tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post8797059919325887133..comments2024-03-28T08:00:17.624-04:00Comments on NewGathering: Mega-Sermon+Entrepreneurs = Clericalism+ConsumerismDavid Nickolhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17769931102661478298noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-74511638260433797912017-05-10T09:43:57.106-04:002017-05-10T09:43:57.106-04:00Jack, thanks for those thoughts, some of which I h...Jack, thanks for those thoughts, some of which I hadn't known. Beautiful! This reminds me of the 3:15 a.m. Vigils service at the Trappist monastery where I sometimes go for a retreat. How moving it was for me to see for the first time the monks at prayer (for us all!) in the middle of the night, many of them at it for more years than I'd been alive. They're singing, reading the scriptures and meditating then before sunrise and before most of us begin the day. What a witness to faith and fidelity they are - and so generous to allow the lay folk to be present at their community devotions. I hadn't thought about "Dawn ..(as) an expectation of Christ (coming)...". Beautiful metaphor.Carolynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11234722459095270027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-40638252909720029622017-05-10T08:33:09.472-04:002017-05-10T08:33:09.472-04:00"Nothing good after midnight"
Actually..."Nothing good after midnight" <br /><br />Actually the early Christian belief was that Christ would come again in the middle of the night!<br /><br />That is the reason behind "vigils" beginning at dusk and lasting even until dawn. The reading of all the lessons from the history of salvation! The original vigils in Jerusalem read the entire passion and resurrection Gospels!<br /><br />Early Christians (and monks)found a lot to do in the middle of the night. <br /><br />Of course it helped that they did not have electric lighting so they went to bed at 6pm in winter They could easily get up at 2am to keep vigil until dawn. Dawn was also an expectation of Christ the light who comes from the Orient. <br /><br /> Jack Rakoskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03755655685437527617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-91926655386111930792017-05-09T21:41:22.981-04:002017-05-09T21:41:22.981-04:00I agree, Katherine. My brother used to do a post-...I agree, Katherine. My brother used to do a post-midnight shift at his parish in Illinois, with all my admiration for his fidelity to that time-slot! There's probably a special sense of solace in that quiet time - for the worshiper, and maybe for Christ himself. And who knows what blessings might be flowing to someone in a lot of pain or tempted to evil? No dearth of places to direct the prayer in our imperiled world.Carolynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11234722459095270027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-62780303668170708312017-05-09T20:39:28.331-04:002017-05-09T20:39:28.331-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Katherine Nielsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08309113327087187334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-86035941908118035002017-05-09T20:04:11.366-04:002017-05-09T20:04:11.366-04:00The people I really admire are the ones who have d...The people I really admire are the ones who have done the same middle of the night hour for 18 years. I am too much of a day person for that! Our previous pastor used to say that "nothing good happened after midnight", and that the night adorers were keeping watch and praying for those who might be in desperate situations.Katherine Nielsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08309113327087187334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-69775976123979729432017-05-09T19:48:33.395-04:002017-05-09T19:48:33.395-04:00Katherine, thanks for sharing that! Perpetual Ad...Katherine, thanks for sharing that! Perpetual Adoration is a huge commitment (and blessing!) , for sure: congratulations on 18 years! It's hard for us in my parish to be sure we have "someone there" during the few hours designated for Exposition on the weekdays. (I see that in the latest parish council notes, the pastor said he wanted to "give priority to adoration"... yay to that.) It's such a great privilege, isn't it? And, yes, "very peaceful"! I wish more people knew about this and how fulfilling and powerful it is, for ourselves and the world we pray for, as well as to honor Christ, who humbly makes himself available. There for us, to be loved, loving us.... may his Church return some of that awesome, wondrous love. <br /><br />My church, named for the Blessed Sacrament, holds a procession in the neighborhood on the feast of Corpus Christi. Of course, not everyone in the neighborhood is Catholic, but there are folks who kneel as the monstrance and canopy pass by, as in my childhood. We, as first graders, carried baskets of rose petals to strew before the priest and monstrance. Even then, it impressed me to see my relatives fall to their knees in veneration. Someday in heaven, we'll probably see the pattern of how such early impressions formed us and prompted attitudes and habits that have sustained us all our lives. Sweet memories.Carolynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11234722459095270027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-71126516664871154232017-05-09T17:15:47.925-04:002017-05-09T17:15:47.925-04:00Carolyn, our parish started doing perpetual adorat...Carolyn, our parish started doing perpetual adoration 18 years ago. At first I wasn't going to commit to a