The analysis gives an example of the caravan's origins in the work of a former Honduran legislator and his wife, a human rights organizer. This matches something the WSJ mentioned the other day in an editorial (no accompanying news story).
It may feed Trump's conspiracy theories, but VOX points to a more cogent and complicated set of reasons: (1) the usual: violence and economic conditions; (2) and the new: people have decided that traveling in a large group is free (no coyotes to pay), is safer (than coyotes, gangs, etc.), and families with children can come together instead of adults going alone.
VOX offers the most detailed report I've seen thus far. [No middle eastern terrorists mentioned; of course that doesn't mean they aren't there in the guise of a 7 -year old boy!]
Question: What does Gene Palumbo make of this story and of the caravan(s) themselves?
UPDATE The NYTimes read VOX! and has added to the story:
"SAN PEDRO SULA, Honduras — The flier
began circulating on social media in Honduras this month, ....It
was a call to join a caravan, the work of leftist activists and
politicians who had helped lead migrants north in the past. But they
also tossed a political spark into the mix, blaming their right-wing
government for the exodus: “The violence and poverty is expelling us.” They never expected it to ignite an international firestorm.
"Far
from Honduras, the White House was busy grappling with the killing of
Jamal Khashoggi, .... And
with the midterm elections in the United States only weeks away,
President Trump was eager to change the script."
MOBS COMMENT: And change it he did...though it looks like someone else also tried to change it with pipe bombs.....
Whaa??? This is an organized Democratic plot! Never mind that three Democrats locked in a closet couldn't agree on how to organize a way out.
ReplyDeleteYes, good article, thanks.
My significant other claims its a Republican plot! They are much better organized, after all.
ReplyDeleteIt couldn't be timed any better for Tiny, but, you know what? Misery is does not follow the U.S. election calendar.
ReplyDeleteThe story line that makes it all about Trump is just another con the mighty media have fallen for and will have to apologize for if the nightmare ever ends.
This morning a bright guy who isn't always politically articulate said the caravan was making him sick. Someone else thought he heard a kindred spirit and jumped in with the whole Fox line, up to and including sealing the border, shooting to kill and building the law. To which the innocent replied that he was sick that all of those people are suffering and have to go through what they do while we don't do anything to help them.
Leviticus 19:34 hangs over everything like a cloud.
We've tried. FDR had the "Good Neighbor Policy," JFK had the "Alliance for Progress," and so on. The name changes, but the policy is to throw money at problem countries and hope the colonels don't steal all of it. I guess that doesn't work. But I don't know what else to do. I do know that people will suffer whether Tiny can stir their suffering into a red wave or not. He will make their misery worse, but they -- not insignificant he -- are the story. Umm, btw, the North Africa-to-Europe flow hasn't stopped; folks over there don't have solutions, either.
"building the wall." Our current administration is not interested in the law.
DeleteAw, I should have read my man Pierce before writing. Could have saved myself many words. Pierce takes off on the New York Times for covering a far-off group of people as if it's Behghazi Time again. A sample:
ReplyDelete"The Times rewarded the Republican hysteria-mongering with those front-page stories. Yet next to one of the stories, there's another Times story essentially admitting that it's a scam: "Trump Escalates Use of Migrants as Election Ploy." So why, exactly, is this on the front page day after day? If you know it's a brazen political ploy—which, by the way, appeals explicitly to racism and xenophobia and fear using lies—why do you aid and abet the propaganda effort simultaneously? Why is CNN covering it constantly, even if Brian Stelter proudly explains some coverage features a map showing just how far away the caravan is from this country? It's not that it shouldn't be covered at all, or that outlets aren't covering anything else. It's just mindlessly treated as The Most Important Thing Right Now.
The whole thing:
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a24164296/caravan-coverage-media-fail-donald-trump-republicans/
Anyhow, it is about to go away because (my man also tells me) the crazies like Limbaugh have decided that bombs sent to George Soros, Hilary Clinton, CNN and even Debbie Wasserman Schultz are a DEMOCRAT false flag operation. Stand by for more charges, less evidence.
Tom, I just read about the bomb attempts. Yikes!
DeleteJust discussing an hour ago with my neighbor the NYTimes front page...like yesterday's (or was it inside?).
ReplyDeleteNYTimes' Befuddled liberals now think that pictures and news are actual policy proposals that will solve the problem. There must be something in the water coolers--or it's a kind of hand wringing. When the Republicans keep the House they can return to WH leaks and ear twisting (I notice Maggie Haberman has been quiet of late).
