I have been very busy with many things to post or
comment. Liked Katherine’s beautiful
picture and interesting ideas, then everybody begin talking about deer killing which
is interesting but another topic all together.
After the break I will give you some thoughts in the hope
that it will start a conversation here, and if that succeeds you might want to
move some of your comments over here, and allow myself and perhaps others who might have gone in other directions on the SPIRITUALITY OF FALL not to be lost in a herd of deer. Hunting is an important part of Fall but there is much more. We want to keep that and maybe even elaborate on it but killing is another issue.
SOME HISTORICAL AND EVOLUTIONARY PERSPECTIVES
1. Deer were designed by evolution to be killed by
predators. Around our part of the country their population is way out of
control because they no longer have any predators. Their natural death is not
by old age but by predation. (We are not doing them a favor by letting them
die of old age and disease). We are structuring the environment so they have no
predators. We should either bring back predators or assume our role as the last
remaining predator.
2. We were hunters for a large part of our existence. That
is why we have to walk and run to keep fit; that is why hunting and fishing are
so enjoyable. We enjoyed predation in order to survive. Yes we also subsisted
on vegetable protein but animal protein was an important part of evolution and
our history.
3. Animal sacrifice was a major part of world religions
because animal protein was a precious resource. It was the center of Temple Judaism. Yes there were
vegetable sacrifices. Yes, Christianity has replaced animal sacrifice with the
sacrifice of bread and wine. But lets not forget where we came from both as
human beings and as religious beings.
4. My extremely superficial knowledge of Native American
spirituality understands that killing took place within a spirituality that
respected nature and animals. Katherine, your narrative about the hunter and
the fisherman suggests that they had experiences like those that led to Native
American spirituality.
5. Maybe a new vision of hunting and fishing might be
constructed in such a way as to undermine the IRA lobby. Think creatively about
that. My parents never ate their fish. We
did eat the rabbits, pheasants, and the deer. They put the fish back or gave
them to those who fished next to them. Some poor folks from Cleveland who happened to be fishing next to them were very happy. How about
hunting and fishing for the poor!
Jack, I think you are right about hunting being a part of Native American spirituality. The Gralloch Prayer I mentioned on the previous thread is a similar thing, though it believe it was Scots Gaelic in origin.
ReplyDeleteKatherine, my primary interest is in spirituality. The post was great. Wish I had read it in time and been able to make my comment about Native American spirituality. It might have held off the herd of deer.
DeleteSaying that things are the way they are because of evolution doesn't say anything about whether those things are good in themselves. All that says is that we have traits that enabled our species to survive. Other gifts of evolution are out-group hatred, rape, infidelity, etc. We have chosen to try to curb those tendencies because we aren't still living in paleo world, and we can do the same with hunting.
ReplyDeleteThe thing about the prayer is that it's pretty self-serving.
I agree that it's self serving. But also recognizes that the animal's life was taken from it; that the hunter owes it *something*, maybe working to preserve the species' habitat? Also it recognizes that hunter and hunted both were created by God.
DeleteGOD is the God of chaos as well as the God of order who creates in the dimension of time (among others).
DeleteThink Genesis and the Spirit hovering over the waters of chaos, not only then by throughout time.
Oh I will say a lot about this in the future when I have more time and I can think it out.
DeleteThere is a great tradition that God teaches us according to ability which improves over time. We all begin as children.
Imagine powerful aliens attack and conquer the earth. They hunt us down and kill and eat us. Would the fact they first said a prayer of thanksgiving to the God who created the universe make it ok?
ReplyDeleteTo my cats, I presume I am something of an alien with the power to scoop them out of their feral state, alter their genitalia, make them live indoors for much of their lives, possibly with strange cats who are not their litter mates and around whom they will feel perpetually uneasy. I will prevent them from predating on birds and rodents, or from becoming the prey of hawks, thus taking them out of their natural place in the food chain. When they are let out for a run in the yard, they usually end up jumping back in the lawn chair with me. Stockholm syndrome? And, when they become sick, I, the all-powerful alien, will decide when and how they die and what happens to their bodies.