weekly hour because I was "too busy". But I realized that they weren't going to be able to make it fly if a critical mass of parishioners didn't participate. It did fly, and is still flying. And I am so glad I decided to take part. It is a weekly appointment with the Lord, to pray however I wish. Sometimes people incorporate spiritual reading into their hour also. It takes place in a side chapel. It is very peaceful. Well, that is unless the cleaning committee is running the vacuum sweeper, or the grade schoolers are practicing for something. But then we have something to offer up. Katherine Nielsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08309113327087187334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-52707061092150130652017-05-09T12:22:05.524-04:002017-05-09T12:22:05.524-04:00I would add that the local parish, in my experienc...I would add that the local parish, in my experience in a number of them, does not talk much about spirituality. And I taught Catechism for ten years or so in two places, including one that was considered very "modern" and it never entered the curriculum. So some work here to do.Patrick Shannonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11952977031779999420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-83287602569374835572017-05-09T10:55:47.945-04:002017-05-09T10:55:47.945-04:00I very much appreciate the various experiences of ...I very much appreciate the various experiences of community and spiritual comradeship everyone has expressed here. I won't elaborate on points of similarity or disagreement. Just want to share one memory.<br /><br />Some years ago, when I was "between communities" and very much in need of spiritual companionship, a place to belong, I found myself at "yet one more liturgy" at a church where I couldn't "find my place". I was seated in the balcony of this large church, noting the long Communion line below and no one I knew in it, the thought came to me that it might be better to just stay home and pray there. At that moment, it seemed a shimmering, a glow, encompassed the entire place, a light I hadn't seen. Could have been my "imagination"! But, I sensed a Voice within saying, "Don't you see that something stupendous is going on here? Don't you see that the way I am present here supersedes everything else on earth, everything else in your life? Don't give up on 'this'!"<br /><br />I did not give up on church and the sacraments in that dark time, lonely time. Have since found a better sense of community and commonality in a place that's appropriate for me. But, folks, it's never perfect. There will always be shadows and incompleteness here, imperfect communion. But as we make our way Home, there is a place where we truly "touch God" supernaturally in the breaking of the bread - with the family of faith that we know and those we don't know. God is present in them and also transcending all they and we are. There is that dimension, not to be overlooked. (How poignant to see the longing for the gift of Eucharist in the divorced and remarried, about whom there has been so much discussion of late... The longing to "touch God".)<br /><br />In recent years, as well, I've been called to do something that wasn't on my "must-do" list before, which is spending significant time before the exposed Sacrament at my parish church, in intercession for a crazy world among other things. Sorry to say, this is a sparsely attended "activity" in this otherwise "on the ball" parish. It's been, it is, a profound experience for me in many ways, I've found to my surprise. "Taste and see how good the Lord is. Happy the one who takes refuge in (God)." Happy. I find myself happy now, after all the struggling and searching. Home. It's mystery!Carolynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11234722459095270027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-42349085668468453262017-05-08T21:30:14.302-04:002017-05-08T21:30:14.302-04:00That's very interesting. I think what you say ...That's very interesting. I think what you say sheds some light on RCIA. I don't expect every RCIA group has the same personality, and the leaders can't be all things to all people.<br /><br />But the tasks of RCIA--getting prior marriages sorted out, covering some basic amount of doctrinal info, explaining the liturgy, answering questions, helping people prep their kids--may push spiritual matters to the background. <br /><br />I think finding another person/people you can share spiritual insights with is valuable and rare. Think of all those saints who had intense connections with like-minded spiritual friends. <br /><br />I think the closest I've ever come to that kind of spiritual intimacy is through literature. Jeanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14702081408526023197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-5380103497801123082017-05-08T21:18:30.091-04:002017-05-08T21:18:30.091-04:00One of the rights of the Christ's faithful und...One of the rights of the Christ's faithful under the new code of Canon law is the right to their own form of spiritual life (i.e. spirituality) as long as it is in conformity with the teaching of the Church. (Canon 214).<br /><br />One of the advantages of a mega parish could be the economies of scale that permit various forms of spiritual life. Unfortunately a lot of pastors and pastoral staff try to limit the variety of spirituality supported in the parish. <br /><br />I think a lot of conflict between traditionalists and liberals in the Church is really about different spiritualities (e.g. pre-Vatican II and post Vatican II).