Even little VOX managed to get up a better story than anything the MSM is doing.
Thanks for the Vox article, Margaret. It is the best one I've seen so far that sums up the situation.
ReplyDeleteA new development is that Mexico is enlisting the aid of the UN to help sort out the situation. And this reportedly has the support of the US.
Mexico's president elect Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador has a suggestion that "...the United States, Canada and Mexico jointly tackle migration by agreeing to invest in development." "Lopez Obrador made the comment Sunday as thousands of Honduran migrants streamed through southern Mexico hoping to reach the United States...in the president-elect's words: "He who leaves his town does not leave for pleasure but out of necessity."
What a concept, that we should work together for solutions. Unfortunately it seems likely to fall on Trump's deaf ears.
I think it is a little amusing that the Trumpistas are clutching their pearls over the caravan being an invading horde about to cross our borders when they are still 1000 miles away. I estimate that traveling on foot, with children and families, the caravan is likely to advance about 4 miles a day, if they're lucky.
ReplyDeleteBut it sure is getting the base riled up. Any more energized and they'd need some haloperidol in their drinking water.
Many thanks, Peggy, it is a fine report.
ReplyDeleteThe notion of a caravan of refugees/migrants/asylum seekers seems like an important development in the story of the movement of peoples. I wonder if it could be a game-changer. At the very least, it's going to challenge the border patrols (of multiple countries) to adopt different counter-tactics. Seems pepper spray didn't work at the Guatamala/Mexico crossing.
Jim for your next sermon, think EXODUS.
DeleteAnd then, move on to San Juan Compestela.
Oh, a great game changer. The game has been going on for many years without changing, and the clueless White House isn't going to change that. Here is the SOP, right out of the rules and regs: If pepper spray doesn't work, escalate to "shoot to wound." Yeah, we will probably do it if our fat leader feels threatened. But shooting still won't stop people from banging on the door, since they can go home and get shot just the same.
DeleteIt is a turning point that people have turned away from paying thousands of dollars to the "coyotes" and risking the journey alone, and are finding strength in numbers and solidarity.
DeleteInteresting point, Katherine. I wonder if the former leader of the free world who thinks he works so well with Kim Jung Un, Vladimir Putin and Muhammed bin Salman might be able to make a deal with the Coyotes to put them back in business in return for them holding down the numbers to manageable levels.
DeletePeggy, yep, already had been pondering the Exodus similarities. Come to think of it, the Hebrews weren't exactly welcomed with open arms, either: they wandered the desert for 40 years, being harassed and attacked by other tribes/nations the whole time, and then had to fight their way into the land of milk and honey.
DeleteRefugees are the people nobody wants. I may have to go turn in my conservative card, because I feel stirrings of compassion for them.
Compassion is okay, Jim...
DeleteAnother Exodus-inspired thought (well, several degrees removed from Exodus): it occurred to me that, if Trump had his wall, then the caravan could be massed up against his wall, beseeching the US government to let them in. And armed National Guardsmen could be patrolling along the top of the wall (I guess I'm mentally picturing it like the Great Wall of China, which I suppose is not what Trump's wall actually will look like ... probably less stone work and a lot more barbed wire.
DeleteAt any rate - that image of a large group of people standing at a wall, being kept out at gunpoint, that has been playing out in real life for the last year or two in Israel with the Palestinians, some of whom really have been shot. Shooting at migrants isn't far-fetched. I hope it doesn't take any martyrs to give Americans a sense of urgency to do something about immigration and the conditions that spur immigration.
.. or, back to biblical times, this time not Exodus but Joshua: the caravan blew the trumpets and gave a shout, and the walls came a-tumblin' down, and the caravan's army stormed Jericho and took it. (And then destroyed every living thing in it - men, women, cattle, sheep, donkeys. I guess that is Trump supporters' worst nightmare.)
DeleteSay, now, what about these pipe bombs? Waiting to hear that is also a Democratic conspiracy, too.
ReplyDeleteOh, they're totally saying that already.
DeleteYeah, my brother just sent me the fringe right news down his way in Oklahoma where it's conspiracies and prosperity gospel 24/7.
DeleteI think the prez has been sticking to his talking points on this one. But it's still early.
DeleteAre the pipe bombs a threat or a stunt? Changing the subject?
