"And I want to just thank everybody. And, in particular, God. I want to just say, we love you, God, and we love our great military. Protect them. God bless the Middle East. God bless Israel and God bless America. Thank you very much. Thank you."
Well he got his big beautiful parade. Now he has an unforced error, his own big beautiful war that he didn't inherit. So much for an end to forever wars. It doesn't appear that he consulted with anyone, and in fact ignored his own SecDef. Congress wasn't consulted. Constitutional authority? Pffft!
Pope Leo this morning: "Every member of the international community has a moral responsibility: to stop the tragedy of war before it becomes an irreparable abyss," Pope Leo said during his weekly prayer with pilgrims. " "No armed victory can compensate for the pain of mothers, the fear of children, the stolen future. Let diplomacy silence the weapons, let nations chart their future with peace efforts, not with violence and bloody conflicts," he added. Doesn't appear that anyone is listening, it seems already to be an irreparable abyss.
O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle — be Thou near them! With them — in spirit — we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe.
O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it — for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet!
We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts.
Good analysis of Iran's allies, such as they are, and how this might play out. Am guessing that Pakistan is rethinking its reported plan to nominate Trump for a Nobel Peace Prize.
This country has zero moral stature and does not have the standing to tell anyone what to do or to bomb anyone. It’s not that we used to be good and now we’re bad, gone astray. I hate to say it but this has always been a major part of our country’s makeup. It’s just coming to a final denouement.
We are a nation that attracts and nurtures exploiters, con men, and religious fanatics. We do have an admirable constitutional system if we have the will to follow it and hold leaders accountable.
We need to reassess what benefits we get from supporting Israel, especially when a thug like Netanyahu is at the helm.
I wish the "Taco" thing hadn't got started. "Trump always chickens out". It was like a dare. You can't chicken out of dropping a bomb and getting into a war when you've already done it. He had to prove himself to be the king of the hill.
I do think the TACO thing might have actually played a part in his decision. He absolutely hates being mocked, especially when he thinks it’s an insult to his “manhood”. All of his macho posturing, his admiration for “ tough” guys, his need to surround himself with beautiful women, dumping wives as he ( and they) age all seem point to some possible insecurities about his masculinity.
The Mark Twain story and prayer is powerful. I had not heard of it before. I looked it up and according to wiki, he ordered that it not be published until after his death. He feared reprisals apparently.
For many years I have struggled with the “ just war” theology. . We are (or weren’t - maybe are now) directly threatened by Iran, so bombing them surely does not meet “just war” standards. Does attempting to prevent a worse war meet them? That might be that notable Catholic Vance’s defense of this bombing.
I have long thought that war is never justified. Except, except….how is a totally evil person like Hitler stopped - without going to war?
Gandhi brought about change in India with minimal violence. Not minimal enough on the English side though for a long time. Eventually Gandhi’s campaign of non- violence did win. But his tactics would not have worked against Hitler, or Stalin or….many other tyrants.
Iran is far from being Hitler. Judging by their fruits, Israel is more similar to Nazi Germany, and, with their ruthless dedication to Israeli expansion while having nuclear weapons, pose a greater threat to the world than Iran. Iran showed restraint while Israel is out of control. As for Hitler, he might have been preemptively stopped by the WWI victors acting more graciously after the war. Even after Germany surrendered, Britain prevented food entering Germany causing starvation and death in the populace. The Germans remembered. As for Iran, we overthrew their secular democratic regime in the 50’s at the behest of British oil interests. It would be best if we started tending to the needs of our own people, and stop fomenting disorder throughout the world.
"It would be best if we started tending to the needs of our own people, and stop fomenting disorder throughout the world." I would agree with that, and while we're at it, put back USAID and try to actually help some people who aren't us. It was a minimal part of our budget One of the things Trump ran on was "no more forever wars". Of course it was a lie and a gigantic bait and switch like everything he says.
"Tend to our own needs," yes. One of those needs is curbing religious nuts currently banning books. It makes me laugh when the MAGAs jabber about freedom and then do this stuff:
Trump is a turd, and I have a visceral reaction against everything he does and says. However, a case might be made for destroying Iran's uranium refining plants:
If international oversight was not working.
If Iran was capable and willing to supply rogue groups with weapons.
If destroying refineries prevented Israelis from causing catastrophic collateral damage and death in civilian areas.
If taking out uranium refineries has a good chance of bringing Iran to the conclusion that it cannot continue to foment instability through Hamas, Hezbollah, and similar thru out the region.
But neither Trump or his idiots seem capable of making that case.
