John Allen wrote a fine answer yesterday.
Medjugorje message expresses Pope Francis’s ‘Marian Classic’
The only thing I thought was missing was the explicit link to popular religious culture. That is what is implied by "classic" and the preference for well established devotions rather than novel ones and "messages."
For example he likely sees the devotion surrounding Our Lady of Fatima as much more important than all the speculation over the years about the messages. The devotion comes from the people, the speculation more from the media and religious entrepreneurs promoting themselves as much or more than genuine faith.
An interesting aspect of the article is that both Benedict and Francis share the notion that simple people often have a better appreciation of the faith than the learned, and that often finds expression in Marian devotion.
After a lot of investigation by the Vatican it looks like they (including Francis) have accepted that the initial visions, whatever their authenticity, have sparked some genuine religious renewal. They seem to be trying to grow that renewal while maintaining some critical distance from the visionaries.
There is the problem that Mary seems to have one or more of the original kids on speed dial and simply can't shut up.
ReplyDeleteISTM that if you make "religious renewal" a criterion, you are demeaning the apparitions that have more to them. I know a Catholic gentleman, big strong guy, who was deeply moved at Necedah, WI., which I mentioned earlier, and also at some site in New Jersey that the local authority looks upon as fake. He saw the sun do something in the Garden State. He is, in most respects, a conventional Catholic; his whole family including grown kids attends Mass together on Sunday. But in his head, I am afraid, his theology sits somewhere between ouija board and Holy Roller. I.e., it is 100% "popular."
"ISTM that if you make "religious renewal" a criterion, you are demeaning the apparitions that have more to them."
DeleteYes, I agree - it was kind of a stating-the-bare-minimum statement on Francis's part.
I'd expect Francis to have a lively and capacious popular spirituality - that would seem consonant with what we know about him. I hope being a Jesuit doesn't suck all that out of a person!
Jack, many thanks for this, this is exactly the info I was looking for.
ReplyDeleteFrancis' acceptance of Medjugorje amounts to less than a full-hearted embrace, doesn't it?
Thanks for linking the John Allen article, Jack. I thought it was very good, and expressed Francis' line of thought well. It is significant that he didn't say anything about the visions, but spoke instead about Mary's scriptural role, that she said "yes" to God.
ReplyDeleteI too have a problem with the "Mary as postmistress" theme. However I know people who made the pilgrimage (to Medjugorje) and said they were spiritually changed. Including one priest who said that was where he felt the call to the priesthood. I think God works with whatever openings people give him.
Re: "Mary as postmistress" (can't we just call her a postmaster?)
DeleteIstm there are two dangers here. One, which I think Francis is alluding to, is that Mary isn't simply our personal messenger for our every whim and desire ("Mary, please help me to win the corporate sales contest so I can win the BMW"). In pointing this out, though, I don't think Francis is denying that the saints intercede for us. But their intercession is not on the order of whims-and-desires; I hope the saints are asking God to help me with things that I'm too stupid or proud to ask for myself.
Katherine,, how were do these people change?
DeleteI don't know any medjugorje pilgrims personally, so my impressions have been formed simply by reading and conversations with some who do know them. They seem a gullible lot, to be honest, inclined towards both a superficial and a superstitious form of religion
It is my impression that they are, as a group, extremely conservative, both in their understanding of Catholicism and politically. In general, the studies done by Pew and others indicate that the most active Catholics ( mass every week or more often) are predominantly Trump and GOP supporters. Present company excepted, of course. White evangelicals who are weekly or more minimum church attendees are overwhelmingly GOP and Trump.
Since I don't see how anyone who tries to follow Jesus' teachings can support trump, or even the current GOP, it almost seems that the "spiritual changes" do not actually lead people to follow Christ, but to follow something else entirely. A ritualized firm of religious practice that has little true spiritualality. The secular types and atheists often seem more inclined to act as christians should than these (allegedly) devout, Christians - sincere maybe, but totally missing the message of the gospels. Judgmental of me, know, but it seems that these pilgrimages attract people with certain kinds of emotional makeups that are highly susceptible to religious manipulation.