DeleteWacky conspiracy theory: the Rs hired an unhinged and broke crazy leftist anarchist to send the bombs, so he can get busted and they can say, "See? we told you they were an unhinged mob. Vote for the party of sanity."
DeleteI don't have a link for that. I made it up.
Rush Limbaugh, a mainstream rightwing whacky with a compound on Palm Beach, was already blaming the Ds yesterday afternoon. Read it on Media Matters, and weep. (H/t Charles P. Pierce)
Deletettps://www.mediamatters.org/video/2018/10/24/rush-limbaugh-suggests-bombs-mailed-democrats-are-false-flag-republicans-just-dont-do-kind-thing/221822
Seems they've arrested someone in Florida. Who he is, and whether he is actually the guy, still not clear.
DeleteFlorida Man arrested as bomber.
DeleteYeah, it is always Florida Man. When he isn't standing his ground, he is hand-feeding alligators. This one had a van plastered with pro-Trump stickers and conspiracy posters. Nobody paid attention because he kept in Florida.
The NY Times account of how this all came together does make sense ... I don't suppose a caravan just spontaneously comes into being, someone or someones had to organize it.
ReplyDeletePerhaps, in the White Nationalist memory, is what happened to Mexico when white Americans moved into Texas. Eventually, the slave-owning Americans clashed with the Mexico which had outlawed slavery. Then there's the earlier and later displacement of the indians by white migration. Maybe there's a guilt/fear thing going on here and the Trumpster is tapping in.
ReplyDeletePeggy Steinfels asked, what do I make of all this? I haven't been able to follow it closely. This article, which I haven't yet read, has been recommended:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.thedailybeast.com/forget-trump-hysteria-heres-how-the-migrant-caravan-crisis-really-began
You can find a lot more information here:
ReplyDeletehttp://latinamericadailybriefing.blogspot.com/
Thanks Gene for both links....
DeleteAnother friend just now sent another link. Again, I haven't read this yet:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-garcia-migrant-caravan-border-arrests-20181024-story.html .
Hi. Unagidon here. Sorry to have been away.
ReplyDeleteI see several things going on with the Caravan thing.
The first is the way that the Right discusses it and the illegal alien issue. They take something, declare it an issue, declare a solution, and then if people don't support their particular "solution" they are accused of not believing in the issue. And when that happens, the Right is then free to start talking about what Left "really" believes (like uncontrolled immigration, totally open borders, love of M-13, Soros is paying for the caravan to mock Trump, etc. etc.) The frosting on the cake is that the Right can then speculate in all sorts of ways why the Left really supports these strawmen ideas. The main one here is that illegals vote "Democrat" etc. The problem with all of this is that the arguments are constructed so as not to even address the other side. The arguments are self contained. If one attempts to address one of these people and tell them that their basic assumptions are wrong, the response is to simply restate their assumptions and claim that the Left always argues in bad faith.
So in this sense, there is no possibility of engagement.
The second thing is that the types of arguing going on about the caravan don't even begin to address the problem of illegal immigration as such. This is ironic. Real conservatives (as opposed to the neo-liberal infused fake "conservatives" that dominate the discussion today) could point out that, for example, illegal immigration is a labor supply and demand issue; that hundreds of thousands of Americans are illegally hiring them with very little threat from the law. (If this was like the drug trade, it would be like arresting the users while rewarding the pushers). Or conservatives, who seem to now opposed NAFTA, would note that if NAFTA screwed Americans on our side of the border it also screwed Americans on their side of the border as well. And probably worse than we got screwed, since what we lost were certain kinds of jobs while what they lost was a whole system of subsistence production. We lost good jobs and had to go to bad jobs. They lost bad jobs and had to go to no jobs. (I will leave aside other considerations of the issue, which supposedly business minded conservatives might have considered in the past, like looking at all of the roots of a problem before devising solutions).
I suspect (if you will indulge me in a little conspiratorial thinking here) that what the issue and especially the wall represents is a creation of a non-solution that poses as a solution and becomes the line in the sand for one or both sides, not to solve a problem but to extend it. Our best modern parallel is Roe v Wade. It becomes a pseudo-solution that will never actually be executed and if executed would never solve the problem. But it can be fought over interminably and be used to organize and keep in line political forces that then are used to promote other unrelated policies.
Good analysis! Glad you are back.