<br /><br />Its not so much about theology (i.e. the reflection upon revealed truth) as about spirituality (the actual experience and practice of Christian faith). That has varied greatly over the centuries (e.g. the solitary life was greatly valued in early religious life, then community life (the Benedictines) then the active life of ministry (Jesuits, etc.) Jack Rakoskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03755655685437527617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-30086231840305790632017-05-08T20:55:04.765-04:002017-05-08T20:55:04.765-04:00When our parish had RENEW I hosted a group called ...When our parish had RENEW I hosted a group called RENEW for musical lovers since I have a large liturgical music collection. The people who signed up for this were people who were not particularly thrilled about "faith sharing" but liked the idea of doing if with other music lovers.<br /><br />I suspect the parish could have gotten more people if they had all sorts of groups: RENEW for gardeners, RENEW for bakers, etc. People need to have some common interests to begin being comfortable with each other.Jack Rakoskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03755655685437527617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-54771176531886929042017-05-08T20:43:00.296-04:002017-05-08T20:43:00.296-04:00Sometimes doing something is just an excuse to tal...Sometimes doing something is just an excuse to talk, especially among men. I read about one Pacific island where the men build a new boat each year. They didn't really need the boat but it gave them something to do<br /><br />I am not a golfer, but when I was young I sometimes went along with my relatives as caddy. Seemed to me it was mostly an excuse for men to take a walk and talk, all that networking stuff.Jack Rakoskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03755655685437527617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-51895255132854472262017-05-08T19:38:14.017-04:002017-05-08T19:38:14.017-04:00Kind of reminds me of what I think church services...Kind of reminds me of what I think church services for Quakers is like. I had a Quaker friend who said they would get together but there was no priest/homily or eucharsit - it was more just being together, with the occasional person sharing what they were experiencing ... http://www.quakerinfo.org/quakerism/worship<br /><br />Maybe it all depends on what the purpose of a group would be ... make friends, be closer to God, create a social network for action, or eat cake! :)crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-4415318615076276072017-05-08T19:04:57.690-04:002017-05-08T19:04:57.690-04:00"I don't think there need to be tasks, th..."I don't think there need to be tasks, though. Spirituality can be about sharing experience and knowledge."<br /><br />This is very true. I think that we have lost a sense that the earlier Christians had that being a Christian was part of living in a Christian community. (In a way, the goal of some small groups is just to be small groups). I don't think that it's the Church's fault that this older idea of what a community really is collapsed. It has collapsed in society in general.<br /><br />The goal of consumerism is to provide pleasure without suffering. Now sometimes it is true that some people find pleasure in suffering in the sense that they both are willing to suffer (through hard work, say, or through charity) and need to actually suffer for their faith or some principle and they get pleasure from this. But those people are rare. So even the Church now wants to attract people by being entertaining or light work and stuff like that. <br /><br />But communities used to demand commitment, intimacy (which requires one to make oneself vulnerable; another thing we don't do well anymore), and active participation. When one does this, one then shares all of the problems of each person in the group. But we as Catholics used to have a way to approach this sort of thing. We can hardly do it for ourselves any more. We as a people pull back from real commitment, back from intimacy, and back from the kind of active participation where we don't control when and how we participate and have to put ourselves in the service of others.<br /><br />I think that thinking of spirituality in terms of sharing experience and knowledge is close to the spirit of this.Patrick Shannonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11952977031779999420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-68272095618539474732017-05-08T18:53:51.340-04:002017-05-08T18:53:51.340-04:00The formal purpose is to live (or rather, try to l...The formal purpose is to live (or rather, try to live) a Christian life based on Franciscan (as opposed to Jesuit, Dominican, etc) spirituality. I'm sure you are going to ask me what a "spirituality" is, so I'll say that it's a sort of method of living. So let's say that the aim is to provide a certain environment or context. Within that context one then does stuff that is charitable, intellectual, or spiritual. Hard to explain. And different Franciscan "fraternities" have different personalities. I would not at all have stayed at some of the other ones in the diocese, even though we all supposedly share the same spirituality. I don't know how I lucked out with this one. But it's been helpful. And part of our task is to have conversations that we can't have around our non-religious or even our more conservative religious neighbors.Patrick Shannonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11952977031779999420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-39038750757771302552017-05-08T18:48:29.658-04:002017-05-08T18:48:29.658-04:00In