The retreat was the first silent one I have ever attended. It was also the simplest one I have ever experienced. In some ways the silence was something I had to adjust to, but that part was surprisingly easy.
There were three conferences, and the rest were sessions of practicing contemplative prayer. It can basically be summed up in this quote from The Cloud of Unknowing: "Lift up your heart to the Lord with a gentle stirring of love, desiring him for his own sake and not for his gifts."The readings for the conferences were from Christian and Catholic mystics such as Sts. Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross, Ignatius of Loyola, as well as some saints and spiritual writers that I wasn't familiar with.
There were some elements of eastern spirituality incorporated, such as breathing and body position, and the use of a chosen word to focus. The purpose of these was to quiet the mind and body, in order to focus one's spirit.
It was a good experience, and I was glad that I went. It was a good way to start Lent. This wasn't my first experience with contemplative prayer.
I have known the Benedictine priest who presented the retreat for a long time. He is from Germany, as are many of the monks, though he has been in the US for many years.
There seems to be some controversy in conservative church circles surrounding the subject of this kind of prayer, that it isn't authentically Christian or Catholic, and perhaps opens oneself to the occult. Which seems ignorant, since the focus is God. I think it should be judged by its fruit. If what one takes away from it is peace and joy, it seems like the concerns are misplaced. I think part of the problem is that some people have memories from the 1960s and '70s of hippy-era transcendental meditation, in which the focus is not on God.
Now some information about the art piece, the Misereor Lenten Veil, titled "Hope for the Marginalized". The retreat center is actually filled with art. Since these Benedictines are a missionary order, much of it is from the areas where they have served. Misereor is the German Catholic Bishops' Organization for Development and Cooperation. The word "misereor" is translated as "compassion".
The image in the center is of the Suffering Servant, and on either side are depictions from the Bible brought into relation with the present-day world. The main message of the Lenten Veil is "Hope for the marginalized". The pamphlet had this to say, "Only a Church which accepts the challenge of God's partiality will remember his love in solidarity with the poor and the weak..."
The point of prayer has always been to open us to the occult, which simply means that which we do not see, that which is hidden in the mortal world, to open our vistas. And Catholics have always used words and certain positions to aid in prayer. As in Seamus Heaney's poem, "St Kevin in the Blackbird":
ReplyDeleteAnd then there was St Kevin and the blackbird.
The saint is kneeling, arms stretched out, inside
His cell, but the cell is narrow, so
One turned-up palm is out the window, stiff
As a crossbeam, when a blackbird lands
And lays in it and settles down to nest.
Kevin feels the warm eggs, the small breast, the tucked
Neat head and claws and, finding himself linked
Into the network of eternal life,
Is moved to pity: now he must hold his hand
Like a branch out in the sun and rain for weeks
Until the young are hatched and fledged and flown.
I love this. I hadn’t known the story of St. Kevin and the Blackbird. I’ve never taken much interest in the stories of the saints, especially not years ago, when we named our sons. One of our sons is named Kevin. He is not a saint, but like the saint whose name he bears, he is kind.
DeletePeople don't really know how to deal with saint stories anymore. Hagiography is not biography or history, so we just reject it as Church p.r. or outright lies at worst or allegorical fantasy at best.
DeleteI often think it would make more sense if we prefaced all these stories with something like: "Centuries ago the people of Wherever loved St Whosits so much that they told this story about him long after he died ..."
Hagiography would also benefit from some kind of references to the Scriptural stories they're connected with: "And just as Jesus did/said Whatever, people believed St Whosits did/said Similar and thereby brought them closer to God's love."
I like that poem by Seamus Heaney. I think it is helpful to think of those types of stories as poetry rather than biography.
DeleteThat's a good observation about hagiography as poetry.
DeleteJean - I love the St. Kevin story, too. Please share as much hagiography as you feel like.
DeleteWe have been having some interesting discussions in my Old English group about Ss Cuthbert and Guthlac, arguably the most beloved saints of the period. St Cuthbert's remains survived the Danish invasions, the Conquest, and the unholy Dissolution. He was reburied in a new coffin in the 1800s in Durham Cathedral. Other partial skeletons were found in his coffin at that time, possibly those of Bede, perhaps relics of other saints, possibly put there to protect them from Henry VIII's goon squad.