Delete"The first is the way that the Right discusses it and the illegal alien issue. They take something, declare it an issue, declare a solution, and then if people don't support their particular "solution" they are accused of not believing in the issue. And when that happens, the Right is then free to start talking about what Left "really" believes ... "
Voter fraud seems to be another such manufactured issue.
The caravan is not invented out of whole cloth. It is real. One can scarcely criticize Republicans for talking about reality. We should applaud anything that keeps them anchored in reality.
DeleteSimilarly, Democrats are being instructed, during the waning days of this election cycle, to talk about health care. If that's what they want to talk about, I don't know why anyone would object.
For whatever it's worth, in my view the possibility that the caravan will eventually arrive at the US/Mexico border is somewhat greater than the possibility that a Republican Congress will do anything substantial about health care, so I'd argue that talk of the caravan is *more* anchored in reality than, say, talk that coverage for pre-existing conditions is going to evaporate. But it's a political season, so we should expect political rhetoric.
Jim, I don't deny that the caravan is real or that it couldn't cause problems. It's the way some Republicans talk about immigration that I find problematic.
DeleteTrump talks about non-caucasian immigrants in offensive ethnic terms. He appeals to those who want to see the U.S. retain its WASP identity. It's repugnant but not new. Benjamin Franklin wrote critical essays about all the German speakers in Pennsylvania more than 200 years ago. It's a reactionary response whenever it surfaces.
Other Republicans claim that immigrants, legal or otherwise, are stressing social safety nets and educational systems, or are taking jobs away from Americans. Evidence is skimpy, and "immigrants" in this context usually means Latinos. This argument also never considers where immigrant families are a generation of two later; is it possible that in 50 years a struggling immigrant family turns into one that is essentially paying back with interest whatever their parents or grandparents took out of the system?
Still other Republicans talk about immigration in terms of a porous and disorderly border with Mexico that makes smuggling contraband and people easier. I am happy to entertain ideas that would address this problem.
Now, please excuse me. I need to go call up the DNC for more instructions for talking about health care.
U good to have you back.
DeleteYes, very good to hear from you, unagidon. I don't think I knew your name (if that IS your real name ... :-))
DeleteJim, that the caravan is "real" would be a data point for discussion if only. But this morning I heard from FoxFan One that it is expected to reach 70,000 and to "swamp our border" on election day. And he fervently believes it is assembled and paid for by George Soros. So you start from a real data point with FoxFans and end up arguing that it would not have been a good thing had Soros been blown up by Florida Man. It may start with whole cloth, but it ends up tattered polyester before the discussion gets very far.
Delete(I said, btw, that the long bridge at San Diego would funnel the 70,000 into orderly lines, so our snipers can pick them off one by one. He said they are too clever to use the bridge. Why do I try?)
They should go directly to Mexico Beach, FL. They need a lot of cheap labor to clean up the global warming exacerbated destruction. And a little faraway piece of the US, the Mariana Islands, just got flattened by a Cat 5. And they can help rebuild Tyndall AF base and look for pieces of the possible 17 F-22 Stealth Fighters that were destroyed at $300M apiece. So let's pretend the Central American immigrants don't exist and they can clean up the destruction from something that the Buffoon-in-Chief pretends doesn't exist.
DeleteThe US has 3X the area of India and 1/3 the population. If people were gas molecules, one would expect an influx until equilibrium is reached. I can understand the problem Europeans have with immigrants. That lifeboat is full. But the US should accept immigrants because we can. The only question is at what rate? And what the heck is the problem with Hispanics? Most are Catholic as I am and seem to be generally nice to boot.
ReplyDelete"If people were gas molecules ..." Geez, I see an awful lot of people emitting a lot of nasty gas in the public forums these days. Just sayin'
DeleteThe ever-changing influx of new types of people into the U.S. has always caused concern, vapors, fainting spells, anxiety, anger, and cross-burnings, especially at times when "they" seem poised to outnumber the "white people."
The Hispanic families in our parish have increased, so we have La Virgen de Guadalupe and her candles on one side of the church and Our Lady of Czestochowa on the other.
Many of our Hispanic parishioners also attend Cristo Rey in Lansing occasionally. Even though our parish was founded as an "ethnic" Czech parish, Cristo Rey attendance seems to offend people as a sign that the Hispanic families aren't doing their best to assimilate.
Everybody's first language, regardless of ethnic origin, is now English. So, yeah, it all seems very ironic to me, too.