They are already backing off the claim that they destroyed any potential nuclear capability. The latest rumors are that Iran moved them well before the attacks.
I am interested in just war teachings because I am wondering if preventing something worse when not attacked directly qualifies as “ just”.
I have no idea how much of a threat to the world Iran might be. Definitely not in the Nazi era or Russian takeover of Eastern Europe realms in the 1930s and 1940s. As far as our actions go, my fears are based in my total lack of trust in the ability of trump and his sycophant minions to make rational decisions.
Yes, I understand the lack of trust. Republicans have lost all credibility as responsible decision makers by cleaving to a character like Trump. Trump never answers the questions that reasonable people might raise and expect to get answers to. He just makes noise.
Imo, there should have been some tough talk with Israel before we sent the bunker blasters: "We're not taking out the refineries unless you cease bombing Iran. You're running amok with weapons we provide, and your salt-the-earth tactics are making us look bad."
In my view, the just-war doctrine offers good general guidelines, but isn't always helpful in specific situations. War invites a lot of "did we actually prevent something worse" second-guessing for which there are never definitive answers.
I also don't think it's helpful to apply some kind of "are they as bad as Hitler?" standard. What constitutes "as bad as Hitler"?
Hitler wanted to rule Europe and all of its countries, including Russia. He hoped to then attack the US. His attempts to achieve this goal resulted in millions of military and civilian deaths, and he used the most reprehensible means possible to eliminate undesirables - Jews, homosexuals, children born with congenital disabilities .the Roma people, old and infirm people. I don’t see Iran having similar ambitions. I don’t even see Israel having ambitions of the same scope. They want to eliminate Hamas and Hezbollah and others they see as out to destroy them but they don’t seem to want to kill all Palestinians or take control of the entire Middle East . But who knows - Netanyahu is pretty evil and we’re supporting him.
Yes, I understand what Hitler did. But do we have to wait for a country to go that far before we take up arms against it?
I'm not advocating for going to war with Iran or even countenancing the military strikes. Just saying there may be a reasonable case to be made, and Trump is not making it. Chalk up another of his many many disservices to the public.
Agree. We should not wait until we reach the Hitler danger tipping point. Im grateful that I don’t have to make these decisions and I honestly don’t know enough, or have enough real data, to judge the current action. I do know that I don’t trust Trump nor any of his high level military and national security staff. I’m not sure that any of them are more knowledgeable than I am or better qualified to decide when it’s appropriate to drop bombs on other countries. Trump is driven by politics and polls. He’s unhappy with the latest polls. Bombing Iran is a great distraction to take the media focus off his many current failing policies and falling approval ratings. That scares me a lot.
This Brookings paper from 2013 may be of interest. It's comparatively short and readable. Written during President Obama's 2nd term when he was using diplomacy to try to stop or at least delay Iran's becoming a nuclear power, it looks at the Iran/Iraq War of the 1980s as a seminal event that set Middle East perceptions of the US as a trustworthy or untrustworthy partner. It seems positively prophetic in certain passages. Worth a read.
The Brookings piece has colored my views of what a likely outcome is of the US's intervention against Iran. Considering that President Trump is at the helm, I think it's likely enough that both Iran and the Israel will end up concluding that the US is an untrustworthy partner.
“In November 2013, Donald Trump tweeted, "Remember that I predicted a long time ago that President Obama will attack Iran because of his inability to negotiate properly—not skilled!".
I don't know to what extent the State Department, since the DOGE purge, still has regional experts who can brief the administration on the historical perspectives. And even if it does, Trump is breathtakingly incurious about that type of info and won't sit still for briefings. He lives from one "what I want right now" moment to the next.
It was interesting to watch JD Vance during's Trump's three-minute address. While Hegseth and Rubio were nodding away at key points, Vance looked pretty grim. His political career could conceivably last decades beyond Trump's death. He may not be quite so impervious to ramifications.
One clings to whatever shreds of hope one can muster ...
I've been contemplating starting a separate thread on this topic, but in brief:
* If the American attack has delayed, or even destroyed, Iran's ability to create nuclear weapons, then that is surely a desirable outcome.
* As we understand the outcome of the attack today, the sheer competence of the American military operation can only further increase its prestige in the international community. I don't think any of us here are hawks, but it has to be thought desirable for America's adversaries to fear our military.
* Regardless of whether or not we think the attack was prudent, we should be concerned that Trump apparently went about the attack illegally. As I understand it, the War Powers Act gives the president some authority to engage against an adversary without requiring a formal Congressional declaration of war. But that Act requires that the president obtain Congress's authorization prior to taking action. Trump did not do so, despite having ample time to do so, and despite the Pentagon pretty clearly having spent considerable time planning this operation.
* Is it possible to apply the traditional just war criteria to this US action against Iran's nuclear weapon capability? I think that depends on if you believe the US and Iran already have been in some sort of a long-simmering, low-level proxy war already. Both sides have engaged in various acts of provocation, including (on Iran's side) attacks against our troops, attacks on commercial activity, cyber-attacks, and of course, if one's memory is long enough, the taking of American hostages; and on the US's part, assassinations and the imposition of economic sanctions, as well as whatever we did for and against Iran during the Iran/Iraq war (cf my previous comment). And of course, Iran has, through its proxies Hamas and Hezbollah, been waging war on our ally Israel for decades. Personally, I don't think Iran's theocratic leadership is trustworthy, and President Trump's determination that Iran shouldn't be allowed to achieve nuclear weaponry is strategically correct and morally right.
Eh. I'm not at all convinced that the attack destroyed Iran's capability to create nuclear weapons. If the Pentagon spent a lot of time planning this operation, so did Iran spend a lot of time figuring out how to protect its nuclear capabilities from this kind of attack. Given that the administration gutted it's intelligence agencies and appointed incompetents as leaders of them, and alienated our allies who might have given us information why would anyone conclude that we had accurate information?
Off topic: Stay safe in the heat. This should be the last overnight with lows around 80, at least until the next heat dome builds in later July. It's been over 95 for three days. And as if we don't have enough depressing news, here's some gummint info on heat related death. Not sure how info about climate change is slipping thru. Must be purging the gay stuff first. Read it while you still can.
I just went out to get the mail. It’s a steambath. “Only”94 now, feels like 105 according to the weather app. I believe it. Tomorrow it’s supposed to hit 100 with a feels like temp of 108. You’re not alone there in the Midwest . We’re getting it too.
Well he got his big beautiful parade. Now he has an unforced error, his own big beautiful war that he didn't inherit. So much for an end to forever wars. It doesn't appear that he consulted with anyone, and in fact ignored his own SecDef. Congress wasn't consulted. Constitutional authority? Pffft!
ReplyDeletePope Leo this morning:
Delete"Every member of the international community has a moral responsibility: to stop the tragedy of war before it becomes an irreparable abyss," Pope Leo said during his weekly prayer with pilgrims. "
"No armed victory can compensate for the pain of mothers, the fear of children, the stolen future. Let diplomacy silence the weapons, let nations chart their future with peace efforts, not with violence and bloody conflicts," he added.
Doesn't appear that anyone is listening, it seems already to be an irreparable abyss.
O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle — be Thou near them! With them — in spirit — we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe.
ReplyDeleteO Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it — for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet!
We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts.
Amen.
--Mark Twain
Good analysis of Iran's allies, such as they are, and how this might play out. Am guessing that Pakistan is rethinking its reported plan to nominate Trump for a Nobel Peace Prize.
ReplyDeletehttps://theconversation.com/who-are-irans-allies-and-would-any-help-if-the-us-joins-israel-in-its-war-259265
This country has zero moral stature and does not have the standing to tell anyone what to do or to bomb anyone. It’s not that we used to be good and now we’re bad, gone astray. I hate to say it but this has always been a major part of our country’s makeup. It’s just coming to a final denouement.
ReplyDeleteWe are a nation that attracts and nurtures exploiters, con men, and religious fanatics. We do have an admirable constitutional system if we have the will to follow it and hold leaders accountable.
DeleteWe need to reassess what benefits we get from supporting Israel, especially when a thug like Netanyahu is at the helm.
I wish the "Taco" thing hadn't got started. "Trump always chickens out". It was like a dare. You can't chicken out of dropping a bomb and getting into a war when you've already done it. He had to prove himself to be the king of the hill.
ReplyDeleteI do think the TACO thing might have actually played a part in his decision. He absolutely hates being mocked, especially when he thinks it’s an insult to his “manhood”. All of his macho posturing, his admiration for “ tough” guys, his need to surround himself with beautiful women, dumping wives as he ( and they) age all seem point to some possible insecurities about his masculinity.
DeleteThe Mark Twain story and prayer is powerful. I had not heard of it before. I looked it up and according to wiki, he ordered that it not be published until after his death. He feared reprisals apparently.
For many years I have struggled with the “ just war” theology. . We are (or weren’t - maybe are now) directly threatened by Iran, so bombing them surely does not meet “just war” standards. Does attempting to prevent a worse war meet them? That might be that notable Catholic Vance’s defense of this bombing.
I have long thought that war is never justified. Except, except….how is a totally evil person like Hitler stopped - without going to war?