DeleteAlso, happy St David (Dewi) Day. Patron saint of Wales. Gotta get out my Welsh rarebit and leeks. Some wag once said that you had to wonder how hard a nation was really trying for greatness when their national dish was onions and a cheese sandwich. Here's Bryn Terfel pounding out the national anthem. https://youtu.be/OIimghCi7jc
DeleteGlad you had this opportunity, Katherine. I did this years ago at the Abbey of the Genesee. I'd like to repeat it.
ReplyDeleteRetreats away can be very valuable and come in a variety of forms:
ReplyDeleteI had a very fine personal retreat in my forties with a woman religious who mainly give retreats to clergy and religious. She accepted me only because I had been a Jesuit novice. She only had a two or three people at a time mostly women religious.
About a decade or two ago, I had a daily commute retreat at a local retreat center with Gregory Norbet of Weston Priory fame. He handed out lyric sheets and we sang his songs.
Before the pandemic the women of our parish regularly did a group overnight retreat at the local Jesuit retreat center. They found it very valuable to get away both from their homes and the parish. The pastor came for the concluding Mass.
Katherine, do you remember the names of any of the less famous spiritual writers whose work you were exposed to during your retreat?
ReplyDeleteSome of the less familiar ones were Meister Eckhart, Evagrius Ponticus, and Bede Griffith. I actually had heard of these people, but hadn't explored any further. What we got at the retreat were some short quotes and reflections from them, nothing like a college lecture, because that wasn't the purpose of being there. We did get a bibliography print out.
DeleteKatherine, from your description it sounds as if you were taught the basics of Centering Prayer. . Since CP was popularized by a Benedictine, the late Fr. Thomas Keating, that would make sense. Perhaps they weren’t explicit about it because too many Catholics have been exposed to misinformation about it from some conservative Catholic sources.
DeleteYes, I am familiar with Fr. Thomas Keating, and he was another author who was quoted. I'm pretty sure you are right about about why they avoided calling it CP. I had a book called Centering Prayer by Basil Pennington which I read in the 1970s.There were some differences from the approach used at the retreat, but quite a few similarities.
DeleteI think the misinformation comes about from misunderstanding what contemplative prayer, or centering prayer is. Some people think by quieting your mind you leave an interstice for a harmful spirit to enter in. Never mind that people open windows and doors wide open for harmful influences by the entertainment they consume and the company they keep.
The reason I didn't persevere much in contemplative prayer in the 70s and 80s was that we had young children at that time. LOL, they don't leave you a lot of quiet time!
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Delete
DeleteKatherine, I can relate. The first time I tried a regular practice of CP was in the 80s. I lasted about 6 mo. . I loved it, but trying to find 20 minutes for silent prayer in a household with three boys, a large dog, and phone calls nonstop, including for my work ( I worked mostly from home) was almost impossible. If I waited until late at night when the house was quiet I would fall asleep. I got up around 5:45 and lights weren’t out until midnight. I couldn’t drag myself out of bed any earlier as I was exhausted all of the time as it was. In June of 2000 I felt a powerful urge to go to the CP group at our church. It was overwhelming, so I eventually followed it. I will never forget walking into that room on a very hot, very humid DC night, seeing for the first time the faces of the people who would become my spiritual companions and guides for the next seven years, and KNOWING that I was supposed to be there. I can still picture it in my mind perfectly.
It sounds very interesting, Katherine. And I love that triptych.
ReplyDeleteI have never done a silent retreat. It would be challenging for me; I'm not much for silence, and my contemplation usually happens in bits and snatches rather than for prolonged periods.
K did a silent retreat prior to the Covid restrictions. It was four days, an Ignatian one, not really like the one I attended. But he is similar to you, would have preferred one with more social engagement. He was like, "Now I can cross that off my list."
DeleteThe archdiocese sponsors some retreats for the deacons, and those are the ones he prefers.
