It has been in the news lately that Cardinal Robert McElroy has removed Msgr. Stephen Rosetti from the post of exorcist for the archdiocese of Washington, DC., after some comments he made about UFO sightings and demons: Washington archbishop removes priest as exorcist after comments on UFOs and demons | National Catholic Reporter
"The archbishop said Rossetti's statements "linking UFOs to demonic presence and the Center's recent use of social media gravely undermine the Church's very precise teaching on the devil, demons and exorcism."
So I thought it might be useful to explore what the Church's teaching on exorcism and exorcists actually is. From the USCCB site on that subject: Exorcism | USCCB
"Exorcism is a specific form of prayer that the Church uses against the power of the devil...Exorcism is a prayer that falls in the category of sacramentals, that is, one of a number of sacred signs instituted by the Church "to sanctify different circumstances of life" (Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 351), thus varying from the seven sacraments of the Church which were instituted by Christ himself."
"...Exorcisms are divided into two kinds (or forms). Simple or minor forms of exorcism are found in two places: first, for those preparing for Baptism, the Order of Christian Initiation of Adults (OCIA) and the Order of Baptism of Children both call for minor exorcisms; secondly, the appendix of Exorcisms and Related Supplications includes a series of prayers which may be used by the faithful."
"The second kind is the solemn or "major exorcism," which is a rite that can only be performed by a bishop or a by priest, with the special and express permission of the local ordinary (cf. Code of Canon Law, can. 1172). This form is directed "at the expulsion of demons or to the liberation [of a person] from demonic possession" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 1673)."
"...It is advisable that every diocese establish a protocol to respond to inquiries made by the faithful who claim to be demonically afflicted. As part of the protocol, an assessment should occur to determine the true state of the person.Only after a thorough examination including medical, psychological, and psychiatric testing might the person be referred to the exorcist for a final determination regarding demonic possession. To be clear, the actual determination of whether a member of the faithful is genuinely possessed by the devil is made by the Church, even if individuals claim to be possessed through their own self-diagnosis or psychosis."
"While both forms of exorcism are directed against the power of the devil, the Rite of Major Exorcism is employed only when there is a case of genuine demonic possession, namely, when it is determined that the presence of the devil is in the body of the possessed and the devil is able to exercise dominion over that body. Minor exorcisms are prayers used to break the influence of evil and sin in a person's life, whether as a catechumen preparing for Baptism or as one of the Baptized faithful striving to overcome the influence of evil and sin in his or her life."
"...The minister of a minor exorcism is the designated authorized minister of the sacrament (RCIA or Baptism for Children) or blessing being celebrated. Thus, the prayers in Appendix II, "Supplications which May be Used by the Faithful Privately in Their Struggle against the Powers of Darkness" may be offered by any member of the clergy or by the lay faithful. However, the Rite of Major Exorcism is to be celebrated only by a bishop or a priest who has obtained the special and express permission of the diocesan bishop."
"A priest may be appointed to the office of exorcist either on a stable basis or for a particular occasion (ad actum) by the diocesan bishop. In either case, the exorcist should work closely with, and under the direction of, the bishop....The Introduction to Exorcisms and Related Supplications further directs that the priest "has been specifically prepared for this office" (ERS, no. 13)."
"As has been mentioned previously, the Rite of Major Exorcism is to be administered only by an authorized priest or bishop (sacerdos). If it is deemed useful, members of the lay faithful may be present for the rite, supporting the work of the exorcist by their prayers either recited privately or as instructed in the rite. However, the text cautions that the lay faithful are not to recite any prayers reserved to the exorcist (ERS, no. 35), not only because the prayers are reserved to those ordained to act in the person of Christ the Head (in persona Christi capitis), but also to protect the faithful from possible spiritual harm....When an afflicted member of the faithful is female, there should be at least one other female present for the sake of propriety and discretion. At no time should the exorcist be alone with an afflicted member of the faithful, neither during consultation nor for the celebration of the rite... the practice of performing an exorcism in solitude should be discouraged at all costs.
"...The exorcist is instructed to employ the "utmost circumspection and prudence" before proceeding to the rite (ERS, no. 14). Throughout his ministry, an exorcist must establish a balance within his own mind between not believing too easily that the devil is responsible for what is manifesting, and attributing all possible manifestations solely to a natural, organic source."
