultural minority who disregard the evidence that gender has strong biological and cultural components. It is not the case that an individual can completely sweep away their biological and cultural background at will and emerge as the person they want to be, except in some media promotions.
I find gender ideology a left-wing analogy to right wing nationalism. Both are media ideologies that prey on the insecurities of people. Those insecurities are grounded in real life; the people who experience them need to be supported. The media propagators of distorted ideological solutions need to be criticized.
As far as I can tell, the pope generally talks about gay people and not LGBTQ people. I think most would agree that gay men and lesbians are LGBTQ, but LGBTQ stands for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and queer. So it is misleading for news reports to broaden the pope's comments about gay men and lesbians to include transexuals and others.
DeleteI don't think Francis used the term LGBTQ. I did in the post. I'll update it.
DeleteI think his statement that everyone has a place in the church applies to everyone, not just to LGB persons.
DeleteThe quote was, "Everyone, everyone, everyone, are called to live in the church. Never forget that." It seems to me that "are called to live" has a somewhat different meaning than "has a place." There are certainly behaviors that put one outside the Church. Having a place within the Church may require one to give up those behaviors. It appears that being divorced and remarried now doesn't place one outside the Church. Perhaps the same is becoming true of people in same-sex relationships or people who are transgender. I am not sure. But certainly when the Church labels a particular behavior as sinful, that means people are not supposed to do it.
DeleteGerard O'Connell's report in America magazine has a fuller account with a bit more of what Francis said:
Delete"Pope encourages ministry to homosexual and transgender people
"Another Portuguese Jesuit called João, who works in the university center in Coimbra, recalled that Francis had told young people at World Youth Day in Lisbon that “we are all called as we are, and that there is room for everyone in the Church.” He told the pope that he does pastoral work with university students, and “among them are many really good ones, very committed to the Church, to the center, very friendly with the Jesuits, who identify as homosexuals.” He said they are “an active part of the Church, but they often do not see in doctrine their way of living affectivity, and they do not see the call to chastity as a personal call to celibacy, but rather as an imposition.”
"He asked the pope:
""Since they are virtuous in other areas of their lives, and know the doctrine, can we say that they are all in error, because they do not feel, in conscience, that their relationships are sinful? And how can we act pastorally so that these people feel, in their way of life, called by God to a healthy affective life that produces fruit? Should we recognize that their relationships can open up and give seeds of true Christian love, such as the good they can accomplish, the response they can give to the Lord?"
"Pope Francis said, “I believe there is no discussion about the call being addressed to everyone. Jesus is very clear about this: everyone. The invited guests did not want to come to the banquet. So he sent out to the streets to call in everyone, everyone, everyone. So that it remains clear, Jesus says ‘healthy and sick,’ ‘righteous and sinners,’ everyone, everyone, everyone,” he said, echoing the chant he led at World Youth Day. “In other words, the door is open to everyone, everyone has their own space in the Church. How will each person live it out? We help people live so that they can occupy that place with maturity, and this applies to all kinds of people.”
"The pope then mentioned a priest he knows in Rome:
"I know a priest who works with young homosexuals. It is clear that today the issue of homosexuality is very strong, and the sensitivity in this regard changes according to historical circumstances. But what I don’t like at all, in general, is that we look at the so-called ‘sin of the flesh’ with a magnifying glass, just as we have done for so long for the sixth commandment. If you exploited workers, if you lied or cheated, it didn’t matter, and instead sins below the waist were relevant.
"Pope Francis repeated: “So, everyone is invited. This is the point. And the most appropriate pastoral attitude for each person must be applied. We must not be superficial and naive, forcing people into things and behaviors for which they are not yet mature, or are not capable.” He said, “It takes a lot of sensitivity and creativity to accompany people spiritually and pastorally. But everyone, everyone, everyone is called to live in the Church: never forget that.”
"In his answer, Francis also went on to speak about transgender people. He recalled that a Charles de Foucauld sister, Sister Geneviève, who is in her 80s and is a chaplain for circus performers in Rome with two other sisters, attends the Wednesday general audiences. He said Sister Geneviève “also works a lot with people who are transgender” and one day she asked him, “Can I bring them to the audience?” Francis responded, “Sure! Why not?” and so, he said, “groups of trans [people] come all the time. The first time they came, they were crying. I was asking them why. One of them told me, ‘I didn’t think the pope would receive me!’ Then, after the first surprise, they made a habit of coming. Some write to me, and I email them back. Everyone is invited! I realized that these people feel rejected, and it is really hard.”"
Church government and the papacy are evolving. The declaration of infallibility of Vatican I was only one step in the long evolution of the papacy toward more centralized government in the Western Church; that evolution tended to reduce the role of bishops to branch managers.
ReplyDeleteVatican II was another step. It affirmed that the church is founded on the universal call to holiness given in baptism. It recognized the primacy of the individual conscience. It affirmed that bishops constitute a college with the Pope as its head, and that priests in a diocese also constitute a college with the bishop as its head. All of that set in motion the possibility of reviving synodal government in which Pope and bishops govern together, and priests and bishops govern together with roles for laity just as important as historically been the roles of rulers, theologians, and monastics.