A silent retreat is meant to be an opportunity to empty your mind of daily concerns in order to be able to actually hear what the Holy Spirit is saying to you. It may be that extraverts like you, Jim, might benefit from some silence even more than introverts like me. But it would probably be better to begin with a local, half- day retreat before plunging into a multi- day retreat. Your schedule is full to bursting (some silence might really help with dealing with it all) so you would probably not be able to regularly go to a Centering Prayer group. Some possibilities from Contemplative Outreach in Chicago
Deletehttps://www.centeringprayerchicago.org/programs/
"It may be that extraverts like you, Jim, might benefit from some silence even more than introverts like me."
DeleteYou might be right, Anne! Although I fear that, within 10 minutes, I would have drifted off to sleep.
Lol! I once went to a half- day CP retreat where a man did fall asleep- even though he was sitting in a straight back chair. I think that maybe the Holy Spirit was telling him to re- examine his life, cut out some activities, and get more sleep. ;)
DeleteDifferent forms of prayer work for different people. There's that story about St Francis telling Friar Lawrence (?) that they were going to spend the whole day praying. First they washed some lepers, then they took food to some poor people, then they proclaimed the Good News to some folks who seemed to need reminders. As the sun was setting Friar Lawrence said, "I thought we were gonna pray all day." St. Francis said, "We did."
DeleteMy dad was never a "churched" person and had utter contempt for shows of piety. He was also an extrovert, and if his schedule wasn't jam-packed or he didn't have somebody's ear to bend, he was asleep in his chair.
At his memorial service, several people took me aside and said, "You never knew this about your dad, but ..." and told some story about how he'd helped somebody sick or down on their luck. If all that was true, then Dad was praying his head off every day, even if it didn't get him into Heaven like my Baptist sister-in-law insisted, but certainly appreciated by a few folks in this Vale of Tears.
It’s a pretty sure bet that your dad is in heaven. Pretty sure bet that you will get there too someday.
DeleteYeah, well, I don't believe in the Heaven of We Were Just Foolin' About All Sheep and Goats Stuff. But I no longer think that Hell is likely to be an eternity of flames and regret. That all sounds too much like something that people, not God, would think up. My sense is that most of us will have a pretty good idea where we're going at some point before we die based on our earthly choices. Some of us will be up for singing forever in the Choir Eternal with Joy Joy Joy Down in Our Hearts. And some of us will just end. I don't think it will be a big surprise to any of us.
DeleteBut I no longer think that Hell is likely to be an eternity of flames and regret. That all sounds too much like something that people, not God, would think up
DeleteYup.
One of the few things I enjoy about retirement are hours of solitude and silence on days Raber goes to the shop. The cats make good contemplative companions for wordless prayer. I suppose that's why anchoresses were admonished, "Keep no animals, sisters, but a cat."
ReplyDeleteWasn't it an Irish monk who wrote that poem about his cat, Pangur Ban?
DeleteYes. Seamus Heaney (again) translated it: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/poems/48267/pangur-ban
DeleteCats must be in the air. Had a bad night, so this morning I finished A.L. Rowse's "Peter, the White Cat of Trenarren," an entertaining if somewhat sentimental short memoir of life with his cat. Doris Lessing's "Particularly Cats" is maybe the best thing I have read along these lines. I don't care much for Lessing generally, but she is a very good observer.
