A friend of mine went through a brutal divorce. His ex-wife is now seeking an annulment. He participated in the interview and recorded it secretly which is allowed in his state. This is because, given his experience in the divorce, he trusts no one. He let me listen to the recording and, of course, being Catholic, I was curious. The questions pretty much seemed as I would expect within the context of trying to prove both parties were able or unable to form a valid intent for a sacramental marriage. The one thing that stood out was the priest's question after my friend informed him that the ex-wife had cheated on him. The priest asked him if he had done anything to precipitate it. I thought rules are rules and doing wrong had no relation to external causation, not that there was any. He honored his vows. She didn't even have that for a reason. But I wondered if that was a conventional question or an overextension of me-too where all evil and crime are the fault of the guys. Even Elizabeth Holmes of Theranos fame tried to blame her Man for making her defraud investors of hundreds of millions.
Anyway, it will be interesting to see what the outcome is. He testified that he thought both of them were adults, not especially young, and that he thought the full intent to fulfill the sacrament was there. He definitely tried to save the marriage but, in the process, he was set up in many ways and paid dearly.
It is my opinion that she is incapable of making a commitment superior to what she did before. But I guess that is not relevant to Church law and the annulment outcome.
What I heard was that in our archdiocese about 95% of annulment requests are eventually granted. It's sort of like if the marriage has failed, by definition one or both partners didn't have what it takes to make a sacramental commitment.
ReplyDeleteIt sounds like your friend was committed to the relationship, but his ex, not so much. If the annulment is granted, it may seem that it is rewarding her. But reality is that it freeing him too. She may keep making the same mistakes, but it won't be his problem any more. And maybe he can find someone who will treat him better.
I think the priest's question was probably a conventional one, which was likely asked to his ex also.
DeleteI don't think he's thinking he'll ever be married sacramentally or otherwise. Getting partial custody of his daughter pretty much financially ruined him. He's in his late fifties and doesn't think he has a second chance at this point. He works like a dog under increasingly adverse conditions and spends all his free time with his daughter.
DeleteHe hasn't dated once since the divorce.
Altogether, a very sad story. And I just listen to him without trying to give him hope because, frankly, I don't see any. Maybe, at some point, I can give him financial aid but he is proud.
I shouldn't say there's no hope. There is a possible path forward. Pray it develops.
DeleteStanley, I'm sure it means a lot to him that you are there to listen to him.
DeleteKatherine, it actually does. So I will continue. Maybe God's given me a job.
DeleteThe Orthodox procedure of admitting that the marriage was a failure and moving on to a second or even third marriage that is done with a penitential service seems far more reasonable than our practice. I suspect that at some level most people in a divorce experience failure even if it is "how could I have been so dumb." I am not sure that saying a marriage never was even though there are children because the other person failed works.
ReplyDeleteThe Orthodox do have a limit usually around marriage three or four when it is time to say "look you are not serious about keeping your vows so why go through a church ceremony."
Many clinicians have concluded that there is no such thing as no fault divorce. Some one always gets hurt, usually the kids. They have found that in cases where parents part amicably the kids conclude that the kids caused it. These children as adults often experience difficulty in committing themselves to marriage because they are afraid that whatever caused their parents divorce will also cause them to fail. On the other hand sometimes when kids see clearly that one person is at fault they decide that they know what caused the divorce and can avoid that in their marriage.
I agree with you that the Orthodox way is better. And, yes, I think the greatest harm has been done to the daughter. I dread what the future brings. But survival is possible. I always liked the German word "überleben".
DeleteI'm sorry for your friend, it sounds like a horrible couple of chapters of his life. I don't have any experience with annulments from either side of the table, so can't comment as to whether or not it's a standard question.
ReplyDeleteI asked him if the priest conducting the interview was young. He said he was. I thought maybe this was one of the lousy jobs they give newbies. I don't know if the priest sensed he was with a guy who doesn't trust or respect judges, lawyers, police or anyone else who has automatic status. Well, throw in the rest of the human race, as well. People tell him to get over it and past it. But his ex is a harpy who is purely adversarial, and he is joined at the hip through the child. Until she is 18. Six more years.
DeleteI don't think it's a job they give to newbies, even if they are young. Our present priest served in the archdiocesan marriage tribunal for something like 25 years (maybe he's out here because he got tired of hearing all the awful stories). He said he was required to have a doctorate in canon law for the job.
DeleteWe know a woman who is a lawyer (civil, not ecclesial). She said in divorce cases if you end up with both parties mad at you, you probably handled it in a fair way.
There are deacon couples who do the interviews and accompany the one going through the annulment process. Katherine, perhaps the same is true in your archdiocese? We've been asked if we'd be interested, but we were in the thick of parenthood (and marriage) and didn't think we had the time to take on something like that. Maybe if the nest ever empties ...
DeleteI believe there are deacons now who are formally part of the tribunal in the archdiocese. I personally know some who informally have assisted people and walked them through the paperwork. My husband has not done that yet but would be willing to assist parishioners if needed.
DeleteBtw, I'm a little unsure about what the priest was asking about ... what would my wife do which might cause me to cheat on her? Maybe I'm just being dense, but I can't think of a set of circumstances that would make her culpable for that particular action.
ReplyDeleteI do know someone who had a "revenge affair" because her spouse had a series of extramarital affairs; apparently she felt betrayed and wounded, so went out and had an affair herself so he'd experience the same emotional pain. My understanding is that, in the context of the divorce proceedings, her affair was a big mistake because her infidelity meant she had ceded the moral high ground. This is all kind of third hand hearsay on my part; not sure if that's exactly how divorce proceedings work.
Not sure if your state is no-fault, ours is. But as far as a financial settlement, it seems likely that a cheated-upon spouse might get preferential treatment versus one who had cheated.
DeleteRight. These folks didn't live in my state, but I think no-fault is pretty universal now in the US?
DeleteI think the impact was that her spouse's lawyer used the occasion to rake up all the mud and cast her in the worst possible light - as you say, probably as they worked through the settlement. I'm sure it was all humiliating, degrading, infuriating and awful.
FWIW - a bit of a chill ran down my spine, reading that Stanley's friend secretly taped the interview, and that it's legal in that state. In today's cancel culture, I guess we need to treat each and every interpersonal interaction with the expectation that it's being recorded, filmed and will be on social media within the hour.
ReplyDeleteYes, it seems not very proper but he's been set up before by an unethical professional. He fears collusion and it is a defensive move. Given what was done to him, I can't blame him. Recordings already saved him from false and vile allegations. But, yes, it makes you think twice.
DeleteInformation on recording conversations - state list.
DeletePennsylvania and Illinois require consent from both parties.
https://www.justia.com/50-state-surveys/recording-phone-calls-and-conversations/