ReplyDeletePut that way, all our relations with animals, no matter how benign, sound terrible.
Humans are omnivores. Meat has been a part of the diet of most human cultures. We are part of the food chain. I see nothing wrong in hunting or in eating meat. It was not some weird testosterone-fueled rite of passage in our family. Most years nobody shot anything because they refused to get doe licenses. But hunting--whether you shot or not--was an activity that heightened the senses and made you pay attention to your surroundings. You saw things in nature that you would not otherwise have seen.
I DO see a lot wrong with the way animals are treated and slaughtered in intensive livestock operations. I often feel that PETA and other animal advocates lose the opportunity to make real gains there by insisting that everyone abstain from meat, fur, leather, eggs, dairy, etc. I also think that removing us from our symbiotic relationship with animals for companionship and food makes us less appreciative of animal life and, probably, worse people.
Are we really to believe the Old Testament when it tells us how much God loved animal sacrifices? Take Genesis 8:
ReplyDeleteThen Noah built an altar to the LORD, and choosing from every clean animal and every clean bird, he offered burnt offerings on the altar. When the LORD smelled the sweet odor, the LORD said to himself: Never again will I curse the ground because of human beings, . . .
If something like this were done in a house of worship of some non-mainstream religion, everyone would be horrified and would attempt to have it shut down. And yet if animal sacrifices were demanded by God in the Old Testament, how can it be claimed that they are barbaric and disgusting?
Well, then we have Hosea 6:6 "For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than holocaust."
DeleteAnd Isaiah 1:11-19 "To what purpose do you offer me the multitude of you victims, saith the Lord. I desire not holocausts of rams, the blood of fatlings...when you came to appear before me, who required these things at your hands?"
And then there is Psalm 51: "For in sacrifice you take no delight, burnt offering from me you would refuse, my sacrifice, a contrite spirit. A humbled, contrite heart you will not spurn."
What do these verses of Scripture prove? That people's understanding of God evolved over time, that they were on a journey. That we are still on a journey.
"If something like this were done in a house of worship of some non-mainstream religion, everyone would be horrified and would attempt to have it shut down."
DeleteWell, in the words of a former mayor of Miami whose campaign expenses included $300 for a Santaria priest and a smaller amount for a chicken, "That chicken was alive when I left."
I had to get that in before agreeing with Katherine that the notion of worship clearly changes as the Bible goes along.
Yeah, Santaria still sacrificing animals in the US. I'm sure Trump, who cares so much about religious freedom, will allow them to keep their exemption.
DeleteThere are still religious practices that are hard on animals, like the way animals are ritually killed for eating by Jews and Muslims - in some European countries kosher meat is imported because the way animals are slaughtered to get it is seen as cruel.
ReplyDeleteGuess I'll have to make one of my famous lentil loaves this week. Famous for bleah.
ReplyDeleteHey, the lentil loaf would help towards saving the environment :) 10 ways vegetarianism can help save the planet
ReplyDeleteEach time I eat one I made, it's 500 years less in Purgatory. When I ate at the historic City Tavern in Philadelphia, I ordered a tofu dinner. Delicious. Surprisingly, Ben Frankin's Revolutionary Era recipe.
ReplyDeleteI've had good tofu. But I don't take pleasure in it.
ReplyDeleteI don't like tofu - the texture is kind of creepy. I guess a lot of vegans and vegetarians eat meat-replacement foods like that, but I don't use any of them.
ReplyDeleteThe only cheese replacement that makes it for me is the pseudo-parmesan. I had a pseudo-meat Philly cheesesteak at the Reading Terminal Market. It was great. I think it's the mushrooms that made it. I enjoy a Portobello mushroom on a bun but it still needs cheese.
ReplyDeleteI could maybe be a vegetarian if I didn't have to be a vegan. I like eggs and dairy too much.
DeleteOne of my sons was lactose intolerant when he was little and I was able to find some decent non-dairy mozerella to make pizza with. We got some funny looks though if we went out for pizza and I told them "Hold the cheese."
My sister is a vegan and has given up dairy products but I haven't (yet). Pizza! :)
ReplyDelete