Off topic. I’m asking for prayers again. (For someone who doesn’t fully believe in intercessory prayer, I sure ask for them a lot). Until about 18 months ago I was perfectly healthy except for the severe hearing loss. I took no medication on a regular basis. In fact, I still don’t. But in the last 18 months I was hit with multiple health issues. The cancer was the first.I felt it was pretty well dealt with after surgery and radiation and I have a good prognosis. I am fairly optimistic about it. Then I was hit with a series of new diagnoses. Some are not life threatening and are treatable, even though with the potential to reduce quality of life ( as the hearing loss does). One disease is potentially life threatening, and is not treatable, but can be “ managed”. The odds are decent that it won’t be what finishes me off if I continue to follow lifestyle recommendations ( diet, exercise) to maintain my current weight and normal blood pressure. But the most recent diagnosis has me really upset. I cry a lot when I think too much about it. During the exams I need for cataract surgery, I was diagnosed with macular degeneration. The odds are high that in 10-12 years I will lose my central field of vision and be unable to drive, recognize faces, and read. There are no treatments for this type of macular degeneration other than diet, management of blood pressure, weight, etc ( normal in my case), and a vitamin formula that includes specific doses of three vitamins and two minerals which may slow, but not stop, the steady, inevitable progression of the disease. I am really, really depressed about this. There is little I can do other than take the vitamins, get better sunglasses, and hope for the best. I need to read as much as I need oxygen. So, I am fighting depression. Maybe some prayers will help me deal with this a bit better. I know that Jean has had to deal with the anxieties related to her rare form of cancer for years now. She turned that into helping others with her disease. I have started CP again. It calms my anxieties a bit, and may help me eventually come to terms with this. Who knows, I may not even make it 10-12 years, but the odds are decent that I will live at least that much longer. I don’t much like fiction as audiobooks, but I’m ok with audiobooks for non- fiction. I’m going to start practicing listening to audiobooks that are fiction to get practice. And pray that I don’t also go totally deaf too.
ReplyDeleteI gave up many activities, including volunteering, because of the hearing loss. But I think the only way I can really fight the depression will be to find a way to help others - something that doesn’t require normal hearing. Thank you.
Anne, yes, prayers on the way. I can understand your depression (and fear!). I wish I could do something more to help.
DeleteAnne, I am sorry to hear about the additional health issues! I will certainly add you to my prayers.
DeleteI don't know if it is any encouragement, but my dad was diagnosed with macular degeneration more than a decade before he died. He was an avid reader too. It never did progress to the point where he couldn't read; at least the large print books.
We'll hope that yours doesn't progress very quickly.
Very sorry to hear this, Anne. I will pray for you. My mother had it. I think it got worse because she was not regularly taking the vitamin pills with the onset of dementia. She did get injections when her eyesight got bad. They seemed to work.
DeleteShe stopped complaining about what she interpreted as fog. As far as reading is concerned, even if foveal vision is lost, there may be electronic aids that can help. Plus, there is ongoing research not only in the biology of macular degeneration but in advanced prosthetic devices for vision AND hearing. All kinds of advances can be made in ten years. In the meantime, just do EVERY thing the doctor prescribes. They actually do seem to work.
Prayers for you, Anne. I am sorry you have to go through several of these setbacks in such quick succession. Infirmity forces us all to adapt to unpleasant new realities. All I can say is that most if us are old here, and once the shock wears off, we have a lot of life experience. Trust in that experience and ask for the Holy Spirit's inspiration to help you use it.
DeleteAs my aunt who lived into her nineties frequently said: “Whoever decided these were the golden years?”
DeleteI tend to take a statistical approach to health and life expectancy. When I retired at sixty, I had a life expectancy to live to be eighty. I decided to plan for that and not to worry about anything after age eighty. That worked out fine. My balance problems came along in my seventies, but I learned to adapt to a life of more limited mobility -no long-distance trips.
Now that I am eighty, the statistics say that I will live to be about ninety, and Betty has come into my life which was not planned, at least by me. Betty is younger than I, but with more health problems so it is reasonable to plan for about ten years together. However, it is also reasonable to expect that for the last five of those years one or the other of us may not be here or may be in poor health. So, we have to plan for that, and also the possibility that both of us will be in poor health.
I was privileged to be able to accompany two of my aunts into their nineties; the “these are not the golden ages” one by weekly phone calls. She lived most of the last ten years of her life alone, first in Florida and then near her daughter in law in California. Like you she had a lot of talent. But phone calls were always about the catastrophe of the week, and how she survived. Maybe she should have turned that into a book. I found both experiences very helpful in getting a realistic notion of my last decades.
Support networks are important, especially in the last decades, so we need to pay a lot of attention to them both for ourselves and for others. So, your thoughts about helping others are on the mark.
Thank you for sharing your current situation with us. Please continue to share as you feel the need and are comfortable in sharing.