The norm is to celebrate the rite of exorcism in an oratory or other appropriate place (for example, a small chapel) discreetly hidden from plain view (ERS, no. 33). It is to the advantage of the exorcist whenever possibleto uttilize a place that is dedicated to God's honor and not the home of the afflicted person, for instance."
"For the integrity of the afflicted person's reputation as well as for those individuals who might be assisting, the preservation of confidentiality is important. It is also strongly suggested that the identity of the exorcist be kept secret or at most known only to the other priests of the diocese so as not to overwhelm the exorcist with random calls and inquiries."
Now some comments from me: It appears that Msgr. Rosetti broke several rules or guidelines here. The first being that he is public about his ministry, and is on social media about it. As mentioned above, every diocese is recommended to appoint a priest to the office of exorcist, but his identity is not usually made public. I would guess that most clergy probably do know who it is. But they are asked not to spread it around or gossip about it. Being the designated exorcist for a diocese is not a permanent appointment. Like other ministries priests may serve as an exorcist for a time, and move on to other jobs, and someone else may be appointed. At least in our diocese, it isn't a full time job. The priest has many other duties, unrelated to that one.
The other guideline Msgr. Rosetti seems to have broken is making off the wall statements about UFOs and space aliens that have no theological or Biblical base.
It should be noted that as far as I know Msgr. Rosetti is still a priest in good standing, and can still do Mass and the sacraments the same as any other priest. He just isn't the appointed exorcist of his archdiocese any more.
It seems to me that exorcism was a better candidate for inclusion as a sacrament than most of the seven, since Jesus actually performed exorcisms himself and explicitly commissioned the apostles to perform exorcisms in his name. Jesus never performed marriages, anointed the sick, or "confirmed" anyone (unless I have overlooked something).
ReplyDeleteI may be misreading things, but it seems the official attitude of the Church to exorcism is a bit mixed, being both deeply serious and yet wary of being embarrassed. On the one hand, I do agree that Msgr. Rosett's statements were "off the wall." On the other hand, there are endless documented cases of Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena (the government term for UFOs). For those who already believe in demons, what reason is there to conclude they are not sometimes the cause of UAP?
There is something that I have long considered curious about exorcisms. From the little I know, exorcisms are not always successful. I am relatively sure that when performed correctly, with all participants in the appropriate state of mind/grace, no sacrament fails. Why would a properly conducted exorcism not be efficacious?
David, you're right about Jesus performing exorcisms in the gospels, especially Mark. I don't know why they aren't called sacraments, maybe they're more thought of as healings? There doesn't really seem to be language in Scripture for mental illness, or something like epilepsy. Except demonic possession does seem to be a real thing.
DeleteAs for an unsuccessful exorcism, maybe there is something in the person which hangs onto their state of possession, kind of like an addiction? I don't know, something to ponder.
" I don't know why they aren't called sacraments"
DeleteI did some train commuting this past weekend, and wiled away some of the time by researching this question (admittedly assisted by AI - it really is a time-saver). In Aquinas's view, exorcisms are not sacraments themselves, but they prepare us for reception of the sacraments by removing impediments. That is why a "minor" exorcism is integrated into the rites of baptism for infants and adults.
I don't know anything about the priest who is the subject of this post, save what I've read here. But I have noticed an uptick in 'chatter' among Catholics about demonic possession. I suspect the reason is that some of the newfangled Catholic apps are driving this. Maybe talk about the devil begets clicks?
ReplyDeleteI was on retreat last weekend with a group of deacons. We are liable to engage in our own form of 'chatter'. Among the gossip items I picked up was that my former auxiliary bushop (now the head of his own diocese) was the archdiocesan exorcist . He kept it secret, at least from me.
"Maybe talk about the devil begets clicks?". I think that is probably true, and it doesn't seem to me to be a healthy thing to be fixated on.