It is possible that the people who say that they were changed, were looking for a change, and that is why they were on a pilgrimage. The man I know who became a priest was in the working overseas in Asia Minor. He was fascinated by the churches mentioned in Revelation, and visited as many of the sites as he could. He then ended up going to Medjugorge and was very moved by his experience. I actually think he was considering the priesthood before and this just solidified it. He seems a pretty mainstream guy, not really one of the "rad trad" type.
DeleteAnother person who made a pilgrimage to Med was a former coworker. He is a rather emotional person and it seemed that the experience was very meaningful to him.
I have come across some other people, whom I didn't know well, who were very into the whole thing, and maybe seemed a little strange.
It seems like whatever people were before, they became "more so". I don't know that they would all be Trump supporters.
Omit "in the" in the third line above.
DeleteWhat is a spiritual change? If it is what the person believed before ONLY MORE SO, I would suspect the spiritual experience is ginned up from within. If it involved quitting a mid-six-figure job and opening a Catholic Worker House, I would certainly be willing to hear more. Or quitting the KKK and going to work for the Urban League. That would suggest a spiritual experience.
DeleteAfter my Cursillo, I spent a week praying over the question of what-am-I-going-to-do-with-this, and the next thing I knew I was on the boards of two civil rights organizations. It wasn't a complete change of mind, but it was rather spectacular propulsion off my duff and was noticed and remarked on by those who knew me.
Great reflections. Some seeds fall on the pathway, some grow quickly but get scorched by the sun, some take root and produce much fruit.
DeleteIt's also possible that some people already are where God wants them to be, and a dramatic life change could be the wrong thing. Dickens probably didn't have to exercise his powers of imagination too strenuously to conjure up Mrs. Jellyby, who neglected her family in her zeal to help Africans.
Ignatius in his autobiography said he had a vision early on in his conversion. He criteria for authenticity included not only that it converted him then but for the remainder of his life and that others remarked how much he had changed. Ignatius tells this to his scribe in a way that suggests that even late in life he might rethink all the vision if he found it led to serious sin.
ReplyDeleteHowever Ignatius had other spiritual experience, e.g. a light or a deep desire for remaining in prayer, that he ultimately determined were not from God. The "prayer attraction" occurred during his studies; he decided God wanted him to study (it was very difficult) so he limited prayer.
In advanced Ignatian discernment it was very important to understand that we are often tempted not by evil things but by the lesser good, e.g. to prayer when the more difficult task that God is calling us to do might be to help a neighbor.
"...we are often tempted not by evil things but by the lesser good..."I
DeleteDefinitely something to keep in mind as a caution.
A few years ago we flew into the airport in Dubrovnik, Croatia. There was a man standing at the exit area with a sign,apparently waiting for a group with the destination of Medjugorje. I assume he was some kind of tour driver. I had not thought of Med... in years. I checked to see how far away it was from Dubrovnik - 2.5 hours drive, roughly. Too far. I would have gone just out of curiosity had it been closer. But our time was limited in Croatia, and we also wanted to go to Montenegro. so there was no time for a side trip to satisfy my curiosity.
ReplyDeleteBut, I imagine a trip there in person would not have changed me to become more religious. Witnessing it all in person would more likely have reinforced my cynicism about the whole thing. Perhaps a different kind of example of finding what you expect to find there. Those seeking some kind of religious certainty via the mechanism of messages from Mary, mediated through visionaries, might find it there, real or not. And I would have had my suspicions that it is all a charade (one that makes a whole lot of money for a whole lot of people) confirmed.
Maybe. And I would not be surprised if I had the same reaction. But how could we be certain that they were in the wrong and we were not missing something important?
