Wednesday, November 20, 2019
Why do Christians love hell? The Tablet
The cover story was written by David Bentley Hart. I'm sure some of you here already know his work, but he's new to me. I had heard his name somewhere, and was intrigued by the title of the essay Why do we love hell?. Wiki tells me that he converted to eastern Orthodoxy from Anglicanism. Not sure why he was an Anglican and not Episcopalian, since he is American. Guessing he likes high church liturgies. He is also a member of the Democratic Socialist party. Interesting guy.
Somehow The Tablet, the British Catholic magazine, obtained my email and has been sending me weekly teasers of the latest stories. I found that if I gave up my email again to the Tablet, I could read full stories (a limited number I assume). The title interested me, as it raises questions that I have long had, and even more after the discussion on whether or not baptism is required to be "saved", and the muddiness surrounding the topic of how "baptism" is defined.
He is a scholar and an academic. Apparently he is often controversial, but he noted that his most recent book, That All Shall Be Saved: Heaven, Hell and Universal Salvation has brought forth even more than the usual reactions of horror on the part of some reviewers.
Advancing salvation for all, a theologian and philosopher wonders why traditional believers insist that a loving and just God must condemn some souls to eternal torment
....The argument advanced in my book is that what has come to be the traditional Christian understanding of hell (a state of eternal conscious torment for rational beings, either imposed or permitted by a loving and just God) is warranted neither by Scripture, nor by the history of doctrine, nor by logic, nor by theological reason. In fact, my overarching claim is that the only version of Christian belief which is internally logically coherent and credible is one that proclaims universal salvation and total cosmic restoration, omitting not a single soul or spirit.
Many authors are speaking and writing about it from different parts of the christian spectrum, from wildly different backgrounds It is an idea I came to some years back, as my doubts evolved from questioning mainly specifically RC teachings to questioning many more generally held christian teachings. I always feel better when I stumble across a christian scholar or cleric -- anyone who is far more educated in theology and scriptures than am I -- who has written about the doubts and questions I entertain, providing some comfort to fears that I am an un-redeemable heretic. Affirmation from "experts" is comforting.
Hart's essay in the Tablet.
Another very recent article, by a former Evangelical pastor
Richard Rohr has written extensively on the "universal Christ".
"This is not heresy, universalism, or a cheap version of Unitarianism," Rohr writes. "This is the Cosmic Christ, who always was, who became incarnate in time, and who is still being revealed."
Rob Bell, another once hugely popular preacher in the evangelical world was more or less drummed out when he too questioned the existence of hell.
To anyone looking for loopholes in the doctrine of damnation, the Bible offers plenty, and last year Bell compiled many of them, in a book called “Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived.”
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I have read that this question goes back at least as long ago as Origen of Alexandria, who lived 184-253 AD. Origen was a prolific and (sometines) well regarded writer and theologian. He was in favor, then he wasn't, then he was again. His belief was that in the end, all would be saved. It is unclear if his "wasn't" in favor period was due to beliefs that were considered unorthodox, or the rumor the he did some serious self-harm by castrating himself.
ReplyDeleteMore recently, Swiss theologian Hans Urs von Balthazar, explored the idea that hell exists (because of free will), but there might be no one in it.
I think Origen did get in, hmmm, hot water for some of his views. Perhaps doubting hell was one of them. I will have to look it up.
ReplyDelete"Swiss theologian Hans Urs von Balthazar, explored the idea that hell exists (because of free will), but there might be no one in it."
A bit like the old question - "If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody there to hear it, does it make a sound?"
For me, the doubts came some years back when I started pondering this:
why [do] traditional believers insist that a loving and just God ... condemn some souls to eternal torment
If God is love, and God created human beings because of love, then it seems like a mischaracterization of God to believe that he condemns people to ETERNAL suffering of some kind.
Purgatory is not supported by scripture either, but it makes far more sense to me than does the idea that a God who is Love willfully creates human beings whom he knows will be sinners, and who can eventually be tortured for all eternity.
The RCC has a lot to answer for when it taught we parochial school children in the 1950s that just eating a hamburger on a Friday would be enough to damn us to hell for all eternity if we happened to get hit by a car and die before we could confess this "mortal" sin.
Purgatory makes more sense to me also. There is the qestion of justice; what about people who deliberately did horrible things and died unrepentant? A longish stretch in the holding tank would give them an opprtunity to face what they had done and repent of it.
DeleteThere is also the theory that the fires of hell might be consuming, that is, that the unrepentant sinner would be annihilated and no longer exist. Which I find unsatisfactory, does God destroy something that he created?
I know what you mean about bad theology about things such as meat on Friday back in the old days. That sort of thing caused me a lot of anxiety as a child. "House rules" such as that don't even satisfy the catechism definition of what makes a sin mortal. But children are incapable of sorting through all that, and it was wrong to scare them to death over it. Especially since what a child eats and whether he or she gets to Mass on Sunday is dependent for the most part on adults.
The suffering God tolerates in this world ought to be proof enough that God would tolerate it in the next.
ReplyDeleteThe Creed tells all Christians that Christ died and "descended to the dead (i.e., Hell). What he did there is unknown, but we have many legends about the Harrowing of Hell.
Among Catholics, it is widely believed that certain Jewish prophets were released, but there is no official list. It is also believed that the Harrowing was a one-time deal.
My Episcopalian and Catholic instruction tells me that God does not condemn us, but that we condemn ourselves through sin, unrepentence, and disobedience.
I believe that the Hereafter and our fate there is unknowable, but hinges on God's mercy and not how nice we are or how many rules we follow.
I believe theologians and catechists have muddied the waters about damnation out of their own hopes, fears, and interests.