I can't help but picture the irreverent image of Our Ladies of Guadalupe and Czestochowa in a wrestling match. Well, I guess I know which one I'd be rooting for. My maternal grandparents came from around Jasna Gora.
DeleteYeah, Guadalupe delivers a stunning blow with her multicolored aura, while Czestochowa counters with that sour sidelong glance.
DeleteI guess you could tag team them with Our Lady of Fatima, who could blind them with her light, and Our Lady of Knock, using her spikey crown as a weapon.
The problem is that THEY ARE THE SAME PERSON. Don't get me started ...
Jean, LOL, same person, yes! You are on the same wavelength as my husband. I guess my take-away thought on the multitudinous ways that Mary appears is that when you're the queen of heaven you get to wear whatever look you want. I've never heard anyone get on her case for cultural appropriation.
DeleteThis is a case of different strokes. Most of those apparitions turn me off, and I try not to think about them. (A priest I respect used to help out at Lourdes when he was in the seminary, and he says he saw things he had never expected to believe in. So I cut Lourdes a little slack.) But Guadalupe speaks to me very personally. Sorry.
DeleteMy apologies, Tom. I do think it's interesting how Catholics gravitate to different stories and images.
DeleteMy husband found me a gray-haired Madonna when I was pregnant the second time (at 40 with gray hair). If you looked at her from one angle, she was smiling, from another, she looked grief-stricken. The third pregnancy resulted in The Boy. At age 5, he knocked her off the shelf and chipped her veil. I sent her to live with a friend who was praying for her pregnant daughter in law. Told her to send her on to someone else when Evan out a new chip in her veil.
Wonder where she is now.
Tom, why sorry? Guadalupe speaks to me as well. So does Knock. Lourdes sorta does. Medjugorie (not sure of the spelling) doesn't at all. But I know a priest who says that's where he first felt his call to his vocation.
DeleteBut Im a heretic for sure for what I think of Fatima.
Jean, a couple of weeks ago we were talking about traveling statues. Sounds like yours has made the rounds!
DeleteOne of my all time favorite books is Awareness by Anthony De Mello, SJ. He was from India. I re-read it once every three or four years, as I learn new things each time - because I slowly become more "aware" as I get older.
DeleteGOOD RELIGION -THE ANTITHESIS OF UNAWARENESS
22
Somebody came up to me once during a conference and asked, "What about 'Our Lady of Fatima'"? What do you think of her? When I am asked questions like that, I am reminded of the story of the time they were taking the statue of Our Lady of Fatima on an airplane to a pilgrimage for worship, and as they were flying over the South of France the plane began to wobble and to shake and it looked like it was going to come apart. And the miraculous statue cried out, "Our Lady of Lourdes, pray for us!" And all was well. Wasn't it wonderful, one "Our Lady" helping another "Our Lady"?
There was also a group of a thousand people who went on a pilgrimage to Mexico City to venerate the shrine of Our Lady of Guadalupe and sat down before the statue in protest because the Bishop of the Diocese had declared "Our Lady of Lourdes" patroness of the diocese! They were sure that Our Lady of Guadalupe felt this very much, so they were doing the protest in REPARATION for the offense. That's the trouble with religion, if you don't watch out.
I write this from the bleachers of a college football stadium. The halftime show just ended. Today is Homecoming at this particular school, and as part of the festivities, an Alumni Marching Band joined the school marching band on the field. Do there were something like 500 musicians out there. Their selection? The jazz classic "Caravan". Whether it was intentionally topical, I don't know, but I don't underestimate the slyness of music directors.
ReplyDeleteGiven that this is the middle of Iowa, I suppose the hypothetical commentary could be running in the conservative direction ...
Well Jim.... Marchons! Marchons!
DeleteRalph Marterie. The only time his band had that sound, and the only big hit his band had. I always thought of it as a lead (the metal) guitar.
DeleteI had known it as a Dizzy Gillespie signature piece from ca. 1960. But a quick check of Wikipedia reveals that the song goes back to the 1930s and was a Duke Ellington composition (or co-composition, with Juan Tizol).
DeleteHere is a version played by Dizzy and the great Oscar Peterson from the 1970s. Seatbelts definitely required for OP's solo, around the 3:00 mark. Diz's playing is pretty damn advanced, but Peterson couldn't help playing at a different level than everyone else, including his collaborators.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiTfwcXcPsM