Sunday, November 23, 2025
Orthodoxy in America
is attracting new members, especially young, conservative men. I would be interested in Jack's take on this story in the NYT.
I have attended many services with my Greek friend. I have found some asoects of Orthodox theology to be more in line with my thinking than RC theology, but also that some aspects of Orthodoxy are as bad as or worse than in the RC, such as in its treatment of women. The attraction to young men apparently includes its approach to male and female roles, saying Orthodoxy "affirms their masculinity". I wonder how they define " masculinity"?
The conservative young seem to be taking over the the RC, and Orthodox churches as well.
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/11/19/us/orthodox-christianity.html?unlocked_article_code=1.3U8.5h3e.uwLkLhTzY8ZO&smid=nytcore-ios-share
I was struck by this, "...The Orthodox Church is the only church that really coaches men hard, and says, ‘This is what you need to do,’”....He beamed as he talked about the weekly worship service known as the Divine Liturgy, an hourslong affair at which attendees typically stand the entire time, rather than sitting in the pews or kneeling."
ReplyDeleteApparently the young men want a marine boot camp experience, the article also talked about rigorous fasting.
Some of my late brother in law Tom's family were Syrian Orthodox (they were of Lebanese background, but their church was called Syrian Orthodox) I got the idea that some of what the article describes would have been optional. Tom said most people didn't attend the whole service, mostly the old people. The others came in for the last hour or so. You could kind of be as rigorous as you wanted to be, and most people didn't want to be *that* rigorous. Maybe the Orthodox have kind of a "rad trad" group too.
Orthodoxy is more rigorous than Catholicism. Their services are much longer, and their fasts are far more rigorous even than our pre-Vatican II fasts.
ReplyDeleteBut they are less legalistic than Catholicism. People regularly come late to Vespers and Divine Liturgy. They do not sneak into the back pew but come right up front to kiss the icon of the day that stands at the foot of the icon screen.
While priests encourage people to bring their young children to liturgies, and even to sit them right up front where they can see everything, they also understand that families may need to come in late and leave early.
Similar things in regard to all the fasting. People are encouraged to observe the strict fast but those with health problems mitigate the fast.
I think the "radical traditionalist" phenomena in Orthodoxy like in Catholicism is mostly an online phenomena. I think there are probably fewer radical traditionalist priests in the Orthodox Churches than in Catholic ones. Orthodox priests pretty much do what has been done traditionally in their parishes. If they deviate very far they are likely to hear from their parish members, fellow priests in their deanery, and the bishop who has far less priests to supervise.
We have a new young pastor who regularly consults with other priests and most of all with the bishop before implementing anything different even though in many cases that new thing has a great deal of tradition behind it.
The small Orthodox Church nearby probably has a many converts per year as our large Catholic parishes nearby. The difference is that most Catholic converts are due to marriage, most Orthodox converts occur because anyone they are very welcoming. From the first day I went to our local Orthodox parish I have always felt as a guest of honor. They may not admit me to communion but several people will usually bring me bless bread and wine after communion.
I don't understand the distinction between "rigorous" and "legalistic."
DeleteI guess I think of all religions as making certain demands on behavior that prove you love God--go to these services, give this much money, fast on these days, receive these sacraments at prescribed intervals, take your kids to these RE programs, participate in these prep classes as applicable, refrain from this list of sins, etc.
Would you say Orthodoxy is more or less demanding than Catholicism?
I know nothing much about the Orthodox churches. I do think that alpha-male Christian schtick tends to reflect current secular American culture more than anything else. It started with evangelicals a couple decades ago complaining about "feminization" of worship spaces (too many pastels, flowers, and tinkly music) and expanding into more rules about the proper role of women in the Church and home. Once in a while our school district Web site features complaints from evangelical parents from complaining that some assignment is suppressing their boys' "masculine energy." Some guy pulled his boy out of school cuz the kids were asked to sing a song called "I'm a Lady Bug."
ReplyDelete"I do think that alpha-male Christian schtick tends to reflect current secular American culture more than anything else"
DeleteI think you are right about that, Jean.
I am always puzzled when I read about the so called feminization of the church. I mean, we are talking about an institution where all the key leadership positions are held by men.