DeleteKatherine believes devils and demonic possessions are “real”. Do all of you believe in a literal devil? And in literal “demonic” possessions? Do you always read the Bible literally or do you read selectively - sometimes taking passages literally and other times metaphorically. I hope Jack chimes in since he’s the mental health expert. If the church is still promoting these ideas, it’s probably good that they don’t publicize it, as it would damage the church as a believable, trustworthy teacher in the eyes of millions. This story was reported in the WaPo unfortunately. I might now read it and the comments, which are usually enlightening about the response of readers. Many superstitious hangovers from earlier eras of the church (indulgences, exorcisms, miracle producing novenas etc) can damage the church’s credibility. The devil-promoting click-bait apps might be the work of the growing right-wing faction in the church. Maybe the church should adopt the Jefferson Bible.
DeleteFlip Wilson made “The devil made me do it” a famous excuse for doing something wrong, even though part of a comedy routine. The evil in the world is the work of humans with free will—not the devil. We humans have to take responsibility and not put blame an imaginary spirit figure.
I do not believe in the "fallen" angel who is known in Catholicism as Satan or "the devil, I do find the whole business among the most frightening subjects in religion or the supernatural. Satan (the adversary or the accuser) in the Old Testament is a member of the heavenly court, not the leader of a rebellion of angels. Lucifer in the Old Testament was definitely not Satan (see Jimmy Aiken, for example.
DeleteThis is not to say that bizarre and inexplicable things don't happen. But if the God of Jews and/or Christians exists as conventionally pictured, it is difficult for me to see a place for an archenemy as menacing and powerful as the devil as imagined in Catholic teaching. (I believe Judaism does not have the concept of Satan and fallen angels.)
Flip Wilson as Geraldine was hilarious!
Oh, dear. JD is farther gone than I realized. He doesn’t believe that UFOs are aliens - they’re demons.
DeleteFrom the WaPo story “Vice President JD Vance, a practicing Catholic, told “The Benny Show” podcast in April that he did not believe UFOs were aliens. I think they’re demons anyway, but that’s a longer discussion,” Vance said.”
Anne, what I believe about demons is that I don't know very much about the subject and I prefer to keep it that way. I do believe that angels had free will the same as humans, so theoretically some of them could have gone off the rails. The consensus seems to be that since they would have had knowledge and understanding that humans don't, that choice would have been a once and done thing. I don't know what I believe about that. Irregardless, I do believe that God is ultimately in charge, and if we put our faith and hope in him, we don't have to worry about fallen angels. Assuming they exist, I don't think they have to work very hard. They can sit on the sidelines eating popcorn, watching humans make a mess of things. If people are looking for trouble they can always find it.
DeleteGiven what is said in Scripture, and the more or less constant teaching of the church (not just Catholicism but most Christian denominations) I think it would be hubristic to dismiss the existence of fallen angels out of hand.
I do think some instances of possession in Scripture could be due to mental illness or epilepsy. As I mentioned before they didn't really have the language for those things. It is also possible for two things to be true at the same time.
Yes God - whatever or whoever - is in charge. But, as you say, since we humans really don’t know much, it seems irresponsible to encourage superstitious beliefs that have grown out of ancient lack of scientific knowledge. Teaching that saying certain prayers on certain days, or visiting certain shrines etc will buy off time in purgatory ( if it exists). Is God really transactional like trump? You say these words and I’ll give you what you want? Implying that relics have magical powers, or that demons possess people—instead of mental or physical illness, leading perhaps to people not getting the medical assistance that actually might help them. Having exorcists smacks of paganism and medicine men. The Anglican denominations teach the scriptures referring to demons and Satan metaphorically, not literally. The RCC would be wise to follow that example instead of encouraging superstition.
DeleteFor what it's worth, people who seek exorcism through diocesan channels are supposed to get medical and psychological evaluations prior to rule out physical or mental conditions.
DeletePalpable evil exists today, pre-eminently in the genocide in Gaza now being extended to Lebanon. Netanyahu is not an anomaly. The ongoing sadistic violence of Israel is the final trajectory of a movement forged in 19th century Europe, high on its white supremacy. If I were to write a possession story, I’d make the individual possession linked to some rising tide of hatred or false pride in the world as a kind of localized eruption.
DeleteI doubt it’s actually possible to rule out mental or physical influences. It’s simply that our knowledge base doesn’t yet include every possibility. When women were dying in droves after childbirth that medical knowledge data base didn’t yet include the understanding that medical students were infecting the women with invisible, previously unknown and unimagined pathogens after performing autopsies. It was thought that they died due to some kind of” bad air”. Professional pride caused doctors to reject the idea that they themselves were infecting women with invisible “ germs” on their hands. Poor Doctor Semmelweis was reviled and lost his job.
DeleteAttributing the world’s evil to possession by demons is a way of passing the buck and absolving people of personal responsibility. Is Netanyahu possessed by a demon? Was Hitler? Is trump? When individuals exhibit bizarre behavior like the girl in The Exorcist and someone actually calls an exorcist, possession by a demon seems like simply a desperate diagnosis when witnessing some extreme kind of behavior due to a not yet identified or understood mental/emotional illness.
Reading that Vance thinks UFOs aren’t aliens but might be demons is a bit frightening. The aliens hypothesis is far less frightening to me than a demon hypothesis. Not because I think UFOs are demons but because Vance does and might become president if trump passes away before 2028. He’s another pure hypocrite like Rubio and Cruz and Graham and a host of others but he seems less mentally unhinged than his boss—maybe not.
I don’t know if any of you are familiar with “The Toronto Blessing”. The church in Toronto still attracts thousands seeking a “charismatic” type of possession. Some say it was “ Holy” and that people were possessed by the Holy Spirit. Or were they possessed by demons? Or maybe simple possessed by a form of mass hysteria because they were actively seeking an experience of ….something? Here is a short video of the original event. What do you think?
Deletehttps://youtu.be/_P5B5Brz_lc?si=fS14dzy2RhH1ICFE
A great superstition is believing that trumps and hitlers and netanyahus are the source of the problem. If only evil were that localizable. If we could choke off aid to Israel, that would be an exorcism.
DeleteI hadn't heard of "The Toronto Blessing". Watching the video it basically seems like mass hysteria to me. I think St. Paul pretty much had it right in 1 Corinthians 13, "If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal..."
DeleteAbout JD Vance, I think he and the rest of Trump's syncophants do whatever they have to, to continue to sit at the "cool kids table". None of them have the Svengali effect that Trump does (I've never understood *why* he has it?) But even he is losing his mojo. Did any of you see footage from his interview with Kristen Welker on Meet the Press a couple of days ago?He just repeated himself over and over and spoke over Ms. Welker, and then threw a fit and got up and left. As one of my sisters put it, he was like a 45 record with a scratch, stuck in a groove.He reminded me of some old guy in a nursing home, playing bingo and ranting and raving because he isn't winning.
I brought up the Toronto Blessing because many thousands and thousands of people who are charismatics truly believe that it was “holy”. I see mass hysteria. What do people see when they call an exorcist - a demon possession or some kind of extreme mental illness? I don’t believe that it’s demonic possession, whether a family member or Netanyahu. The evil leaders we elect are not possessed by demons, nor are they the source of the evil, as Stanley notes. We who elect them are - they are the visible symptom and the source is hate, often prompted by greed. Jesus didn’t come to die on the cross in order to get a vengeful god to forgive human sin. He came to teach us, and he taught love. The Christian churches don’t often teach this — they focus on pelvic “sins”, ignoring the great commandments to love, especially as embodied in the RCC's social justice teachings—ignored by most priests and bishops who prefer to focus on abortion and LGBTQ issues.
DeleteTrump has been repeating himself over and over and acting like a toddler throwing tantrums for a very long time. I still remember his tantrum when his second rate reality show didn’t win an Emmy. I initially thought he was joking, but he wasn’t. He is clinically mentally ill and this has been apparent for years. But there are evil people, prompted by greed and hate, who have used him to achieve their goals. He isn’t possessed by a demon but he is mentally ill. I don’t know if you’ve read many of his middle of the night tweeting sprees when he tweets inanities and hate dozens of times on “Truth” Social in a few hours, usually in the middle of the night. He is needed by the true evil actors in our country, most of whom aren’t well known. The tragedy is that those in the MAGA cult, including 60% of white Catholics and the majority of clergy, aren’t bothered by any of it. He hates immigrants, people of color, and Muslims and so do they although few admit it.. They want to punish desperate women who get pregnant and force their personal religious beliefs on them while refusing to pay enough taxes to help support these women if they are forced to give birth.
I don’t see any Christian love in any of this. The churches have failed to teach love, and hate rules our country and the world.
I don't read his middle of the night tweets. He is mentally ill, but the middle of the night ranting and raving, and then falling asleep in a cabinet meeting during the day, is "sundowning", a symptom of dementia. His syncophants are playing " Weekend at Bernie's" to advance their own agendas. I think Stephen Miller is one of the worst actors in that crowd.
DeleteI am not quite as hard on Christians as you are. Most people are a mixture of good and flaws. A lot of Maga types would treat people they actually meet in real life with kindness, and help them if they were able. But they project, and vilify "those people out there" whom they have never met. I am related to some of those people.
Things such as our Corpus Christi event yesterday with people praying in two languages are encouraging. A lot of Anglos were in the crowd too. One of our priests is from Nigeria. People in our old Polish and German parishes are adjusting to praying with people who aren't like them.
I have been a little concerned that ICE could show up in our town and cause trouble, but I think we are too small to bother with.
I may vote Democrat in the coming election if only to have more chaos in the ensuing fight between the Democrats and Trump. I have no faith in the Democrats as representatives of the people. It’s only because if the Crips and the Bloods are fighting each other, they’ll have less time to mug the rest of us. Maybe it’ll create space for a real revolution. The first one was of, for and by the rich white men. The second should be of, for and by the people.
Delete"indulgences, exorcisms, miracle producing novenas etc"
DeleteI can't speak to miracle producing novenas. I do know that indulgences and exorcisms (as well as possession) are real in the church's eyes.
Yes - the church teaches that stuff. But maybe it’s overdue time for letting go of the superstitious stuff.
DeleteExcept maybe it's not all superstitious stuff.
DeleteUnrelated, today is Corpus Christi Sunday, the Feast of the Body and Blood of Christ. For the past several years there has been an outdoor procession in the afternoon of this feast, rotated among the three parishes in town. This year the plan was to process from St. Bonaventure's church to St. Anthony's, 10 blocks, with a pedestrian railroad overpass in the middle. Seemed a little performative to me, but okay. I and several other choir people stayed at St. Anthony's to provide music when the procession got there. It was to take place after the Spanish Mass at St. Bon's. The weather was a little iffy, and I thought the crowd would be sparse. It wasn't. They filled up the church. A lot of them were Hispanic, having just left that Mass. The crowd said the rosary coming over, alternating the prayers in Spanish and English. The clergy were vested, carrying a monstrance and swinging a censer, it would have been a hot walk. But it seemed to work, the crowd were joyful.
ReplyDeleteWe did a procession yesterday, too. This is the second year we did it. It was introduced into our parish by a Polish priest (who has subsequently left our parish, and the priesthood(!)). HIs dream was that it would be like Katherine's: we'd process through the neighborbood, possibly including getting the police to block traffic on the major thoroughfare on which our parish is situated. But for now, we just process around the parish grounds. It took us about 45 minutes to do the procession plus a benediction ceremony back in church. I carried the censor and the incense boast, and proclaimed the Gospel at one of the four "stations" along the way. We had about 300 people each of the last two years. It's kind of a new experience for me, but I'm enjoying it, and getting some spiritual goodness from it.
DeleteYou say many were Hispanic and the crowd was joyful. This is what I have observed at Spanish masses - a lot of joy. The English language mass crowds aren’t joyful and I seriously doubt that the a Latin mass crowd exudes joy. Perhaps the white European- descended people could learn something from the Hispanic Catholics.
ReplyDeleteI agree! I'm told, or I've read, the dour Anglo attitude is from the Irish American influence in the American church. My Irish American family definitely contributed its share of dourness:-)
DeleteI do think we impassive Catholics of Northern European descent experience holy joy, but we're not as expressive of it.
DeletePerhaps psychologists would say it would be good for us Northern European Catholic types if we were a bit more open in our emotions?
Jim, it makes me think of what my Scots Irish grandma said, "I cherish my inhibitions!" But I would have called her a joyful person, she just had a different way of expressing it.