I will pray for you. Betty who is the big prayer-for-others member of this household is probably already praying for you. I read her your post last night. Of course, Betty probably prays for all of you already since I sometimes read her some of the longer threads here as well as some of the more personable. She thinks of you as being a part of my family, and of course she is always updating me about her children, grandson, and great granddaughter.
Good that you are back into CP.
Your public library and council on aging likely have some info on providing reading services for the vision- and -hearing impaired.
DeleteIf you have money, good health care, and you live in an area with excellent community services, these advantages will make all the difference in your longevity and quality of life as you deal with your situation.
If the depression doesn't lift, you might want to ask your doc for more info and explain that you need to know what to expect. My original oncologist was very helpful in giving me Vegas odds on everything from spleen enlargement to fatal embolism events to life expectancy. This may allow you to stop worrying about some eventualities and come up with a good care plan.
But I get that not everyone is wired like me.
What I see in my fellow cancer patients who have just been diagnosed is a lot of emotion and catastrophizing because they don't have much info. But they're actually the ones who have better outcomes because they will take their care seriously. Statistically, the ones who die quicker are the ones who minimize their diagnosis because they "don't feel sick" and go into denial.
Thank you everyone. The encouraging anecdotes are welcome since the only two people I’ve known personally who had macular degeneration did eventually lose the ability to read and recognize faces. It seriously damaged their quality of life and robbed them of much of the joy. If I can’t drive at some point….well, I can live with that. Reading and not being able to see the faces of my loved ones…. But the succession of diagnoses of health issues in the last 18 months finally got to me with this one. It was a kick in the stomach. In 1992, both of my husband’s parents and my own mother died during a 9 month period. It was really a difficult time. In April 1993, I received the news that my brother, 16 months my elder, had died after a freak accident. He had just turned 47. That was the kick in the stomach. I was depressed for about 4 months but gradually came out of it. Generally, if I get depressed, I am ok within a few days or a couple of weeks. I’m improving now. I can never cry on the shoulders of my older siblings because they are always dealing with even worse issues. Besides, none of them have ever been supportive types in general. I have never depended on them for emotional support. So, thanks for letting me whine to you all.
DeleteStanley and Katherine need to keep up with their own eye exams as one thing I’ve learned is that there is a very strong genetic component in this. I hadn’t known that one of my older sisters and my older brother have also been diagnosed with it. They never mentioned it. I thought I was warning them of the risk. They never warned me. But for both of them, it is in a way the least of their health worries right now because they both have serious heart problems. I doubt they have researched the eye problem as I have.
Now that I have had a little time to adjust, I will be ok. I know so many people who are dealing with worse health problems, Or dealt with them for many years, with ever worsening quality of life.
Jean, I agree with you about being told the odds, and having time to research support resources in order to prepare, and to keep up with the medical research and developments. You perform a great service to those who live with the same rare cancer that you have. You have been an inspiration ever since you shared your medical issues here. Macular degeneration isn’t a life and death disease, but if it progresses, it will probably be a quality of life issue. I am blessed to have three great sons and a husband who will be there for me if my vision deteriorates dramatically as the years continue.
Jack, please thank Betty for me. As I recall, she also has some serious health concerns, including vision, since you read to her because of vision problems. I pray for her too.
A confession from the one who doesn’t pray. Although I still don’t accept conventional understandings of intercessory prayer, I have one that led me to pray again, after a conversation with my now retired EC rector. I pray for each of you by name, and also your spouses and partners, every night.
Jim is still young enough to apparently not be dealing with age related health issues. My advice to you, Jim, is to kick the fast food, high fat habit! You still have time to avoid coronary artery disease.;)
I am hardly an inspiration. I set up the group eight years ago because I needed to feel less alone (this cancer affects 1 in 150,000, about the same chances as getting struck by lightning), I had useful and credible info, and there was nothing else out there.
DeleteLest anybody think I am so wonderful, I shut down the FB group last year. Banning people posing as patients to sell quack cures and concerns over how FB might use info about participants were factors in that decision. Plus, there is much more info, and I have less positive energy to share these days, which is sometimes evidenced by my sometimes bitchy comments here. (Alas, I don't get sad and cry, I get scared and frustrated and lash out. Working on that.)