In recent decades speeches of popes have been carefully prepared and vetted as if the pope was always exercising his full teaching authority. While Pope, Benedict wrote a life of Christ. He made it clear that this was the work of private person and not an exercise of his papal authority. His resignation as pope helped to further separate the person from the office. Francis's conversations off the cuff with reporters have further separated the person from the office. His conversations with his fellow Jesuits are clearly models of “walking together” a candid exchange of thinking and experience. They are fall removed from a papal encyclical or the decrees of an Ecumenical Council. We should not ask of them more than they are. However, they do give us some idea of Pope Francis thinking on issues will be before the Synod which might contribute toward the evolution of doctrine.
They are FAR removed from a papal encyclical
DeleteUnfortunately, even this hint of possible evolution of teaching will make some right wing bishops absolutely pitch an embolism.
DeleteThis is the complete English text as published in La Civilta Cattolica
ReplyDeletehttps://www.laciviltacattolica.com/the-water-has-been-agitated/
This is the part on transgender:
"I take a cue from your question and want to add something else that concerns transgender people. The Wednesday general audiences are attended by a Charles de Foucauld sister, Sister Geneviève, who is in her eighties and is a chaplain at the Circus in Rome with two other sisters. They live in a mobile home next to the Circus. One day I went to visit them. They have a little chapel, a kitchen, sleeping area, everything well organized. And that nun also works a lot with people who are transgender. One day she said, “Can I bring them to the audience?” “Sure!” I answered her, “why not?” And groups of trans come all the time. The first time they came, they were crying. I was asking them why. One of them told me, “I didn’t think the pope would receive me!” Then, after the first surprise, they made a habit of coming. Some write to me, and I email them back. Everyone is invited! I realized that these people feel rejected, and it is really hard."
A gem of a quote from his grandmother in the context of being worldly:
ReplyDeleteI am not afraid of sexualized society. No, I am afraid of how we relate to it. I am afraid of worldly criteria. I prefer to use the term “worldly,” rather than “sexualized,” because the term encompasses everything, for example, the eagerness to promote oneself, the eagerness to stand out or, as we say in Argentina, to “climb.” Remember that those who climb end up hurting themselves!
My grandmother, who was a wise old woman, told us one day, “In life you have to progress, buy land, bricks, a house…” Clear words, they came from the experience of an immigrant. Dad was an immigrant, too. “But don’t confuse progressing,” Grandma added, “with climbing. In fact, he who climbs goes up, up, up, and instead of having a house, setting up a business, working or getting a position, when he is at the top the only thing he shows is his butt.” This is wisdom.
Asking for prayers. My cousin Joan's daughter Linda, my goddaughter, 57, died today from cardiac arrest, no warning. Linda beat leukemia a few years back. She had three boys by three guys, but she loved them and raised them. One is still in HS. Everyone is in shock. My relatives are in the Miami area. I will probably fly down after the hurricane passes.
ReplyDeleteSending prayers for them, will remember them at Mass this evening.
DeleteSo sorry, Stanley. I will pray for her this evening in my evening prayer.
DeleteProyers ascending, Stanley. Such a sad thing, especially after beating leukemia.
DeleteOur prayers are with you.
DeleteJack - thanks for the quotes from Francis’s grandmother. Don’t confuse progressing with climbing. Wonderful !
ReplyDeleteI agree with the NY Times that the big story out of this interview is the Pope's criticism of his opponents in the United States.
ReplyDelete"You have seen that in the United States the situation is not easy: there is a very strong reactionary attitude. It is organized and shapes the way people belong, even emotionally. I would like to remind those people that indietrismo (being backward-looking) is useless and we need to understand that there is an appropriate evolution in the understanding of matters of faith and morals as long as we follow the three criteria that Vincent of Lérins already indicated in the fifth century: doctrine evolves ut annis consolidetur, dilatetur tempore, sublimetur aetate. In other words, doctrine also progresses, expands and consolidates with time and becomes firmer, but is always progressing. Change develops from the roots upward, growing in accord with these three criteria."
Pope then gives some examples of change, atomic weapons, death penalty.
"But some people opt out; they go backward; they are what I call “indietristi.” When you go backward, you form something closed, disconnected from the roots of the Church and you lose the sap of revelation. If you don’t change upward, you go backward, and then you take on criteria for change other than those our faith gives for growth and change. And the effects on morality are devastating. The problems that moralists have to examine today are very serious, and to deal with them they have to take the risk of making changes, but in the direction I was saying.
You have been to the United States and you say you have felt a climate of closure. Yes, this climate can be experienced in some situations. And there you can lose the true tradition and turn to ideologies for support. In other words, ideology replaces faith, membership of a sector of the Church replaces membership of the Church."
Those last two sentences are extremely powerful.