tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post2184288595435751987..comments2024-03-28T08:00:17.624-04:00Comments on NewGathering: Gallup: Record USA Liberal Moral Views. Why?David Nickolhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17769931102661478298noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-18262843970583353022017-05-19T07:12:01.178-04:002017-05-19T07:12:01.178-04:00I find interesting the gap between what people cla...I find interesting the gap between what people claim to tolerate and what they actually do. The stuff at the bottom of the graph seems to be more prevalent than one would predict from the attitudes. I almost think that some more columns need to be added, where there is an inverse relationship between what is not "tolerated" and what one is actually likely to do based on how easy to get away with it. So, for example, porn is popular and lucrative even though many people claim to oppose it, while polygamy is both not tolerated and rare.Patrick Shannonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11952977031779999420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-57375907299589813172017-05-17T23:54:55.900-04:002017-05-17T23:54:55.900-04:00I think the thing about divorce is not that it is ...I think the thing about divorce is not that it is morally situational but that it isn't seen as a moral thingy at all anymore. It's not "bad" to get a divorce, though it may be painful and unfortunate. Relationships fail, not usually because one person is trying to injure the other. The damage done is accidental, not the purpose of the break-up. Almost everyone gets married with the hope it will last forever, but sometimes love goes away.crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-90184684437043847912017-05-17T19:29:04.315-04:002017-05-17T19:29:04.315-04:00Even on another more controversial issue, abortion...Even on another more controversial issue, abortion, most Americans are situational and there is a great deal of agreement about certain conditions, e.g. rape, life of the mother, etc.<br /><br />We are in fact both pro-life and pro-choice at the same time. We don't like the fact of abortion even at the same time we do not like the idea of a woman not being able to have an abortion. <br /><br />In both divorce and abortion how people sort themselves out as liberal or conservative may not have much to do with what they would do in concrete situations but more to do with how they view the world in general.Jack Rakoskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03755655685437527617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-4718997832420097502017-05-17T19:16:16.010-04:002017-05-17T19:16:16.010-04:00divorce is "sometimes a good thing" is b...divorce is "sometimes a good thing" is behind the tolerant, self-expression which defines one dimension of Americans, but we also know that in many cases divorce is "not a good thing" that people get hurt, often the children, which defines the conservative traditional values dimension of America. <br /><br />We are not truly relativists that anything goes, i.e. that marriage is just a contract that the parties can dissolve when they wish. <br /><br />We know of some cases in which divorce was a good solution and some where it was not. A friend said one day that he would never have divorced his first wife if he had known all the difficulty that it caused in raising his two sons. He told me this because he had just come from begging one of his married sons not to do the same thing with that son's wife and his grandsons.<br /><br />So in an affluent society where we have the resources to pick up the pieces we can find some perhaps many divorces not only acceptable but even desirable. However if we were in a survival oriented society we just might decide that the chances of picking up the pieces of a divorce might not be very favorable.Jack Rakoskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03755655685437527617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-72979023615574569702017-05-17T12:03:12.311-04:002017-05-17T12:03:12.311-04:00Yeah, lying to the Nazis. Everyone lies, even ani...Yeah, lying to the Nazis. Everyone lies, even animals have been shown to lie. But when it gets creepy is when people find situational reasons to do something like torture - the ends justifying the means is a slippery slope.crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-73154425919044133672017-05-17T11:58:11.324-04:002017-05-17T11:58:11.324-04:00Watch that metaphor, indeed.
A feature of the curr...Watch that metaphor, indeed.<br />A feature of the current partisan struggles is that both liberals and conservatives feel they must "impose their values" on others, or, at least, that dissenting others are obliged to agree to their claims. <br /><br />Per Jean's request for liberal examples...why make a baker bake a cake for my same-sex wedding, ditto photographers, etc., when they morally object. The Supreme Court said, Issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples. They didn't say make the baker bake a cake. <br /><br />Last evening at a Fordham panel on religious liberty, the panelists, Protestant, Muslim, Catholic, all offered example both left and right about the way these cases are undermining any workable idea of religious liberty. No Mosques in Murphysboro, Catholic hospitals should perform abortions, etc. And North Carolina: stay out of the bathrooms!!Margaret Steinfelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06660518023817721965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-68214602208614985992017-05-17T11:26:10.143-04:002017-05-17T11:26:10.143-04:00Yeah, like the way former Gov. now U,S. Rep. Mark ...Yeah, like the way former Gov. now U,S. Rep. Mark Sanford and the recent governor of Alabama, not to mention the groper-in-chief shoved their liberal values down innocent Christian throats. (Oops. Better watch that metaphor, Margaret.)tom blackburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09617525711233538704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-83380764975607314342017-05-17T08:10:14.777-04:002017-05-17T08:10:14.777-04:00My students in Am Lit were assigned to look up pur...My students in Am Lit were assigned to look up puritan laws. Some were horrified/delighted to see that gossips had to wear a kind of bit that fitted of the head in a cage to shut people up. <br /><br />And my guess is that male adultery is as bad for women and children as porn and polygamy. <br /><br />Just sayin' ...Jeanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14702081408526023197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-36321024171273011492017-05-17T05:56:26.122-04:002017-05-17T05:56:26.122-04:00Crystal, I agree about moral relativism and some t...Crystal, I agree about moral relativism and some things always being wrong. In talking about situation ethics I meant there's sometimes things about a given situation that make something not wrong or not as wrong. There's the classic example of lying to the Nazis to protect Jews who were hiding in the cellar. Or stealing food because otherwise your children would starve.Katherine Nielsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08309113327087187334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-80601499839477006812017-05-17T02:58:24.824-04:002017-05-17T02:58:24.824-04:00Moral relativism is kind of scary. I do think some...Moral relativism is kind of scary. I do think some things are always going to be bad no matter what the situation - wife-beating, child sexual assault, rape, torture, murder, cruelty to animals, etc., and these things are crimes.