DeleteOne of the stated goals of the procession was evangelization in the neighborhood. But maybe what we actually accomplished was evangelizing one another.
Personally, I prefer silent prayer to any kind of verbal prayer including singing. That’s why I’m not that interested in liturgy or going to mass. A small group and silent prayer— that’s my preferred group worship style. I mention the outward expression of joy of Hispanics at mass partly because so many euro- Catholics not only don’t pray the same way (with outward joy), they seem to reject Hispanics partly because of the culture - not just the skin color. I knew white Catholics in my old parish who were upset that there was ( still is) a mass in Spanish, and were also uncomfortable when there was a (once/ year only) pulpit exchange with a black parish downtown- and their ( amazing) soul music choir. The whites weren’t comfortable with these expressions of liturgy and that may feed into why so many voted for trump.
DeleteJim, I only knew two Irish relatives - my mom and her mom. My mom definitely leaned Jansenist. I don’t know about my grandmother because I didn’t know her well. My German heritage dad and his sister were also both dour.
DeleteI am not Hispanic or African or other heritage and I am not expressive in prayer the way they are. But I was very impressed with that joy when I was in the Dominican Republic, joy expressed during mass with music using their native instruments, songs that were their style, and liturgical dance. We spent days visiting villages with the bishop, the poorest places I ever been. The 30 year olds, especially the women who were worn out from having given birth to 10 or 15 kids by then and saw many of them die, looked older than I was then (I was 51- they looked 60 or older). They were so very thin, had strange medical conditions like goiters, many had no teeth. They slept on mats on the dirt floor of their one room shacks. Yet they were joyful in a way that I have never seen in a euro- descended American. So I enjoyed (felt joy) participating in their liturgies even though I didn’t understand the language and didn’t feel part of the culture— I was a white foreigner but their joy was contagious. But for my personal prayer, prefer silence.
If it weren’t for the political conservatism being associated with the Latin mass crowd, I would say just reflect your parish- a Latin mass, an English mass, a Spanish mass etc. Most RC parishes have multiple masses so they could do that.
Just curious about attitudes and comments here, maybe some pov's I am missing:
ReplyDeleteIf we believe that there is a God who is a great good force in the universe, why do we dismiss the notion of the Devil as a superstition? IMO, there is more "evidence" for the latter in human behavior. A tiresome but persuasive example: We can't cure everybody's cancer yet, and when we can, we sure won't do it for free. But we've had weapons tech that could wipe out all life many times over for 80 years.
Why do we think that emotive and noisy joy is somehow better than joy that is silent? Why do we assume that there is something wrong or repressed about non-demonstrative people?
I think both ways are good. Neither is better. I am not Hispanic and maybe I shouldn’t pretend to be. I am a full blown pessimist (Polish?) at the moment. I identify with quietude. Yet I believe that Love is the creative furnace. So I trudge onward. I see people on Substack that fell away from the faith. But they are reaching back to the categories of that faith in describing the genocides in the Middle East and the atrocities of the US. “Demonic”, “satanic”. To paraphrase a cartoon I once read, “Is there a Satan?” “There is now.”
DeleteI don't dismiss the idea of the devil. There are lot of things we don't understand.
DeletePeople like me who are of Scandinavian descent are not exactly known for our emotive expression! But we have our own strengths. I agree that that there are many kinds of joy, and one way of expressing it it not necessarily better than another.
We do seem to have a lot of misplaced priorities, such as choosing to make weapons of mass destruction. You are right that we surely don't choose to cure illness for free.
There is indeed much ( really everything) that we don’t understand. We create theologies to try to do that. But we really don’t know. Creating a devil helps to explain evil. The problem of theodicy will never be explained. If God is good and loves humanity, why permit so much evil and suffering.? Easier to blame a devil than God, and also easier to blame a devil than to blame our human free will.
ReplyDeleteIf we believe that there is a God who is a great good force in the universe, why do we dismiss the notion of the Devil as a superstition?
