tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post7095494543394776729..comments2024-03-28T08:00:17.624-04:00Comments on NewGathering: Tolerance for Diversity: Can We Find Common Ground?David Nickolhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17769931102661478298noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-37997343046780692342017-04-23T17:56:11.744-04:002017-04-23T17:56:11.744-04:00David,
The auto-anathema. What a conveniently in...David,<br /><br />The auto-anathema. What a conveniently invented doctrine because then no one is responsible for dooming the recipients except themselves. I must have missed that NT memo.<br /><br />If you want to see me as anti-Catholic, I don't mind. I don't think I am. There's stuff I really like about Catholicism, like Ignatian spirituality. But there's a lot I don't like too.<br />crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-68416028939685642522017-04-23T17:01:57.973-04:002017-04-23T17:01:57.973-04:00crystal said: But it's not just the archbishop...crystal said: <i>But it's not just the archbishop - I recall that the CDF refused to undo the excommunicating of the little girl's mother and doctors and they backed Sobrinho's actions/words.</i><br /><br />Your recollections are faulty, as were some of the press reports. Archbishop José Sobrinho did not excommunicate anyone. He declared, as if it were a fact, that the mother who sought the abortion and the doctor (or doctors) who performed it were excommunicated <i>automatically</i>—that is, he claimed that they had been excommunicated <i>latae sententiae.</i> To somewhat oversimplify, what Sobrinho did was express an <i>opinion.</i> (I never thought I would be linking to EWTN, but to see some of the technicalities involved, see <a href="https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/abortio2.htm" rel="nofollow">this.</a> The point is that the CDF could in no way "undo the excommunication." <br /><br />crystal said: <i>the same thing happened in Paraguay with a then 10 year old girl and in that case the church *did* have the political power to stop her from getting an abortion.</i><br /><br />What happened in Paraguay was a bit different, in that it involved only the government, not the Church. Although undoubtedly Paraguay has very strict abortion laws because the population is almost 90% Catholic, abortion is still allowed if there is a threat to the life of the mother. According to governmental authorities, the pregnant girl would have been more at risk from an abortion than from a continued pregnancy. Had an abortion been performed, it would have been late term, since the girl was already 22 weeks pregnant when her mother took her to the doctor to find out why she was having symptoms. <br /><br />What you are trying to do, it seems to me, is to discredit the Church by selecting a handful of horror stories, in much the same way that pro-lifers focus on late-term abortion, "partial birth abortion," and reprehensible abortionists like <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/14/us/kermit-gosnell-abortion-doctor-found-guilty-of-murder.html" rel="nofollow">Kermit Gosnell.</a> Both pro-abortion and anti-abortion advocates try to focus on the 1% of abortions that are extremely atypical when 99% of abortions are more or less routine. In the name of "women's rights," you will no doubt defend abortion on demand, which permits women who have unwanted girl children to abort them and try again for boys. David Nickolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17769931102661478298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-52870022069134226722017-04-23T16:39:20.389-04:002017-04-23T16:39:20.389-04:00I want the Democratic party to be true to its own ...I want the Democratic party to be true to <a href="http://s3.amazonaws.com/uploads.democrats.org/Downloads/2016_DNC_Platform.pdf" rel="nofollow">its own platform statement</a> ...<br /><br />"We believe unequivocally, like the majority of Americans, that every woman should have access to quality reproductive health care services, including safe and legal abortion—regardless of where she lives, how much money she makes, or how she is insured. We believe that reproductive health is core to women’s, men’s, and young people’s health and wellbeing. <br /><br />We will continue to stand up to Republican efforts to defund Planned Parenthood health centers, which provide critical health services to millions of people. We will continue to oppose—and seek to overturn—federal and state laws and policies that impede a woman’s access to abortion, including by repealing the Hyde Amendment ..."<br />crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-65419781039716040542017-04-23T16:09:43.431-04:002017-04-23T16:09:43.431-04:00"...the Democrats need to recognize that ther..."...the Democrats need to recognize that there are many folks who believe in a safety net BECAUSE they are pro-life.." Jean, exactly.Katherine Nielsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08309113327087187334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-90508846938913812892017-04-23T13:48:25.173-04:002017-04-23T13:48:25.173-04:00Crystal, if I read you right you want the Democrat...Crystal, if I read you right you want the Democratic Party to be the pro-abortion party, meaning what? Abortion for any reason at any time?Margaret Steinfelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06660518023817721965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-28049319858253718952017-04-23T12:09:42.185-04:002017-04-23T12:09:42.185-04:00Don't want to beat this issue to death and it ...Don't want to beat this issue to death and it seems I'm the only one here who feels this way, but I'll try one more example to show what I mean.