If you ask Raber's Baptist brother, the Church should reflect the fact that men are in charge, from the architecture to interior design to praise music, etc. Have only been to his church a couple times. It's heavy on the wood paneling and maroon carpeting, basically cigar lounge aesthetic. There is also a women's meeting room and library lounge.
Delete“ I am always puzzled when I read about the so called feminization of the church. I mean, we are talking about an institution where all the key leadership positions are held by men.”.
DeleteYup. When Catholics complain online that the church shouldn’t ordain women because look at the ECUSA and the loss of membership, they seem to ignore the reality that the RCC has lost more in both total numbers AND as a percentage of the born Catholic population than any other denomination. It seems that having an all- male priesthood hasn't stopped the bleeding. First in Europe, where Catholicism is pretty much dead except as a cultural identity marker, and now in the US and Canada. Latin America is losing Catholics by the trainload also, but it seems for somewhat different reasons, perhaps related to the eurocentricity of the church.
The Catholic Church is now losing more women than men for the first time ever. Its in- church marriage rate is through the floor, as are baptism rates, both infant and adult. The most recent figures are something like nine leave the RCC for every new adult member. James Martin (or maybe Reese) mentioned the latest numbers recently. I don’t remember which, or the exact numbers, but they keep getting worse. The all male priesthood is obviously not an answer to the decline in the church. I have no idea what would bring people back or keep them in the pews.
I don't really think male leadership (or not) has much to do with it. I remember a saying, "God has no grandchildren." People need a personal reason, an encounter with Christ. But others can't orchestrate that for them. What they can do is, not be an obstacle to grace. They can try to facilitate an atmosphere where people can encounter Christ and the Trinity. But in the end it is the mysterious action of God in the soul.
DeleteI disagree with some church friends who think we need more people greeting people at the door, maybe ringing some doorbells. Having more fellowship after Mass. More get togethers. And have I ever heard of Alpha? (Yeah, I have. Not doing it).
Am willing to throw in the towel? No, I still think Jesus meant it when he gave the Great Commission. I just don't think we have to turn into Evangelicals.
Katherine, lots there I agree with. The local parish has That Man Is You for men and She Shall Be Called Woman for women. Last I heard they were starting a Missionaries to the Family program for couples, which prepares couples to provide outreach to families. Canned programs have less to do with helping people move deeper into God's grace despite all their baggage than just trying to get people to fit some type of ideal. Where's the program for bitchy and broke old ladies with end-stage cancer? Gotta make that up on your own ...
DeleteI don’t know if it’s possible to determine what brings people to church and what drives them away. It’s too individual. But when a lot of people engage in a behavior it is a trend that is interesting. In the last dozen years I’ve read a lot about this, but don’t know who is “ right”. Among the more interesting books were Harvey Cox’s “ The Future of Faith”, “ Christianity after Religion” by Diana Butler Bass, and Phyllis Tickle’s “The Great Emergence”. There seems to be a relationship on the national level to educational achievement and wealth in nations. Christianity is spreading fast in poor countries with lower levels of education. It’s slowly disappearing in rich nations with a large percentage of the population who are fairly well educated. Tribalism is a factor ( seen especially in the national Orthodox churches) but is also diminishing in many countries, especially in the more economically advanced countries. It’s all very interesting.
DeleteI can’t sell people on “gay’s are uniquely screwed up” (we all are), every act of intercourse has to be open to conception, women have to stay on the back bench in church matters. I’m Catholic the way I am. People know I’m Catholic and that it’s central to me. They also know that I am a person often in wonder at being when the actions of people aren’t making me wish I was never born. Hopefully, I’m less of an asshole for it. Knowing I’m a Christian makes me want to avoid being an asshole and misrepresenting Christ. I know I’m called to be a much better person than I’ve ever been. That’s the extent of my proselytizing.
DeleteSome of you might be interested in Bill McKibbin's recent Guardian article, about the American evangelical movement and it's perversion of American Christianity.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2025/nov/23/america-christian-evangelical-discrimination-immigration
He points to Catholicism (the Church worldwide, not American Catholicism) as a corrective to MAGA Jesus (snip):
If you had suggested a generation ago that the Roman church might become one of the planet’s more progressive large institutions, I would have giggled. But Pope Francis made clear that abortion was not the only issue that counted, insisting that the church focus on the poor. His remarkable encyclical, Laudato Si’, usually described as “about global warming”, was actually much broader, a scathing critique of modernity and the politics of division and exploitation. He followed up, in the last year of his life, by firmly correcting new convert JD Vance, who argued that Augustine preferred that people center their compassion on family and neighbors. Francis schooled him on the saint, explaining that “Christian love is not a concentric expansion of interests that little by little extend to other persons and groups” and urging him to meditate on the parable of the good Samaritan.
That was an interesting article. It kind of mirrors what happened in my hometown. When I was growing up the two dominant churches were the Methodist and the Congregational. The movers and shakers and *city fathers* belonged to those. The Catholics were about 20% of the population, and the Lutherans were a little less than that. There were a few other very small churches. Now there is an evangelical "megachurch" congregation that is by far the largest in town. The Methodists and Congregationals are a shadow of their former selves. The PTB are mostly evangelical. The Catholics and Lutherans have maintained their numbers, about the same as they always were. I never got the idea that the Protestants, other than the Lutherans, cared very much about theology. I think that is still the case.
DeleteI don't know what you mean by Protestants not caring about theology, I guess.
DeleteI should clarify that I meant the Protestants in my hometown, not Protestants in general. The Evangelical megachurch seems to serve the same purpose that the Methodist and Congregational ones used to. I think the ones remaining in those denominations are probably more committed to then than the ones who went over to the Evangelical church.
DeleteThe Methodists locally have been a going concern for 125 years. They absorbed the Presbyterians decades ago, and do a lot with the homeless, elderly, and the domestic violence shelter. There are two very large Congregational churches nearby, where, as a former Unitarian, I feel at home. One of the ministers is very brainy, and I enjoy his sermons on YouTube. Six Lutheran churches in a 10 mile radius, two with schools, both Wisconsin and Missouri affiliates. Lotta Germans here.
DeleteChurch/ synagogue inventory within 5 miles of our house - 5 Orthodox (Greek, Syrian, Antiochan, Russian, Serbian), 6 synagogues, 3 RC, 3 EC, 2 Lutheran, 2 Methodist, 1 Presbyterian, 1 Baptist, 1 AME, no evangelical. Closest mega church is across the river in McLean VA
DeleteAmerica magazine has a story lauding “ praise” music.The man practically wrote a dissertation length article about it. It is not a style that appeals to me, but maybe it is the magic key to attracting folk to the pews? What do those here for whom music is central to the mass think? I don’t need music during mass and actually prefer silence to music. But most people think it’s important and fights” wars” over it.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.americamagazine.org/music/2025/11/24/praise-and-worship-catholic-church-music/
I'm not a fan of that style of "praise" music. But I'm also not a fan of the school of thought that makes fun of the "four hymn sandwich" and wants to impose more chant on us. The group I'm in does a mixture of St. Louis Jesuit type of songs, and more recent ones, and traditional hymns. I don't know, people seem to like it. It's not the style the article is talking about. The praise music sounds like an Evangelical import.
DeleteI saw that article about praise music. It's a way to (try to) get people to participate. Think of it this way: if you're driving down the street with the radio on, and a rock song you like comes on, yoy might sing along. You might even belt it out, and even bop around in your seat. You're participating, in a way, in the musical performance. N
DeleteNow imagine you're at a concert to hear your favorite band. Their band starts singing its big hit power ballad, and everyone in the audience sways back and forth, singing along. Those with a cigarette lighter flick it on,l and hold it in the air. The lead singer encourages everyone to sing along; the band may even stop singing on one the refrains, to let the audience carry the vocals for a few measures. The audience is participating.
A purist would say: that kind of participation is different than the traditional Christian congregational singing in which the organist accompanies the assembly which is raising the roof singing, "Praise to the Lord, the Almighty, the King of Creation ". In that model, the congregation *is* the performance; they are the primary music makers. In the Praise band model, the band are the primary music makers; the congregation sings along, or simply listens and enjoys it, in the same way people might listen to and enjoy a Beatles or Taylor Swift song on the radio. To be sure, I think my daughter's are incapable of hearing a Taylor Swift song without singing along.
Different modes of participating.
Praise to the Lord, the Almighty, love that one! To get a congregation to sing a hymn like that, the accompaniment needs to be loud enough, but not too loud. Timing is everything. For that one, a stately rhythm, but not dragging.
DeleteI like some Taylor Swift songs. But that style isn't worship music.