DeleteI think that our group here tends to be a skeptical bunch. What seems to some people to be a wholehearted acceptance of the miraculous, is more likely to strike us as credulous. Yet I am aware, and perhaps others here are as well, of the reality of numinous experience. How to reconcile this is difficult for me.
DeleteMe, too.
DeleteTom, maybe you are right. Maybe all those folk spending a lot of time and money to go to Bosnia and Herzegovina find something "important" there. [I do hope they all take a few days in Croatia and Montenegro before heading home though. After all, they are in the general neighborhood. Spectacular doesn't begin to describe it!]
ReplyDeleteBut, what if they are simply traveling thousands of miles to discover something about themselves that they could find at home? Perhaps if they learned to sit in silence, in order to hear the voice of God in their inmost being - their soul - they wouldn't need to travel so far. I suspect that they could find what they are looking for without getting on a plane.
However, there is also something to be said for removing oneself from the everyday environment. "Getting away" can also help one learn to listen. As you all know, we love to travel and we have traveled a lot. I have experienced a few "numinous" moments far, far from home, even though not on a formal religious pilgrimage. But I have also experienced them about 3 miles from my home, sitting in a quiet part of the Potomac river embankment 12 miles from where it runs through the city. [Never have experienced numinous moments in a formal religious setting, however, unless you count a labyrinth on a church's grounds]
One concern I have is that they are being manipulated to spend money that some might better use for other things. Perhaps manipulated into generous donations to the Franciscans there. But who am I to say? Just hate to see the Catholics fleecing
sincere people the same way the televangelists do.
I was disturbed by the actions of some travel agencies that run pilgrimages that have refused refunds.
Story in NCRonline - https://www.ncronline.org/news/people/catholic-pilgrimage-industry-faces-rescheduled-trips-and-refund-requests
Comment to the story in the "letters" to the editor.
"Thank you for Sophie Vodvarka's article on travel companies making money on canceling religious pilgrimages because of COVID-19. The un-Catholic behavior of these companies is appalling. Yet the actions of the companies described in the article pale in comparison to that of Nawas, a Connecticut-based religious travel company.
I was scheduled on a May 2020 ... Tour which was canceled. We had already paid Nawas the full tour price. After cancellation, Nawas extorted a $1,150 per person cancellation fee unless you agreed to participate in a 2022 Tour ... The travel insurance sold by Nawas has been unhelpful to date.
https://www.ncronline.org/news/opinion/ncr-today/your-thoughts-lgbt-catholics-canceled-pilgrimages-womens-ordination-and-more
Well, charging people for not seeing the Passion Play is a new twist on "take up your cross."
DeleteThat may be modern business. My doctor decided I need some tests since he hasn't seen me for 10 months. Normally, he'd give me an Rx, and I'd make the appointment. But in the era of Covid 19, he faxes what he wants to the lab, and the lab calls me to make the appointment. So yesterday, I got a robocall from the lab saying they were calling to set up the appointment. Then I was on hold for 13 minutes, getting messages about how good the lab is and how important my call was to them. When someone was finally available, she asked how she could help me, and I replied, in my dry defend-thyself manner, that she called me 13 minutes ago. "Oh, that's the computer," she said. Big Wheels have always had flunkies to call people and stand by for Mr. Wheel so Mr. Wheel wouldn't waste his time, but now robos and doing the flunkie job for flunkies. No wonder Trump won.
My take on a lot of pilgrimages is that some people use them as an excuse to travel. They seem to think they need a better reason than just wanting to travel. Hopefully they have some fun on the side. Weren't they kind of doing that in Canterbury Tales?
ReplyDeleteCome to think of it, when the virus finally gets controlled, maybe I will suggest a pilgrimage to Molokai, to visit St. Damiwn's shrine. Just happens to be in Hawaii...
"St. Damien's"...seems to be my day for typos.
DeleteKatherine, that is one pilgrimage I might join!
ReplyDelete