<br /><br />The Democratic party is also the party that supports the rights of LGBT people and the rights of racial minorities. Despite differing personal opinions among Democrats, the Democratic party would not officially support a candidate who wanted to overturn the Supreme Court's decision on marriage equality or who wanted to turn back the clock on voting rights for racial minorities.<br /><br />The Democratic party supports the civil rights of everyone, women included, and even though there may be individual Democrats who are pro-life, the party itself can't officially support a candidate who wants to poop on women's rights, any of those rights, especially ones granted by the Supreme Court, especially ones that have to do with health and life, and still remain the Democratic party.<br />crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-74963967811586799882017-04-23T09:24:54.200-04:002017-04-23T09:24:54.200-04:00But, Crystal, doesn't your answer suggest that...But, Crystal, doesn't your answer suggest that people on both sides if the issue can't live in the same party? You say pro-lifers won't make up for pro-choicers, as if everyone were single-issue voters, and the issue is abortion. We're the Democratic Party, not the Women'Reproductive Rights Party. I think we can and must begin to give a nod to what we have in common with pro-life factions. Accepting differences of opinion and some restrictions to abortion on demand does not mean making women's reproductive rights optional. Abortion is a subset of women's repro rights. Jeanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14702081408526023197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-25545600205063157362017-04-23T01:49:07.289-04:002017-04-23T01:49:07.289-04:00I didn't ignore the other guys - I didn't ...I didn't ignore the other guys - I didn't know about them. And I didn't search out the worst quote - it was in an article I read about the even in TIME magazine! :) But it's not just the archbishop - I recall that the CDF refused to undo the excommunicating of the little girl's mother and doctors and they backed Sobrinho's actions/words.<br /><br />And it gets worse ... the same thing happened in Paraguay with a then 10 year old girl and in that case the church *did* have the political power to stop her from getting an abortion. They put her life at risk, even though the United Nations asked that she be allowed to terminate the pregnancy ... http://www.refinery29.com/2015/05/87269/paraguay-10-year-old-rape-survivor-denied-abortion<br /><br />So I'm anti-Catholic for calling the church on its treatment of little girls? So be it.crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-30355921022832630672017-04-23T00:59:10.300-04:002017-04-23T00:59:10.300-04:00I am not sure I get your point. In the definition ...I am not sure I get your point. In the definition of homicide—the unjust killing of an innocent person—an "innocent person" is basically someone who has not committed a capital offense. "Innocent" doesn't mean "virtuous." Civilians who root for their side in a war are still innocent. Anyone executed for a crime he or she didn't commit would, as I understand it, be "innocent" no matter how many other crimes he or she had committed. The unborn are not termed innocent because they are little angels. They are innocent because they haven't committed capital offenses. It's not something to their credit. Although some pro-lifers want to cast them as martyrs, the Church has said they are not. David Nickolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17769931102661478298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-78043432914707177992017-04-22T23:41:42.919-04:002017-04-22T23:41:42.919-04:00crystal said: . . . the Catholic church tried to s...crystal said:<i> . . . the Catholic church tried to stop the abortion and justified it with this... "Abortion is much more serious than killing an adult. An adult may or may not be an innocent, but an unborn child is most definitely innocent. Taking that life cannot be ignored."</i><br /><br />The "Catholic Church" did not utter the quote given above. It was Archbishop José Sobrinho (as the linked article notes) in a telephone interview with Time magazine. Archbishop José Sobrinho is not the Catholic Church. There were many reactions to Sobrinho's handling of the incident. Wikipedia notes: "The National Conference of Bishops of Brazil repudiated Sobrinho's initiative. . . ." It also notes: "The Holy See's semi-official newspaper, L'Osservatore Romano, published a front-page article on 15 March by Archbishop Rino Fisichella, President of the Pontifical Academy for Life, that was highly critical of Sobrinho's action. . . " and "Bishop Jean-Michel di Falco of Gap, France, criticized what he saw as the un-Christlike nature of Sobrinho's statement." <br /><br />If you are hostile to Catholicism, then of course it suits your purposes to identify Archbishop José Sobrinho as "the Catholic Church" and ignore the National Conference of the Bishops of Brazil and the President of the Pontifical Academy for Life altogether. They don't fit the narrative. It's necessary to pick out the very worst outrages you can find and attempt to use them to define "the Catholic