<br /><br />Polygamy and porn - I think it's been shown that both end up having bad consequences for women and children.<br /><br />But all the rest of the stuff seems only moral/immoral in context.crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-16259460784406972352017-05-16T22:00:19.961-04:002017-05-16T22:00:19.961-04:00Maybe we should bring back stocks and ducking stoo...Maybe we should bring back stocks and ducking stools (but not really). That's how they used to punish scolds and gossips in the old days. Funny how the scolds and gossips were always women.Katherine Nielsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08309113327087187334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-13742175884221540712017-05-16T21:26:26.847-04:002017-05-16T21:26:26.847-04:00People tell me I am judgmental. It's true I ma...People tell me I am judgmental. It's true I make judgments. It's because I have a brain. I see distinctions. I see practicalities. Moral absolutes are great, but do we know what is absolutely moral? I doubt it. <br /><br />Does the state have an interest in criminalizing immoral behavior? Yes, when it disturbs the peace, prosperity, or property of the community at large.<br /><br />It's harder to trick out what should be illegal acts against individuals. <br /><br />Being the victim of adultery might do more damage to someone than being robbed of a few hundred dollars. But we don't lock up adulterers. Why? I would be happy to entertain arguments for why adultery should be criminalized. <br /><br />Gossip is never punished unless it is proved to be slander or libel. But we all know people whose incessant tale-mongering disturbs the general peace. Why are bookies and fortune tellers thrown in the can while drama queens and gossips are allowed to run free? Seems wrong to me.Jeanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14702081408526023197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-35752331869769612492017-05-16T20:19:00.905-04:002017-05-16T20:19:00.905-04:00Jean, "gray area", the much maligned &qu...Jean, "gray area", the much maligned " moral relativism". Or a term I haven't heard in a while, "situation ethics". I unabashedly am a practicer of situation ethics. So are most people if they are honest. Situations are the context in which we apply the ethics. Otherwise we're nothing but robots.Katherine Nielsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08309113327087187334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-38807886916141117932017-05-16T20:02:46.821-04:002017-05-16T20:02:46.821-04:00This isn't about liberals shoving things down ...This isn't about liberals shoving things down people's throats. This is about more and more people in our culture coming to believe for themselves in certain things. Conservatives may think they are only the values of liberals but it is a majority of people, not just liberals, who have sex before marriage, who believe it's ok to be LGBT, who think divorce is sometimes a good thing, etc. crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-38974888918790011472017-05-16T18:54:11.212-04:002017-05-16T18:54:11.212-04:00As always, looking for the gray area. Is gambling ...As always, looking for the gray area. Is gambling acceptable? I guess a Vegas Night for a charity is OK. Divorce? Yes, if some guy is beating the crap out of you and your kids.<br /><br />What does "acceptability" mean? That they shouldn't be criminalized? Or that they are good things that should be promoted?<br /><br />Example of liberals shoving things down people's throats? <br /><br />Jeanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14702081408526023197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-81941871102340805192017-05-16T13:42:20.481-04:002017-05-16T13:42:20.481-04:00Yew freedom of choice for liberals but not for oth...Yew freedom of choice for liberals but not for others.Jack Rakoskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03755655685437527617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-30253817596435155402017-05-16T13:40:55.694-04:002017-05-16T13:40:55.694-04:00But it is equally true that conservatives are the ...But it is equally true that conservatives are the worst enemy of traditional values. <br /><br />The real question is who will do themselves in the mostJack Rakoskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03755655685437527617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-23796993176140188742017-05-16T13:07:49.456-04:002017-05-16T13:07:49.456-04:00And not just liberal values, but the way some libe...And not just liberal values, but the way some liberals shove liberal values down other people's throats!Margaret Steinfelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06660518023817721965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-62099233548624179812017-05-16T13:00:14.359-04:002017-05-16T13:00:14.359-04:00Actually Inglehart in a complex way would agree as...Actually Inglehart in a complex way would agree as we will see in the follow-up post Jack Rakoskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03755655685437527617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-48311539156360109692017-05-16T12:48:07.729-04:002017-05-16T12:48:07.729-04:00Maybe liberal values have undermined liberal polit...Maybe liberal values have undermined liberal politics!Margaret Steinfelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06660518023817721965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1315362208709650810.post-41813506466654176532017-05-16T10:21:08.869-04:002017-05-16T10:21:08.869-04:00This might renew our discussion of generations sta...This might renew our discussion of generations started by Margaret. Important to distinguish among long term trends that effect everyone, the values that come together during our childhood, adolescence and early adulthood which interpret trends and events, and one time events that may interact with the first two.Jack Rakoskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03755655685437527617noreply@blogger.com