The "descent into Hell" is usually explained as the harrowing of Hell on Holy Saturday, when the dead humans, against whom the doors of heaven were closed by Adam, were led to their final reward by the rising Lord himself. The humans were in Sheol, which was a Jewish version of purgatory, but much more detailed.
Delete"My Episcopalian and Catholic instruction tells me that God does not condemn us, but that we condemn ourselves through sin, unrepentence, and disobedience." Yeah. Well, if there is no Hell, there is no justice for some of the people you know damn well belong there. Jesus seems (to me) to have believed in Hell (but purgatory not so much).
Shows such as Lost and the Good Place have sorta glommed onto the de facto idea of purgatory. Maybe it is code for ambiguity; all the things we don't know about the hereafter.
DeleteI'm not sure that The Good Place bears watching for more than a season or two, but it's kind of interesting. Hell, behind the scenes, is pretty much like everyone's workplace (only more so). There is a judge who allows things to happen to people without really caring. People discover they're in Hell only when they confront their own impure motives and then admit they belong there. There are endless do-overs. A larger force seems to be at work, even among the demons, which brings about changes ... at an excruciatingly slow pace. Scholars and academics who know a lot about theology and ethics are no better than the rest of us. Manipulation by evil forces occurs, but free will is always possible.
DeleteThere is frozen yogurt in Hell.
It would be fun to see a Confirmation program use the series as a springboard to discussion.
Hart has been in Commonweal at least twice -- once to tell us we are not doing nearly enough to meet our biblical obligations to the poor(I printed out that one) and once to say that the idea of marriage as a sacrament and can never be broken is a late idea of the Western church and the reason that the Church in the West, had to invent the convenient fiction that some marriages were not valid ex post facto. He writes very clearly. He often says less than he seems to be saying, though.
ReplyDeleteSome have suggested that part of the pleasure of heaven is knowing that people are damned, i.e. they are getting what they deserve.
ReplyDeleteI remember only a few homilies, one decades ago on Good Shepherd Sunday.
A visiting priest told the story of his housekeeper. She was a devoted fan of Nixon until all the revelations of the impeachment process. Then she couldn't stand him and would click off the rectory TV anytime he came on.
The priest suggested to her that God might just forgive Nixon all his sins and that she might have to spend all eternity with him! Never she said. He reminded her that there really were not many other options.
He asked us to consider the "miracle of the Good Shepherd." Think of all the people that that we dislike, that so and so neighbor, that terrible boss, etc. God is going to forgive all these people and have us live together for all eternity!
HOW IS HE GOING TO DO IT???
He then promptly began the recitation of the creed.
I once had a conversation with a relative who wondered how one could be happy in heaven if one knew that a loved one was in hell. She was troubled about it and evidently had someone in mind whom she thought might not make it through the pearly gates. I didn't know what to tell her, but I could understand what she was getting at. She said, "Maybe in that case we would just not remember the person at all."
DeleteAbout how we can put up with everyone in heaven who got on our nerves on earth, I have thought that in heaven we will see them as God sees them, and troubled relationships will be healed. Maybe that process is something that happens in purgatory. I marvel at the patience of God, who has to put up with about 8 billion of us. "Our Lord's patience is directed towards salvation." ( 2 Peter 3:15)
Very nice, Jack.
DeleteI have often thought that if I am not ready to share the Table with the likes of Alex Jones, Dr. Kevorkian, my sister-in-law, and whomever else God might deem fit to seat there, that I will be invited to reside in Hell.
I presume God may allow me a gasp of surprise to see some of these folks. Just as I am sure that, in the unlikely event that I manage a seat, many people, including some here, would gasp to see me.
All this presumes that a Hereafter of any.kind actually exists, and I have deep doubts about that.
in heaven we will see them as God sees them,
DeleteKatherine, I think there is something to that theory.
Of course here in earth we are often seen very differently by different people. Decades ago when I worked for a mental health center I was drinking my coffee and eating a donut in preparation for a large staff meeting when a new employee came up to me and whispered in my ear "I am told you are very brilliant" to which I responded "Yes that is what my guidance counselor in ninth grade told me." Later on that evening I walked into a meeting of family members and one of our nurses said "speak of the devil, I was just telling them how I wanted to kill you this morning for your fidgeting during the staff meeting." While I see myself as trying my best to get through life, some people see me as brilliant while others would like to kill me.
My theory is that God controls how much of the divine we see in others and others see in us. That it is a way that God intervenes in our ordinary affairs very subtly. If I see good things in others and they see good things in me, those are the people with whom I am meant to collaborate. If I am not impressed with some people who impress others, it just means I am not meant to work with them.
So indeed in heaven we may see others, and others may see us as God sees us. Finally I am sure that God often conceals his presence in us not only to others but also to ourselves. First of all because "we cannot see the face of God and live" this side of heaven and secondly to keep us from becoming spiritually proud.
I presume God may allow me a gasp of surprise to see some of these folks. from Jean
This is my explanation of purgatory, namely the adjustment we experience when we discover that a lot of people and things are not what we though they were.
Thinking about the Hereafter is very difficult because so much will likely be different both in terms of space and time.
"My theory is that God controls how much of the divine we see in others and others see in us. That it is a way that God intervenes in our ordinary affairs very subtly. If I see good things in others and they see good things in me, those are the people with whom I am meant to collaborate. If I am not impressed with some people who impress others, it just means I am not meant to work with them."
DeleteInteresting, but my sense is that our own sins restrict how much of the divine we see in others. Most of us don't have the luxury of declining to work with those in whom we fail to discern a divine spark.
I remember that line from the old Twilight Zone episode, "A Nice Place to Visit". "Heaven? Whatever gave you the idea that you were in heaven, Mr. Valentine? This IS the other place." If Trump ends up in heaven with all of us losers, it might be hell for HIM.
ReplyDelete