Church." <br /><br />Troubled as I am by abortion, I would still say that when the life or health of a 9-year-old is in danger because she has been raped by her step-father and is pregnant with twins, the decision in favor of abortion is a no-brainer. But I think it is unfair to condemn the Catholic Church because an archbishop said something asinine or even because the Church holds to an ideal that most would find it impossible to conform to in extreme situations. David Nickolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17769931102661478298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-57442202193876128922017-04-22T22:26:13.811-04:002017-04-22T22:26:13.811-04:00Being anti-abortion is seen as being in conflict w...Being anti-abortion is seen as being in conflict with women's rights. Democrats supporting women's rights is very basic to the party. If they change that and make women's reproductive care an optional issue, I think the party will die ... I really doubt the anti-abortion people can make up for in numbers the loss of pro-choice women voters.crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-38832005613592773402017-04-22T19:30:14.823-04:002017-04-22T19:30:14.823-04:00Well, if St. Augustine is right about original sin...Well, if St. Augustine is right about original sin, the unborn are the only people who deserve to be called innocent. Since World War II, the majority of people killed in wars have been non-combatants. Civilians have usually been considered innocent, although that is arguable if they have been cheering and whooping for their national war-mongers. And, as the Innocence Project has shown, it is not unheard of for people to be executed for crimes they did not commit, although it's doubtful that any of them are as pure as fresh snow. All of which makes "innocent," as defined, highly unlikely for the born.tom blackburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09617525711233538704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-12189771378564568922017-04-22T19:06:59.709-04:002017-04-22T19:06:59.709-04:00I don't want to debate abortion. I think the D...I don't want to debate abortion. I think the Democrats need to recognize that there are many folks who believe in a safety net BECAUSE they are pro-life, and the party needs to make peace with them. To what extent has the Democratic party radicalized pro-lifers and driven them away? Jeanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14702081408526023197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-85092963765438362772017-04-22T16:51:30.120-04:002017-04-22T16:51:30.120-04:00But in actual real life situation, like when a nin...But in actual real life situation, like when a nine year old girl in Brazil was raped and pregnant with twins and docs told her she needed an abortion to save her life, the Catholic church tried to stop the abortion and justified it with this...<br /><br />"Abortion is much more serious than killing an adult. An adult may or may not be an innocent, but an unborn child is most definitely innocent. Taking that life cannot be ignored."<br /><br /><a href="http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1883598,00.html" rel="nofollow">From TIME magazine</a> crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-75529740054975997032017-04-22T16:39:17.174-04:002017-04-22T16:39:17.174-04:00Thanks David; I think that is a clarification of t...Thanks David; I think that is a clarification of terms that is needed.Katherine Nielsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08309113327087187334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-65510565136292775072017-04-22T15:58:56.571-04:002017-04-22T15:58:56.571-04:00Tom Blackburn said: If you ask them why they say i...Tom Blackburn said:<i> If you ask them why they say it, that's their answer -- fetuses haven't been convicted (on tainted evidence?) and sentenced. But when they say it, it's just a meaningless add-on, like godless communism and Fabian socialism. </i><br /><br />It is certainly true that some pro-lifers sentimentalize the unborn (or at least the unborn at risk of being aborted). There have even been those who compare aborted babies to the "Holy Innocents" (killed by Herod) and urged the Vatican to declare aborted babies martyrs.<br /><br />However, it is very common (including in the Catechism of the Catholic Church) to define abortion and murder as the unjust killing of the <i>innocent.</i> This is not a matter of sentimentality, but rather of necessary definition. For example, the old online Catholic Encyclopedia, in the article <b>Homicide</b> says: <i>The direct killing of an innocent person is, of course, to be reckoned among the most grievous of sins. . . . For the scope contemplated here, a person is regarded as innocent so long as he has not by any responsible act brought any hurt to the community or to an individual comparable with the loss of life."