Speaking of Beatles, back in the 70s we used to use one of theirs, Let it Be, for a Marian hymn. The words actually fit. But that was before we got our consciousness raised about copyright laws, and quit running off copies of stuff in purple mimeograph ink. And had plastic folders full of pirated music.
I am only vaguely familiar with praise music. During Covid our evangelical brother in law, and a longtime friend, the only other evangelical we know, sent links to their respective churches’ streamed services, initially without the praise band. So I checked later, post Covid, for their livestreams. Praise music is really not my cup of tea. The lyrics were often repetitive and vapid, and I was very put off by the pop concert atmosphere with supersized screens, varying blue, purple, pink etc lights going up and down, and special effects like fog machines. Given a choice between the music preferred by the trads and praise music I would have to side with the trads. It’s also just a personal thing, but I really don’t like the arms waving in the air - just me I guess. Still some 1950s Catholic in my liturgical preferences. I did like some of the music of the St Louis Jesuits era.
DeleteMy favorite liturgies, including music, were those of the EC parish we attended for twelve years. I don’t know if any EC parishes have gone in the praise music, pop music concert direction. I don’t know of any around here anyway. I am not acquainted with contemporary music like Taylor Swift. I’ve heard the name but for me, pop music is the Beatles, the Stones, the Mamas and Papas, ABBA, Peter, Paul and Mary and most1960s folk! I think I’m dating myself. Definitely an old woman now!
Here's my favorite version. There wasn't any song written Ray Charles couldn't improve: https://youtu.be/eof2c5fTcI8?si=9mT8WSDJWjz_RIF5
DeleteWishing everyone here a good Thanksgiving celebration.
ReplyDeleteThanks, you, too! Don't let the MAGA cousins drive you around the bend. What's on the menu for everyone? I got:
DeleteTurkey
Dressing
Cranberry-orange relish
Sweet potato fries
Boston brown bread
Pumpkin spice cake (not a pie fan)
Ours is still becoming manifest (at my mom's house and dinner is being prepped), but believe the menu will be:
DeleteTurkey
Dressing
Mashed potatoes
Sweet potato casserole
Mac and cheese
Corn
Cranberry sauce
Crescent rolls
Three kinds of pie
That has been the list for decades, with the sweet potatoes and mac and cheese more recent additions (i.e.within the last 30 years or so).
Mac and cheese is also on the community dinner down at the VFW. The Boy said it was on the menu where he works (they have an all-day buffet for employees working the holiday). Seems to be a popular side dish now.
DeleteHope everyone had a good Thanksgiving! Our younger son and daughter in law were hosting, so we went down to Omaha yesterday. They cooked the turkey, mashed potatoes, and dressing. Our older son and daughter in law brought sides and cornbread. I took 3 pies: pumpkin, pecan, and pear berry.
DeleteThe girls did a cute relish tray with a turkey made out of a red bell pepper. They also made some crescent rolls that were supposed to look like a turkey. They didn't, but they tasted good anyway.
The granddaughter who is a senior in HS has gotten letters of acceptance from the three colleges in the state university system, including the one that has the aviation program she is interested in. She is pretty focused on scholastics and her part time job. The younger two are still doing volleyball and cheerleading squad, not quite as focused on life beyond HS yet.
A grateful Thanksgiving to everyone from Betty and myself. When people ask Betty how she is, she simply replies "grateful."
ReplyDeleteHappy Thanksgiving to all! Especially tough year for Betty, my daily gratitude list the first year after the fall, in exile in San Jose, helped me to get through. We too are very grateful. Two years ago my husband was in UCLA hospital on Thanksgiving. This year our youngest son and family came. I wish we could post photos! They did ALL the cooking. We celebrated last night because they saved $2000 on five plane tickets by returning today. Turkey, mashed potatoes, green beans with slivered almonds and goat cheese, stuffing, amazing cheeseboard ( she is French, after all) and an absolutely scrumptious homemade apple pie. My son made his specialty - sweet potato muffins with maple butter — delicious. Lots of leftovers for us! Three boys ages 8, 6 and 4 are VERY lively. I had forgotten, even though we also raised three sons, but a bit more spacing three in 6 years instead of n 4 years. The house will be very quiet. We will miss them.
ReplyDeleteWe had all our kids home for a day or two, and now our house is quiet, too. We miss them, too. Even the cats are missing them, or so we speculate.
Delete