such an organization, you would not quite be in...In such an organization, you would not quite be involved in parish life. You'd really be involved in the little group. And these religious groups tend to have people go through quite a long "formation" period, where you are free to drop out any time. You also don't have to even be a member of the Order to attend the meetings. It might seem like all of this flexibility is a consumer oriented innovation. But it's always been there and I think it's more because the people in the group think of membership in the group as a sort of calling. Check out and see what kind of oblates exist in your diocese (it will probably be in a different parish) and maybe check one out. Who knows?Patrick Shannonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11952977031779999420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-81344016969686587962017-05-08T18:10:23.797-04:002017-05-08T18:10:23.797-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Katherine Nielsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08309113327087187334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-84019028656520881262017-05-08T18:10:04.108-04:002017-05-08T18:10:04.108-04:00When we still lived in my hometown, I belonged to ...When we still lived in my hometown, I belonged to a rosary group. We would meet every Tuesday and say the rosary. And eat snacks afterward.Katherine Nielsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08309113327087187334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-63936201681485240412017-05-08T17:21:58.569-04:002017-05-08T17:21:58.569-04:00Hi Patrick :)
One place I found a small spiritua...Hi Patrick :)<br /><br />One place I found a small spiritual community years ago was a group that met for meditation. We would snack afterwards, but the one neat moment was when those who were interested volunteered to go to Hawaii for three weeks to help build a new zen meditation building.<br /><br />I don't think there need to be tasks, though. Spirituality can be about sharing experience and knowledge.crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-47679612670120681252017-05-08T15:53:10.927-04:002017-05-08T15:53:10.927-04:00If the group is not task oriented, what is its pur...If the group is not task oriented, what is its purpose? I'm trying to think of a group that is NOT task oriented. For instance, if I go for coffee with my old lady friends, our task is to have conversations that we can't have around our husbands.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10521323422856503292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-11852082421324393682017-05-08T14:39:39.244-04:002017-05-08T14:39:39.244-04:00Thanks for joining in, Patrick. Sorely missed. I...Thanks for joining in, Patrick. Sorely missed. I have to admit I am mostly a loyal pew sitter. I was always afraid if I got involved in parish life, I might end up bailing out. It would be nice to have the type of community you refer to.Stanley Kopaczhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12133446714376982656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-36788404534639590332017-05-08T13:54:00.038-04:002017-05-08T13:54:00.038-04:00Hello. Unagidon here.
I've written about thi...Hello. Unagidon here.<br /><br />I've written about this before on Commonweal. I'm a Third Order Franciscan. When we meet as a group it's right after Mass. We have a prayer session of our own, usually from the Liturgy of the Hours. And there is usually a presentation/discussion and of course there's food. I have found over time that Mass has become an adjunct to these sessions and that for me a total "Mass experience" consists of both Mass and meeting.<br /><br />Ivan Illich talks about the importance of small groups in the history of Christianity in the book Rivers North of the Future. Our little group is about fellowship, but it's also a form of worship. I think there was a time in our history when these were common (speaking about centuries ago). I feel that the modern Church has become too "industrialized" in its concepts of Church group. They seem to be centered around tasks. Sometimes the "task" is prayer, but they always seem to need a function. And this dovetails, I think, with the all too industrial idea of appealing to consumers in order to get market share.<br /><br />My little group is not task oriented. We do take on tasks, but that's not what we are about. I wonder if little groups could make a comeback. The good thing about them is that people could center themselves around their own, shall we say, personalities and still rotate around the church at the center. It's just a thought.Patrick Shannonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11952977031779999420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-5075682926020425002017-05-08T08:28:09.084-04:002017-05-08T08:28:09.084-04:00"Carrying a burden." I am going to remem..."Carrying a burden." I am going to remember that when I pray!Jeanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14702081408526023197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-86197422846567854712017-05-08T06:06:16.134-04:002017-05-08T06:06:16.134-04:00And what I started to say is that canon law no lon...And what I started to say is that canon law no longer nominally forces you to the church in your parish boundaries, so if you feel unwelcome, try another parish. (I know that is no longer possible in many parts of the country.)tom blackburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09617525711233538704noreply@blogger.com