Gandhi brought about change in India with minimal violence. Not minimal enough on the English side though for a long time. Eventually Gandhi’s campaign of non- violence did win. But his tactics would not have worked against Hitler, or Stalin or….many other tyrants.
Iran is far from being Hitler. Judging by their fruits, Israel is more similar to Nazi Germany, and, with their ruthless dedication to Israeli expansion while having nuclear weapons, pose a greater threat to the world than Iran. Iran showed restraint while Israel is out of control. As for Hitler, he might have been preemptively stopped by the WWI victors acting more graciously after the war. Even after Germany surrendered, Britain prevented food entering Germany causing starvation and death in the populace. The Germans remembered. As for Iran, we overthrew their secular democratic regime in the 50’s at the behest of British oil interests. It would be best if we started tending to the needs of our own people, and stop fomenting disorder throughout the world.
Delete"It would be best if we started tending to the needs of our own people, and stop fomenting disorder throughout the world."
DeleteI would agree with that, and while we're at it, put back USAID and try to actually help some people who aren't us. It was a minimal part of our budget
One of the things Trump ran on was "no more forever wars". Of course it was a lie and a gigantic bait and switch like everything he says.
"Tend to our own needs," yes. One of those needs is curbing religious nuts currently banning books. It makes me laugh when the MAGAs jabber about freedom and then do this stuff:
Deletehttps://pen.org/magic-tree-house-author-calvin-and-hobbes-among-hundreds-of-tennessee-book-bans/
Trump is a turd, and I have a visceral reaction against everything he does and says. However, a case might be made for destroying Iran's uranium refining plants:
ReplyDeleteIf international oversight was not working.
If Iran was capable and willing to supply rogue groups with weapons.
If destroying refineries prevented Israelis from causing catastrophic collateral damage and death in civilian areas.
If taking out uranium refineries has a good chance of bringing Iran to the conclusion that it cannot continue to foment instability through Hamas, Hezbollah, and similar thru out the region.
But neither Trump or his idiots seem capable of making that case.
They are already backing off the claim that they destroyed any potential nuclear capability. The latest rumors are that Iran moved them well before the attacks.
DeleteI am interested in just war teachings because I am wondering if preventing something worse when not attacked directly qualifies as “ just”.
I have no idea how much of a threat to the world Iran might be. Definitely not in the Nazi era or Russian takeover of Eastern Europe realms in the 1930s and 1940s. As far as our actions go, my fears are based in my total lack of trust in the ability of trump and his sycophant minions to make rational decisions.
Yes, I understand the lack of trust. Republicans have lost all credibility as responsible decision makers by cleaving to a character like Trump. Trump never answers the questions that reasonable people might raise and expect to get answers to. He just makes noise.
DeleteImo, there should have been some tough talk with Israel before we sent the bunker blasters: "We're not taking out the refineries unless you cease bombing Iran. You're running amok with weapons we provide, and your salt-the-earth tactics are making us look bad."
In my view, the just-war doctrine offers good general guidelines, but isn't always helpful in specific situations. War invites a lot of "did we actually prevent something worse" second-guessing for which there are never definitive answers.
I also don't think it's helpful to apply some kind of "are they as bad as Hitler?" standard. What constitutes "as bad as Hitler"?
Hitler wanted to rule Europe and all of its countries, including Russia. He hoped to then attack the US. His attempts to achieve this goal resulted in millions of military and civilian deaths, and he used the most reprehensible means possible to eliminate undesirables - Jews, homosexuals, children born with congenital disabilities .the Roma people, old and infirm people. I don’t see Iran having similar ambitions. I don’t even see Israel having ambitions of the same scope. They want to eliminate Hamas and Hezbollah and others they see as out to destroy them but they don’t seem to want to kill all Palestinians or take control of the entire Middle East . But who knows - Netanyahu is pretty evil and we’re supporting him.
DeleteYes, I understand what Hitler did. But do we have to wait for a country to go that far before we take up arms against it?
DeleteI'm not advocating for going to war with Iran or even countenancing the military strikes. Just saying there may be a reasonable case to be made, and Trump is not making it. Chalk up another of his many many disservices to the public.
Agree. We should not wait until we reach the Hitler danger tipping point. Im grateful that I don’t have to make these decisions and I honestly don’t know enough, or have enough real data, to judge the current action. I do know that I don’t trust Trump nor any of his high level military and national security staff. I’m not sure that any of them are more knowledgeable than I am or better qualified to decide when it’s appropriate to drop bombs on other countries. Trump is driven by politics and polls. He’s unhappy with the latest polls. Bombing Iran is a great distraction to take the media focus off his many current failing policies and falling approval ratings. That scares me a lot.