Fortunately, the Mayo Clinic sponsors a support group, and I participate in that sometimes.
Jean, I’m sorry that you had to shut down the FB group. I follow a few old friends there, have the tightest privacy controls I can set up, and they work pretty well, but I may still leave it at some point. I belong to a couple of private groups with administrators that have to vet those seeking admission. They seem to work fairly well. Did you refer your followers to Mayo when you decided to stop posting on your site?
DeleteFeel free to lash out. I cry, and it does release stress, but sometimes I also lash out also. We are human and have emotions, and when we have to deal with bad situations that we have little or no control over, our emotions sometimes get the better of us. At least they do of me. When my puritans descended mother- in - law was dying of ovarian cancer she kept her stiff upper lip. I never saw even a tiny display of emotion from her during the three months that followed her diagnosis and prognosis. She probably cried when nobody was around to witness it.
I regularly pray that a new treatment will be discovered for you. Now I’m adding a petition for a new treatment for macular degeneration also. It’s all I can do besides take the vitamins and up my consumption of dark green leafy vegetables!
There are new treatments. I, and most other people, cannot afford them.
DeletePegylated interferon injections ($6,000 per month) sometimes make it thru the insurance gauntlet for women of child-bearing age because it is the only drug that doesn't cross placental lines. In Europe, this is the first line treatment for everyone in countries with subsidized care.
JAK mutation inhibitors had some promise, but enough patients were suddenly progressing to terminal lymphoma on that that it they've pulled back on it.
Stem cell transplant is the only cure, and about half those patients die from having their immune systems wiped out in the process. Two cousins with similar cancers had SCT. One was dead in six months of from pneumonia and heart failure. How his wife is going to pay off hundreds of thousands in medical debt on a teacher salary is beyond me. Likely bankruptcy. The other is alive but on disability due to constant infections. I am not eligible for SCT because of a genetic heart valve defect. I wouldn't put Raber through that, anyway.
More than you need to know, I realize, but your prayers might better be directed toward better health care access.
Stiff upper lip was always the gold standard in my family. If you started bawling and hugging people, it was usually a sign you were drunk or off your meds.
I should add that the generic chemo I take to manage the cancer is very cheap. Unfortunately, India makes most of our generic drugs (not enough profit for American makers), and shortages in foreign generics occur more frequently now. As climate change disasters, pandemics, and political instability hit various parts of the world, the drug supply for many people will become more unstable.
DeleteThere are few things that make me as angry as our horrible healthcare system. There is no excuse for it. America spends multiples more of its GDP on healthcare than any other developed country in the world. American individuals spend thousands more out of pocket than people in other counties even after the insurance payments kick in - insurance for which they have contributed $ thousands in premiums in addition to their employers’ premiums. And we rank around 25th in outcomes while spending tons more money.
DeleteIt is tragic that so many Americans are unable to afford the treatments that could save their lives. America is still the richest nation in the world yet we have allowed corporate greed to be the primary influence on our healthcare system. The politicians who are in the pockets of the big players in the system - the corporations that own most hospitals now, the insurance companies, the pharma companies - whose primary concern is cutting services, cutting costs, raising premiums etc in order to maximize profits and boost their stock prices. The voters have been totally taken in by the big lies by Republicans about the systems in other countries, that not only provide affordable, universal access, but are far less costly because they aren’t founded on a profit- making system. They cry Socialism, knowing that most of their voters don’t even know what socialism really is. In fact, I think most GOP politicians themselves don’t know because the current lot are so woefully ignorant. And so many of the voters have had so little personal contact with other countries that they don’t even realize that the citizens of these “socialist” countries have just as much freedom, or more, than we do, but also a higher standard of living.
Rick Steves says he runs his tours so that fearful Americans can at least get some minimal exposure to life in other countries because he knows that most Americans over 35 have little personal experience in other countries and so have totally uninformed opinions about the high quality of life in these “socialist” countries. He advocates independent travel whenever possible ( we do too - that’s how we’ve always traveled overseas) but knows that so many are afraid to try it on their own he provides tours to Europe . He says that many have to learn the joys of travel by starting in kindergarten. Different cultures, but not too different! Then they can buy his books and learn how to travel independently. Eventually they might get more daring and travel to Asia, Latin America or other more “exotic” countries .