ReplyDeleteI have heard it asserted that the sorry state of humankind makes the Christian doctrine of "the Fall" or Original Sin tantamount to self-evident. But of course for there to have been a "fall," it is necessary to believe that humans started out in an "unfallen" state and something went wrong that tainted all of humanity. In other words, it is necessary to believe the story of Adam and Eve, no matter how figurative or symbolic the account may be, is historical. The Catechism says, "The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event." (CCC 390) The primeval event is that some (two?) humans were created in an "unfallen" state, and they (of their own free will) committed some act that forever tainted themselves and humanity. Why is that easier to believe than that humans evolved with similar flaws to all other animals?
There have been only three human beings free from Original Sin, the first two being Adam and Eve, whose bad behavior damaged the entire human race, and Mary the Mother of Jesus, who is exulted above all other humans. That is difficult to understand.
Jews do not believe in Satan or the devil and they seem to have no problem accounting for imperfect human beings.
I believe in original sin. I just don't believe in original innocence, at least not since we evolved to have the power of reason and free will. Because I think it was inevitable that we would abuse those things.
DeleteKatherine, do you believe in a literal Adam and Eve who disobeyed God?
DeleteI think Genesis is allegorical rather than a historical work.
DeleteSo you think God created human beings to be sinful and there was no fall?
DeleteIt's just that it's hard to fall when you're already flat on the ground. I don't think God made humans to be sinful. I think he made them to survive. In the long slog of evolution, survival wasn't always pretty. So in that sense, we were sinful.
DeleteThere was interesting research a few years back about a "mitochondrial Eve": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve
DeleteAccording to that, all humans have the mitochondrial DNA of a woman who lived about 200,000 years ago. Mitochondrial DNA is only from the female line. But I don't think she could be called " mother of all the living", because we know there were modern humans around before that time, and that there were other humans existing at that same time. So interesting research, but doesn't really prove anything.
What do you mean by “original sin”? The church teaches that every human is born with sin and that baptism is needed to wash it away. That was why they invented limbo years ago — a place for unbaptized babies who died to be for all eternity since their “ sin” hadn’t been erased by. Baptism before death, asking them ineligible for “ heaven”. Now that they’ve done away with limbo I’m not sure what the church teaches about the fate of unbaptized babies with sin at birth.
DeleteMaking them ineligible for heaven ( dying before baptism). Not “asking”
DeleteI had a brother who died shortly after birth. He was between me (the oldest) and the next oldest brother. The priest told my parents that they would have had him baptized if he had lived long enough, and to just trust him to the care of God. He has a little stone in the family plot, and we always put flowers there on Memorial Day.
DeleteAbout Limbo, that's a subject for another day. It was said to be a place of natural happiness. I'm not so sure that it's an illogical concept. Not for unbaptized babies though, everyone assumes they're in heaven now.
If the unbaptized babies are in heaven then who is in limbo? I guess nobody since the church did away with limbo some years ago. At least I thought it did. I guess I’ll google limbo. I had thought it let indulgences die a quiet death. It then they came roaring back, unfortunately .
DeleteNope - limbo is gone .
Delete“ a place of natural happiness”. But the church teaches that souls don’t live on in places but exist in a spiritual state of relationship with God or in a state unconnected to God
DeleteDavid —“ Why is that ( “ the fall” easier to believe than that humans evolved with similar flaws to all other animals?”.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I think that seems closer to reality, especially since the story of Adam and Eve isn’t about two individual real historical humans who were the ancestors of the billions of human who have lived.
The Adam-and-Eve story could represent the "moment" in evolution when the human brain moved beyond the animal pursuit of survival and reproduction. In that interpretation, the Devil was hoping to fill us up on pride and arrogance because that would make us more interesting, like a dog fight. God saw that knowledge of Good and Evil and empathy could come from our improved human consciousness.
ReplyDeleteGod sent Jesus and the Saints (and others outside Christianity, I am sure), to provide signposts for improving decency and discernment.
The Devil sent money, IQ tests, and McMansions to serve as bogus yardsticks for human worth, like in the Prosperity Gospel.
It doesn't come down to two innocent people suddenly corrupted to a fallen state for me.
I'm not really worried about God or the Devil as real entities. But it's interesting to play around with with the myths and see if they can stretch to accommodate modern or non-literalist sensibilities. That's my stab at it.
Jean, your theory makes as much sense as anyone else's.
Delete