DeleteThis Brookings paper from 2013 may be of interest. It's comparatively short and readable. Written during President Obama's 2nd term when he was using diplomacy to try to stop or at least delay Iran's becoming a nuclear power, it looks at the Iran/Iraq War of the 1980s as a seminal event that set Middle East perceptions of the US as a trustworthy or untrustworthy partner. It seems positively prophetic in certain passages. Worth a read.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.brookings.edu/articles/lessons-from-americas-first-war-with-iran/#:~:text=President%20Barack%20Obama%20has%20committed,how%20to%20deal%20with%20Tehran.
The Brookings piece has colored my views of what a likely outcome is of the US's intervention against Iran. Considering that President Trump is at the helm, I think it's likely enough that both Iran and the Israel will end up concluding that the US is an untrustworthy partner.
“In November 2013, Donald Trump tweeted, "Remember that I predicted a long time ago that President Obama will attack Iran because of his inability to negotiate properly—not skilled!".
DeleteThanks, Jim.
DeleteI don't know to what extent the State Department, since the DOGE purge, still has regional experts who can brief the administration on the historical perspectives. And even if it does, Trump is breathtakingly incurious about that type of info and won't sit still for briefings. He lives from one "what I want right now" moment to the next.
It was interesting to watch JD Vance during's Trump's three-minute address. While Hegseth and Rubio were nodding away at key points, Vance looked pretty grim. His political career could conceivably last decades beyond Trump's death. He may not be quite so impervious to ramifications.
One clings to whatever shreds of hope one can muster ...
I've been contemplating starting a separate thread on this topic, but in brief:
ReplyDelete* If the American attack has delayed, or even destroyed, Iran's ability to create nuclear weapons, then that is surely a desirable outcome.
* As we understand the outcome of the attack today, the sheer competence of the American military operation can only further increase its prestige in the international community. I don't think any of us here are hawks, but it has to be thought desirable for America's adversaries to fear our military.
* Regardless of whether or not we think the attack was prudent, we should be concerned that Trump apparently went about the attack illegally. As I understand it, the War Powers Act gives the president some authority to engage against an adversary without requiring a formal Congressional declaration of war. But that Act requires that the president obtain Congress's authorization prior to taking action. Trump did not do so, despite having ample time to do so, and despite the Pentagon pretty clearly having spent considerable time planning this operation.
* Is it possible to apply the traditional just war criteria to this US action against Iran's nuclear weapon capability? I think that depends on if you believe the US and Iran already have been in some sort of a long-simmering, low-level proxy war already. Both sides have engaged in various acts of provocation, including (on Iran's side) attacks against our troops, attacks on commercial activity, cyber-attacks, and of course, if one's memory is long enough, the taking of American hostages; and on the US's part, assassinations and the imposition of economic sanctions, as well as whatever we did for and against Iran during the Iran/Iraq war (cf my previous comment). And of course, Iran has, through its proxies Hamas and Hezbollah, been waging war on our ally Israel for decades. Personally, I don't think Iran's theocratic leadership is trustworthy, and President Trump's determination that Iran shouldn't be allowed to achieve nuclear weaponry is strategically correct and morally right.
Eh. I'm not at all convinced that the attack destroyed Iran's capability to create nuclear weapons. If the Pentagon spent a lot of time planning this operation, so did Iran spend a lot of time figuring out how to protect its nuclear capabilities from this kind of attack. Given that the administration gutted it's intelligence agencies and appointed incompetents as leaders of them, and alienated our allies who might have given us information why would anyone conclude that we had accurate information?
DeleteYup
DeleteFirst Qatar, with the largest American base in the Mideast. Now Iran has also attacked the US presence in Iraq. Where will this end?
ReplyDeleteActually the sources reporting an attack on American sites in Iraq don’t seem reliable. There is nothing about this in reliable sources so far.
DeleteOff topic: Stay safe in the heat. This should be the last overnight with lows around 80, at least until the next heat dome builds in later July. It's been over 95 for three days. And as if we don't have enough depressing news, here's some gummint info on heat related death. Not sure how info about climate change is slipping thru. Must be purging the gay stuff first. Read it while you still can.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.epa.gov/climate-indicators/climate-change-indicators-heat-related-deaths
I just went out to get the mail. It’s a steambath. “Only”94 now, feels like 105 according to the weather app. I believe it. Tomorrow it’s supposed to hit 100 with a feels like temp of 108. You’re not alone there in the Midwest . We’re getting it too.
Delete