</i> To say that the unborn are innocent is not to say they are especially virtuous or saintly, or to say that they have a greater right to life than the "post-born." It is simply to say that they have not done anything to justify killing them.David Nickolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17769931102661478298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-34505137320981381112017-04-22T13:32:55.876-04:002017-04-22T13:32:55.876-04:00Bernie is not really a Democrat and this is partl...Bernie is not really a Democrat and this is partly why he was unable to win the nomination. I think his 'revolution' will fail to take over the Dem party as he continues to put his own limited agenda before the priorities of those who do mostly make up the party ... women, racial minorities, LGBT people, the poor. crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-89201264092221002012017-04-22T13:27:44.881-04:002017-04-22T13:27:44.881-04:00The situation we now have is nuanced - there are a...The situation we now have is nuanced - there are a number of restrictions on abortion already. But pro-life people don't have a nuanced position - they want to make all abortion illegal.crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-26488916097247315742017-04-22T12:33:10.729-04:002017-04-22T12:33:10.729-04:00"This is why pro-choice Obama won two terms a..."This is why pro-choice Obama won two terms and why pro-choice Hillary won the popular vote over Trump." There were a lot of other reasons why Obama won, and Clinton could have used the boost of some additional votes to get her over the hump.<br />The article wasn't actually about making abortion illegal, it cited statistics saying that "... more than half of U.S. adults take a non-absolutist position, saying that in most – but not all – cases abortion should be legal (34%) or illegal (24%). Fewer take the position that in all cases abortion should be either legal (23%) or illegal (15%)." It was about a more nuanced position being an advantage.Katherine Nielsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08309113327087187334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-17619598311326993332017-04-22T12:23:16.447-04:002017-04-22T12:23:16.447-04:00According to the statistics cited in this article,...According to the statistics cited in <a href="http://www.slate.com/blogs/saletan/2014/01/15/do_pro_lifers_oppose_birth_control_polls_say_no.html" rel="nofollow">this</a> article, 3 quarters of people who believe that abortion is wrong believe that contraception is morally acceptable. Access to contraception is a compromise many if not most pro-lifers would be willing to make. Katherine Nielsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08309113327087187334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-38553947869895919972017-04-22T12:12:54.037-04:002017-04-22T12:12:54.037-04:00David: Don't deny anything!David: Don't deny anything!Margaret Steinfelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06660518023817721965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-24796383412205923382017-04-22T12:11:43.783-04:002017-04-22T12:11:43.783-04:00Without these pro-lifers, Democrats will continue ...<i>Without these pro-lifers, Democrats will continue to be the minority party, unable to advance the kind of legislation most progressives have on their agenda.</i><br /><br />This is completely untrue. Polls continue to show that most people want abortion to remain legal ... <a href="http://www.pewforum.org/2017/01/11/public-opinion-on-abortion-2/" rel="nofollow">As of 2016, public support for legal abortion is as high as it has been in two decades of polling. Currently, 57% say abortion should be legal in all or most cases</a>.<br /><br />This is why pro-choice Obama won two terms and why pro-choice Hillary won the popular vote over Trump.<br /><br />crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-33881206413190376962017-04-22T12:10:43.231-04:002017-04-22T12:10:43.231-04:00Read this story with great interest in the NYTimes...Read this story with great interest in the NYTimes this morning. I am not a fan of Bernie, but I think he was onto a major problem of the Democratic Party: the are hardliners on abortion, but squishy on economic matters that affect their long-lost former base in Catholic working and middle class. <br /><br />The quote in the story from NARAL and Perez kowtowing to Cecil Richards of Planned Parenthood show that anything about abortion is non-negotiable for the Democrats. I think that non-negotiable is one reason for Clinton's loss (not the major, but enuf to siphon off people who are leery of talk of the "absolute right to abortion."<br /><br />Here's the link again: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/21/us/politics/bernie-sanders-democrats-nebraska.html?ref=politics&_r=0Margaret Steinfelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06660518023817721965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-29088290652601507162017-04-22T11:58:01.446-04:002017-04-22T11:58:01.446-04:00Except .... a woman's right to control how man...Except .... a woman's right to control how many children she has and when she has then has a huge impact on her economic life and on her country's economic life. It is no coincidence that some of the poorest countries are also the ones where birth control and abortion are difficult to access ... think the Philippines.crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-44067107581912779572017-04-22T11:07:12.990-04:002017-04-22T11:07:12.990-04:00Not everyone here will agree with this article. Bu...Not everyone here will agree with <a href="https://thefederalist.com/2017/04/21/dnc-chair-just-endorsed-pro-lifer-abortion-fanatics-furious/" rel="nofollow">this</a> article. But it makes a good case that "...Without these pro-lifers, Democrats will continue to be the minority party, unable to advance the kind of legislation most progressives have on their agenda." Katherine Nielsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08309113327087187334noreply@blogger.com