Betty told me here father had macular degeneration. At least through his eighties until he died at 97. He only stopped driving at 95 and gave up reading newspapers then. He had magnifying glasses all around the house because he liked to read.
DeleteI believe there are two types of macular degeneration, wet and dry. One is more treatable than the other.
DeleteSo probably not a great idea to rely on anecdotal reports about how well or poorly somebody's Aunt Daisy did. It can set up expectations that may be unrealistically high or low.
But get used to hearing everybody's stories because if you have a chronic disease, everybody and his brother is going to give you info, advice, and tell you how you should feel.
Travel to Tuscany with Rick Steves sounds like a pretty bourgie and roundabout way to wake people up about health care unless he's also working in tours of medical facilities. But whatever works ...
DeleteBaby steps, Jean, baby steps. They can dip their toes in foreign waters while feeling safe. But - It’s likely that every now and then one of the tourists will visit a medical facility. I started in- depth research of European healthcare systems in 2005 after my husband had a stroke while we were in a small town in the south of France. He received excellent care, but we were holding our breath waiting for the bill - a full week, three different hospitals while they took tests and worked out where to finally send him (Toulon), multiple high tech tests etc. once in Toulon, where they had the best neurology dept in the region, three different specialists in Toulon, including the neurologist. Three one hour long ambulance trips. If he had been French, it would have been completely covered. But he was a tourist from a different country. We felt relieved when we finally got the bill. The total was about $6000. Two days at Hopkins for another test when we returned was $80,000. Fortunately we had insurance that covered most, but we did pay a few thousand out of pocket. If we had been uninsured, they would have come after us for the whole $80k. . My (60 year old) niece was injured in Paris two years ago - excellent treatment in the ER where the ambulance took her and a small payment of around $100, including the ambulance. Thé average cost of an ER visit in the US is almost $3000. If you have no insurance…. Another friend needed stitches while visiting France - $35. Last summer something flew in our 2 year old granddaughter’s eye in Spain. She was treated at a clinic by a PA, who then called an ophthalmologist to be sure that there was nothing too serious. The ophthalmologist gave them two prescriptions for her. The total cost of the clinic, the two medical professionals, and the two filled prescriptions was $45. So even Rick Steve’s tourists might get experience with a medical clinic in Tuscany.
DeleteActually, I welcome the stories. Some are encouraging, others give me information that I can research and serve as a resource for asking questions.
DeleteIn my experience, people like to tell you that you should be grateful it's not worse, tell you a horror story about someone who had the same thing, tell you your doctor is no good, tell you your meds will kill you, or want to know what you did to bring your illness on yourself.
DeleteBefore I shut down my group, I had participants on every continent except Antarctica. It was clear that the best places to be sick were the UK, Italy, and Serbia. Meds were readily available, specialists coordinated care with local docs so patients did not have to travel around, protocols were top notch, and doctors were sympathetic.
The worst places to be sick were the Phillippines and India, where care was expensive or inaccessible, and doctors were misdiagnosing or were treating people based on outdated info.
The patients most likely to resist conventional treatment were almost all in the U.S.
Quack clinics thrive because they offer encouragement, sympathy, time, and they listen. That suggests to me that patients don't have a lot of emotional support from doctors (that certainly has been my experience), or family and friends. The way I treat my own friends and family with chronic illnesses has changed a lot since I got sick.
I do believe there are cultural attitudes about illness that greatly affect quality of life, and that the U.S. is a hard place to be sick, not just because our health care system is messed up.
Anyway, thank you for engaging on this topic. I'll put a plug in it now, as it is not something of interest to the larger group.
Well, I think your experiences and insights are very interesting. Especially this, which reflects my experience too ( lack of emotional support from medical staff and extended family like siblings especially) -
DeleteQuack clinics thrive because they offer encouragement, sympathy, time, and they listen. That suggests to me that patients don't have a lot of emotional support from doctors (that certainly has been my experience), or family and friends…..,,,,and that the U.S. is a hard place to be sick, not just because our health care system is messed up.